The question of Israel

[nativeastral]

hi BB

l hope that you are not presuming l am a 'jew hater' because of my posts! Unfortunately human nature [still] seems to revel in 'us and them' and the judaic religion epitomises such a reaction through its barriers of interaction; its what makes it distinct and 'set apart'. l had no idea how bad antisemitism is where you live but l do know here many people are pro palestinian because of what is on the media [that they are a poor pawn and Israel is supported by the West indiscriminately] but perhaps it goes deeper and as you say static from the past [christian v judaism]; personally l cannot stand bigotry.
My observations were purely general concerning warfare and the b*****d mentality of modern politics in general [l am a mother but even if l wasn't l still abhor violence in any shape or form].
You are right to ask for specifics concerning such a complex convoluted subject and for those to rationialize assertions; as an irrational female with barely any historical accuracy of the detailed ins and outs of the pre and post modern nation state of Israel l will bow out of this one [unless my irrational *generalisations* are welcome].

 

[Avi]

Nativeastral,

I think your questions and comments are completely reasonable and are welcome.

I have some preconceived notions about Christianity, Islam and other religions and philosophies which I would like to, and will ask about. Some of my questions might be naive or even wrong. But as you do, I will show respect for these religions and philosophies.

What offended me was when a poster starts off making nasty jokes, and when he is told that those jokes are not funny, and then keeps making them. That coupled with race baiting needs to be met with an appropriate response.

Actually, the quote that you posted from the Talmud was very interesting. As I told you, I have some doubts about its authenticity. But it was worthy of further consideration.

I hope you will not be dissuaded from interesting discussion because of another insensitive poster.

 

[Bandit]

Avi, are you Jewish? It is my experience that if anyone hates what I believe and express in public forums about Israel it is Jewish people who are the first ones to try to shut me up. Anti-Zionists are branded as Nazis and worse yet what we are are people who are standing up for native people's right not to be invaded, occupied and oppressed by foreign invaders.

The more this continues to happen as it does the more I become convinced the Jewish Cult produces mental illness in the form of paranoia of Gentiles, a paranoia that follows the Jewish mindset wherever it goes, e.g. even here in America where Jews have never been singled out for persecution in over 230 years of America's existence as a homeland for people persecuted for their religious or political beliefs in their own homelands. In other words, your paranoia of me is very inappropriate behavior and is leading you to vilification of me without you really knowing what my beliefs are as Brian has attempted to tell you.

I have to repeat this again and again because it seems to never sink into Zionist Jewish minds that non-Jews are not under any moral obligation to like Judaism or Zionism. It is not hatred of Jews that I feel when I criticize Judaism or Israel, it is my expressing dislike for the tenets of Judaism and the behavior of Israeli Jews.

That is odd that you mention all of that because upon my very first post on this jewish forum many moons ago that is exactly how they came across to me. Very paranoid about every little thing you say and ask. I did not get that from the other religions. I saw that reaction, like a panic button toward others as well who would venture in and so you get intimidation and insults. Always ready to pick a fight with someone, so this is not just about you alone but you are one of the first to make it known. I think it is something that is imbred & taught from within, rather than an actual mental disorder. Tao mentioned the barking guard dog approach. I thought I was the only one who saw it that way but now I do see others and not just you, mentioning things that confirm it. There is clearly an agenda in particular jewish, muslim, communist and christian circles to rule the world as in something else you mentioned how they always fight for land because the god said so. This is all probably the very thing that turned me off the most and why I lost interest as quickly as I did.

 

[Bandit]

You are right to ask for specifics concerning such a complex convoluted subject and for those to rationialize assertions; as an irrational female with barely any historical accuracy of the detailed ins and outs of the pre and post modern nation state of Israel l will bow out of this one [unless my irrational *generalisations* are welcome].

ROFL!
That is just the typical debate tactic here to attempt to make people look bad as if they know nothing. Don't let it bother you.

That was pretty funny though.

 

[Avi]

That is odd that you mention all of that because upon my very first post on this jewish forum many moons ago that is exactly how they came across to me. Very paranoid about every little thing you say and ask. I did not get that from the other religions. I saw that reaction, like a panic button toward others as well who would venture in and so you get intimidation and insults. Always ready to pick a fight with someone, so this is not just about you alone but you are one of the first to make it known. I think it is something that is imbred & taught from within, rather than an actual mental disorder. Tao mentioned the barking guard dog approach. I thought I was the only one who saw it that way but now I do see others and not just you, mentioning things that confirm it. There is clearly an agenda in particular jewish, muslim, communist and christian circles to rule the world as in something else you mentioned how they always fight for land because the god said so. This is all probably the very thing that turned me off the most and why I lost interest as quickly as I did.

Bandit, I think you are being a little harsh here with your criticism.

The particular poster that you quoted has already discussed some very strange ideas which include re-writing history for what I believe is his own agenda.

On the other hand, I do not wish to come off as defensive, so I would like to address your more general concerns. Last time we talked you mentioned the "Trail of Tears", so I went back and read about that. My first reaction is that it is very similar to the historical event of the "Destruction of the First Temple". After the Temple destruction, there was a mass exile to Babylon. I do not know if you agree with that analogy ?

I have to run now, but I would like to continue this interesting discussion....

 

[Bandit]

Bandit, I think you are being a little harsh here with your criticism.

The particular poster that you quoted has already discussed some very strange ideas which include re-writing history for what I believe is his own agenda.

On the other hand, I do not wish to come off as defensive, so I would like to address your more general concerns. Last time we talked you mentioned the "Trail of Tears", so I went back and read about that. My first reaction is that it is very similar to the historical event of the "Destruction of the First Temple". After the Temple destruction, there was a mass exile to Babylon. I do not know if you agree with that analogy ?

I have to run now, but I would like to continue this interesting discussion....

I happen to agree with that poster on those particular comments. That was based on my experience as well, not just because someone else says it. It does not mean I will agree with everything that you call strange ideas by him/her. I also do not feel I have been critical or harsh enough.

Similiar at the time yes, but it is not the same today.

 

[holysmoke]

I happen to agree with that poster on those particular comments. That was based on my experience as well, not just because someone else says it. It does not mean I will agree with everything that you call strange ideas by him/her. I also do not feel I have been critical or harsh enough.

Similiar at the time yes, but it is not the same today.

Because so many people are running into the same Jewish fears and are being branded with the same "anti-Semitic" Jewish brush, one would hope Jewish people would at least attempt to understand why Gentiles and anti-Zionist Jews are harping on Jewish "paranoia" and wondering if it results from Jewish cult conditioning from early childhood onward through adulthood. It seems ever-present and now, actually, I must say I read the same paranoia roots in Judaism as a religion based on separation from and then xenophobic fear of Gentiles. For example how many Jewish holy days celebrate the Jewish god wreaking revenge on Gentiles? I believe this Jewish paranoia of Gentiles leads Jews to see anyone who criticizes their faith or their Jewish nationalistic enterprise of Israel as enemies to be fought with whatever weapons are allowed, meaning character assassination here in America and real jail sentences in some European countries where free speech is not allowed when free speech means dissing Judaism, Zionism, or Jewish relationships with Gentiles. Then of course there are Gentiles now, Arab Palestinians, who are being killed when they do not agree with the Jewish Zionist aims of Greater Israel. Were it not for these actual killings and destruction of a whole society not Jewish by Jewish people, I seriously doubt many people in either the West or Middle East would care about Jewish religious ideas and practices following those ideas. But we see what happens, even to American ex-presidents and former nobel prize winners when they dare to criticize Israel. It's all symptomatic of the same Jewish paranoid mindset which in my experience can be readily seen on these boards as well as on every single religious forum where the topics of Judaism and Israel are discussed.

 

[Avi]

Given some of the recent discussion on this thread, I think it might be of interest to try to step back and try to analyze the situation.

First of all, the dynamics set up having a race baiter and race hater in this sub-forum naturally make the environment rather tense. Therefore those who chose to participate in a discussion like this need to have strong stomachs

I believe the strategy of a race baiter is to get the readers attention using many nasty and hateful comments and see if any resonates in the observers. This is what the race baiter has done, and I would say rather successfully.

How is this accomplished ? I will speculate that three of the folks that participated in this discussion, Tao, Bandit and BB have rather unique natures. They are very direct. They do not take b.s. What I believe we are really seeing here is as much a clash in style as substance.

BB and Tao are engaged in very complex reasoning issues. Because their styles are very similar in this respect they are clashing. Issues relating to Zionism, stereotypes, philosophy, world power, etc.

BB and Bandit are engaged in more emotionally driven argumentation. Because their styles are also very similar in this respect, they have clashed as well. This style is related to the debating methods used. They are both very direct and focused and not afraid to hit hard.

My view is that this engagment has been created perfectly by the race baiter. He has succeeded in bringing the conversation to one of personal insults and inuendo.

So my question is, is this the best we can do in an interfaith dialgoue forum ?

 

[Avi]

For those in the forum who believe the race baiters claims because he claims to be a Jew, please take a look at his quote below:

Then on top of this family heritage, we discovered when my mother died that she was a closet Jew who either did not know her Jewish background or had deliberately kept quiet about it. I confirmed the Jewish heritage by having my dna tested and sure enough all sorts of Ashkenazi ancestry showed up, even some Sephardic genes as well. So is it surprising I am a prophesy bearer with an old time Jewish prophet's combative personality?

As I said earlier, it is the oldest trick in the book for the race hater to claim religious heritage. By the way, how did your DNA test come out for race hatred

 

[iBrian]

Because so many people are running into the same Jewish fears and are being branded with the same "anti-Semitic" Jewish brush, one would hope Jewish people would at least attempt to understand why Gentiles and anti-Zionist Jews are harping on Jewish "paranoia" and wondering if it results from Jewish cult conditioning from early childhood onward through adulthood. It seems ever-present and now, actually, I must say I read the same paranoia roots in Judaism as a religion based on separation from and then xenophobic fear of Gentiles. For example how many Jewish holy days celebrate the Jewish god wreaking revenge on Gentiles? I believe this Jewish paranoia of Gentiles leads Jews to see anyone who criticizes their faith or their Jewish nationalistic enterprise of Israel as enemies to be fought with whatever weapons are allowed, meaning character assassination here in America and real jail sentences in some European countries where free speech is not allowed when free speech means dissing Judaism, Zionism, or Jewish relationships with Gentiles. Then of course there are Gentiles now, Arab Palestinians, who are being killed when they do not agree with the Jewish Zionist aims of Greater Israel. Were it not for these actual killings and destruction of a whole society not Jewish by Jewish people, I seriously doubt many people in either the West or Middle East would care about Jewish religious ideas and practices following those ideas. But we see what happens, even to American ex-presidents and former nobel prize winners when they dare to criticize Israel. It's all symptomatic of the same Jewish paranoid mindset which in my experience can be readily seen on these boards as well as on every single religious forum where the topics of Judaism and Israel are discussed.

Come on, holysmoke - would be nice of you not to fall into the generalisation Avi has already called you out on.

On these boards we've constantly seen condemnation and shame regarding the actions of the Israeli government - from the Jewish members - with the point underlined that Israel does not equal Judaism.

However, you're beginning to sound like you're looking to condemn everything Jewish, and when people confront you for it, you decry, "Hah, see, I said you were all paranoid! I was right! Bwa-ha-ha!". Which isn't exactly discussion.

I've so far given you the benefit of the doubt regarding Judaism, but your claim that people in Europe can be locked up for being critical of Judaism is absolutely false excepting the sole condition of Neo-Fascism.

Is this really what you are trying to align yourself with, and have I been absolutely wrong about your position here?

 

[holysmoke]

"I've so far given you the benefit of the doubt regarding Judaism, but your claim that people in Europe can be locked up for being critical of Judaism is absolutely false excepting the sole condition of Neo-Fascism.

Is this really what you are trying to align yourself with, and have I been absolutely wrong about your position here?"



Holocaust Denial Laws Country Text of Law(s) Austria National Socialism Prohibition Law (1947, amendments of 1992) Verbotsgesetz
§ 3g. He who operates in a manner characterized other than that in § § 3a – 3f will be punished (revitalising of the NSDAP or identification with), with imprisonment from one to up to ten years, and in cases of particularly dangerous suspects or activity, be punished with up to twenty years imprisonment
§ 3h. As an amendment to § 3 g., whoever denies, grossly plays down, approves or tries to excuse the National Socialist genocide or other National Socialist crimes against humanity in a print publication, in broadcast or other media.
Belgium Negationism Law (1995, amendments of 1999) Negationism Law
Article 1 Whoever, in the circumstances given in article 444 of the Penal Code denies, grossly minimises, attempts to justify, or approves the genocide committed by the German National Socialist Regime during the Second World War shall be punished by a prison sentence of eight days to one year, and by a fine of twenty six francs to five thousand francs. For the application of the previous paragraph, the term genocide is meant in the sense of article 2 of the International Treaty of 9 December 1948 on preventing and combating genocide. In the event of repetitions, the guilty party may in addition have his civic rights suspended in accordance with article 33 of the Penal Code.
Art.2 In the event of a conviction on account of a violation under this Act, it may be ordered that the judgement, in its entity or an excerpt of it, is published in one of more newspapers, and is displayed, to the charge of the guilty party.
Art.3. Chapter VII of the First Book of the Penal Code and Article 85 of the same Code are also applicable to this Act.
Art. 4. The Centre for Equal Opportunities and Opposition to Racism, as well as any association that at the time of the facts had a legal personality for at least five years, and which, on the grounds of its statutes, has the objective of defending moral interests and the honour of the resistance or the deported, may act in law in all legal disputes arising from the application of this Act.
Czech Republic Law Against Support and Dissemination of Movements Oppressing Human Rights and Freedoms (2001) Punishment for Holocaust Denial
§ 260 (1) The person who supports or spreads movements oppressing human rights and freedoms or declares national, race, religious or class hatred or hatred against other group of persons will be punished by prison from 1 to 5 years. (2) The person will be imprisoned from 3 to 8 years if: a) he/she commits the crime mentioned in paragraph (1) in print, film, radio, television or other similarly effective manner, b) he/she commits the crime as a member of an organized group c) he/she commits the crime in a state of national emergency or state of war
§ 261 The person who publicly declares sympathies with such a movement mentioned in § 260, will be punished by prison from 6 months to 3 years.
§ 261a The person who publicly denies, puts in doubt, approves or tries to justify nazi or communist genocide or other crimes of nazis or communists will be punished by prison of 6 months to 3 years.
France LAW No 90-615 to repress acts of racism, anti-semitism and xenophobia (1990) Loi Gayssot (in French), see also Loi Gayssot.
MODIFICATIONS OF THE LAW OF JULY 29, 1881 ON THE FREEDOM OF THE PRESS Art 8. - Article 24 of the Law on the Freedom of the Press of 29 July 1881 is supplemented by the following provisions: In the event of judgment for one of the facts envisaged by the preceding subparagraph, the court will be able moreover to order: Except when the responsibility for the author of the infringement is retained on the base for article 42 and the first subparagraph for article 43 for this law or the first three subparagraphs for article 93-3 for the law No 82-652 for July 29, 1982 on the audio-visual communication, the deprivation of the rights enumerated to the 2o and 3o of article 42 of the penal code for imprisonment of five years maximum;
Art 9. – As an amendment to Article 24 of the law of July 29, 1881 on the freedom of the press, article 24 (a) is as follows written: <<Art. 24 (a). - those who have disputed the existence of one or more crimes against humanity such as they are defined by Article 6 of the statute of the international tribunal military annexed in the agreement of London of August 8, 1945 and which were a carried out either by the members of an organization declared criminal pursuant to Article 9 of the aforementioned statute, or by a person found guilty such crimes by a French or international jurisdiction shall be punished by one month to one years imprisonment or a fine.
Art 13. - It is inserted, after article 48-1 of the law of July 29, 1881 on the freedom of the press, article 48-2 thus written: <<Art. 48-2. - publication or publicly expressed opinion encouraging those to whom it is addressed to pass a favourable moral judgment on one or more crimes against humanity and tending to justify these crimes (including collaboration) or vindicate their perpetrators shall be punished by one to five years imprisonment or a fine.

 

[holysmoke]

More countries..

Germany Criminal Code: § 130 Public Incitement (1985, amendments of 1992, 2002 and 2005) Volksverhetzung
(1) Whoever, in a manner that is capable of disturbing the public peace: 1. incites hatred against segments of the population or calls for violent or arbitrary measures against them; or 2. assaults the human dignity of others by insulting, maliciously maligning, or defaming segments of the population, shall be punished with imprisonment from three months to five years. (...)
(3) Whoever publicly or in a meeting approves of, denies or belittles an act committed under the rule of National Socialism of the type indicated in Section 6 subsection (1) of the Code of Crimes against International Law, in a manner capable of disturbing the public peace shall be punished with imprisonment for not more than five years or a fine.
(4) Whoever publicly or in a meeting disturbes the public peace in a manner that assaults the human dignity of the victims by approving of, denying or rendering harmless the violent and arbitrary National Socialist rule shall be punished with imprisonment for not more than three years or a fine. (...)
Code of Crimes against International Law: § 130 Genocide
Völkermord
(1) Whoever with the intent of destroying as such, in whole or in part, a national, racial, religious or ethnic group: 1. kills a member of the group, 2. causes serious bodily or mental harm to a member of the group, especially of the kind referred to in section 226 of the Criminal Code, 3. inflicts on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about their physical destruction in whole or in part, 4. imposes measures intended to prevent births within the group, 5. forcibly transfers a child of the group to another group, shall be punished with imprisonment for life. (...)
Criminal Code: § 189 Disparagement of the Memory of Deceased Persons (1985, amendments of 1992)
Verunglimpfung des Andenkens Verstorbener
Whoever disparages the memory of a deceased person shall be punished with imprisonment for not more than two years or a fine.
Criminal Code: § 194 Application for Criminal Prosecution
Strafantrag
(1) An insult shall be prosecuted only upon complaint. If the act was committed through dissemination of writings (Section 11 subsection (3)) or making them publicly accessible in a meeting or through a presentation by radio, then a complaint is not required if the aggrieved party was persecuted as a member of a group under the National Socialist or another rule by force and decree, this group is a part of the population and the insult is connected with this persecution. The act may not, however, be prosecuted ex officio if the aggrieved party objects. When the aggrieved party deceases, the rights of complaint and of objection devolve on the relatives indicated in Section 77 subsection (2). The objection may not be withdrawn.
(2) If the memory of a deceased person has been disparaged, then the relatives indicated in Section 77 subsection (2), are entitled to file a complaint. If the act was committed through dissemination of writings (Section 11 subsection (3)) or making them publicly accessible in a meeting or through a presentation by radio, then a complaint is not required if the deceased person lost his life as a victim of the National Socialist or another rule by force and decree and the disparagement is connected therewith. The act may not, however, be prosecuted ex officio if a person entitled to file a complaint objects. The objection may not be withdrawn. (...)
Israel Prohibition of Holocaust Denial Law (1986) Law 5746
Definitions 1. In this Law, "crime against the Jewish people" and "crime against humanity" have the same respective meanings as in the "Nazis and Nazi Collaborators Law, 5710-1950.
Prohibition of Denial of Holocaust 2. A person who, in writing or by word of mouth, publishes any statement denying or diminishing the proportions of acts committed in the period of the Nazi regime, which are crimes against the Jewish people or crimes against humanity, with intent to defend the perpetrators of those acts or to express sympathy or identification with them, shall be liable to imprisonment for a term of five years.
Prohibition of publication of expression for sympathy for Nazi crimes 3. A person who, in writing or by word of mouth, publishes any statement expressing praise or sympathy for or identification with acts done in the period of the Nazi regime, which are crimes against the Jewish people or crimes against humanity, shall be liable to imprisonment for a term of five years.
Permitted publication 4. The publication of a correct and fair report of a publication prohibited by this Law shall not be regarded as an offence thereunder so long as it is not made with intent to express sympathy or identification with the perpetrators of crimes against the Jewish people or against humanity.
Filing of charge 5. An indictment for offences under this Law shall only be filed by or with the consent of the Attorney-General.
Liechtenstein § 283 (5) (2000) Rassendiskriminierung
Whoever by the word, through pictures, in writing or electronic media denies, coarsely trivialises or tries to justify the Holocaust or other crimes against humanity shall be punished with imprisonment of up to two years.
Lithuania Resolution on the Crimes of Totalitarian Regimes Luxembourg Article 457 (3) Negationism and Revisionism Law
Anyone who has contested, minimised, justified or denied the existence of war crimes or crimes against humanity as defined in the statutes of the International Military Tribunal of 8 August 1945 or the existence of a genocide as defined by the Act of 8 August 1985 shall be punished with imprisonment of between 8 days and 6 months and/or a fine. A complaint must be lodged by the person against whom the offence was committed (victim or association) in order for proceedings to be brought.
Poland Act of 18 December 1998 on the Institute of National Remembrance - Commission for the Prosecution of Crimes against the Polish Nation (Dz.U. 1998 nr 155 poz. 1016) Article 55
He who publicly and contrary to facts contradicts the crimes mentioned in Article 1, clause 1 shall be subject to a fine or a penalty of deprivation of liberty of up to three years. The judgment shall be made publicly known.
Article 1
This Act shall govern:
1. the registration, collection, access, management and use of the documents of the organs of state security created and collected between 22 July 1944 and 31 December 1989, and the documents of the organs of security of the Third Reich and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics concerning:

a) crimes perpetrated against persons of Polish nationality and Polish citizens of other ethnicity, nationalities in the period between 1 September 1939 and 31 December 1989:
- Nazi crimes,
- communist crimes,
- other crimes constituting crimes against peace, crimes against humanity or war crimes
b) other politically motivated repressive measures committed by functionaries of Polish prosecution bodies or the judiciary or persons acting upon their orders, and disclosed in the content of the rulings given pursuant to the Act of 23 February 1991 on the Acknowledgement as Null and Void Decisions Delivered on Persons Repressed for Activities for the Benefit of the Independent Polish State (Journal of Laws of 1993 No. 34, item 149, of 1995 No. 36, item 159, No. 28, item 143, and of 1998 No. 97, item 604),
2. the rules of procedure as regards the prosecution of crimes specified in point 1 letter a),
3. the protection of the personal data of grieved parties, and
4. the conduct of activities as regards public education.[7]
Portugal Racial Discrimination Law § 240 (2) – Anyone who, in a public meeting, in writing intended for dissemination, or by any other means of social communication, defames or insults an individual or group of individuals on grounds of their race, colour, or ethnic, national or religious origin, particularly by denying war crimes and crimes against peace or humanity, with the intention of inciting to or encouraging racial or religious discrimination shall be punished with imprisonment of from three months to two years or a fine.
Romania Emergency Ordinance no.31 (2002, ratified May 2005) Holocaust Negationism Law
(3) Promotion of the cult of persons who are guilty of crimes against peace and humanity, or of promoting fascist, racist or xenophobic ideologies through propaganda, carried out through any means, in public, shall be punished with imprisonment from 6 months to 5 years, and the loss of certain rights
(4) Public negation of the Holocaust or its effects is punished with imprisonment from 6 months to 5 years, and the loss of certain rights. It is prohibited to erect or to maintain in public space, statues, statuary groups, or commemorative plaques celebrating persons guilty of committing crimes against peace and humanity as well as to name streets, boulevards, squares, parks or other public space after such persons.
Spain Anti-Genocide Law (1971, amendments of 1995) Delitos de genocidio
Art. 607 (2) The diffusion by any means of ideas or doctrines that deny or justify the crimes in the previous section of this article, or tries the rehabilitation of regimes or institutions which they protect generating practices of such, will be punished with a prison sentence of one to two years.
(The inclusion of the words "deny or" in art. 607(2) of the Penal Code was ruled unconstitutional and void by the Constitutional Court of Spain in its judgment of Nov 7, 2007).
Switzerland 261bis Rassendiskriminierung / Discrimination Raciale (1995) Rassimus Strafnorm
261bis Whoever publicly, by word, writing, image, gesture, by ways in fact or any other manner, demeaned or discriminated against in a way which undermines human dignity a person or a group of people because of their race, their ethnic membership or their religion or which, for the same reason, will deny, minimize coarsely or seek to justify a genocide or other crimes against humanity shall be punished by imprisonment of up to three years or a fine.

Holocaust Denial is another 1984 style law that doesn't mean what it says. You can be locked up not for denying the Jewish European holocaust happened but for disputing the number of victims which is absurd and when carried into law is a blatant attack on free speech and democracy.

In our country, our Federal Reserve Bank system is owned and controlled by members of our 2% religious minority. These are facts that anyone can verify and so is it any surprise America consistently supports Israel no matter what Israel does? Our Zionist Jewish citizens are in effect a 5th Column in America and perhaps in every nation Zionist Jews are citizens of because their primary national loyalty is first and foremost to a foreign nation regardless of their national citizenship. Is this "anti-Semitic", another 1984 Double-speak word that means the opposite of what it says, i.e., if you support real Semitic peoples against European Ashkenazim with minute traces of Semitic heritage you are branded an "anti-Semite". As I point out again, if it were not for Israel, I wouldn't really care what Jewish people believe or do. There's lot's of religious cults out there and always have been and most of their adherents are good citizens regardless of religious beliefs.

 

[bananabrain]

In our country, our Federal Reserve Bank system is owned and controlled by members of our 2% religious minority.

ahROOOOOO-gah!! now we're really into conspiracy territory.

These are facts that anyone can verify

no it isn't. it is an assertion that only complete and utter loonies make. QED. can you provide a link to any of this supposed fact?

Our Zionist Jewish citizens are in effect a 5th Column in America

5th columnists are, in effect, the "enemy within". is this how you see it, "zionists" are the enemy?

perhaps in every nation Zionist Jews are citizens of because their primary national loyalty is first and foremost to a foreign nation regardless of their national citizenship.

so now i'm a traitor? now you're telling me that my "national loyalty" (which means what, exactly?) is to israel, not the UK? does that mean i am not allowed to disagree with my government's policies? does it mean i'm not allowed to be a republican (i am a royalist, incidentally) - does it mean i'm not obliged to pay my UK taxes? what do you mean by this? what is "national loyalty"? loyalty to what? or is the UK something incompatible with judaism somehow? was that the case before 1948? what changed as the result of the establishment of israel? how is it different for jews than it is for, to pick a random set of examples, irish / italian / greek / japanese / chinese / arab / armenian / african americans?

these are all questions which add up to one thing: you are holding up this so-called "national loyalty" as if it were obvious what it is (which it isn't) as if it by definition excluded anyone who calls themselves a zionist - another term you conveniently don't define.

Is this "anti-Semitic", another 1984 Double-speak word that means the opposite of what it says, i.e., if you support real Semitic peoples against European Ashkenazim with minute traces of Semitic heritage you are branded an "anti-Semite".

this is another great old chestnut of jew-hatred. the word "semitic" is a socio-linguistic term. it has no ethnic significance (and even if it did, your implication that israelis are "european ashkenazim" ignores the 50% of israel's population that is not of european or ashkenazic extraction, which begs a rather larger question about why, if there was such a thing as a "semite", iraqi jews for example would be excluded from such a label) i don't care for it for precisely this reason; that it can be used to confuse people. fine - there are perfectly adequate other words for what is being displayed here: "jew-hatred", "anti-jewish bigotry" or "judeophobia". you take your pick. and you can apply it for what you said about the federal reserve and "national loyalty" - you don't even need to bring the palestinians into it.

As I point out again, if it were not for Israel, I wouldn't really care what Jewish people believe or do.

oh, it would be all right if "2% of the population" controlled the federal reserve, would it?

i hope, bandit, that these are not points of view you share. it doesn't come across as such.

i think we know now what you are, mr holysmoke. if you are indeed of jewish background as you claim (which i doubt, not that it isn't self-evidently possible for a jewish person to be a fierce critic of israel on religious or political grounds) then good riddance, people like you we can do without.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[Bandit]

In our country, our Federal Reserve Bank system is owned and controlled by members of our 2% religious minority. These are facts that anyone can verify and so is it any surprise America consistently supports Israel no matter what Israel does? Our Zionist Jewish citizens are in effect a 5th Column in America and perhaps in every nation Zionist Jews are citizens of because their primary national loyalty is first and foremost to a foreign nation regardless of their national citizenship. Is this "anti-Semitic", another 1984 Double-speak word that means the opposite of what it says, i.e., if you support real Semitic peoples against European Ashkenazim with minute traces of Semitic heritage you are branded an "anti-Semite". As I point out again, if it were not for Israel, I wouldn't really care what Jewish people believe or do. There's lot's of religious cults out there and always have been and most of their adherents are good citizens regardless of religious beliefs.

The agenda says it is ok for Israel to have as many WMD, biological, chemical and nuclear weapons as they want, while Iran & Iraq are not allowed to have even one nuclear bomb. Israel is far more dangerous than Iran is, but the propaganda and media does its thing to convince people that Iran and Korea is the big problem to shift the political agenda and get what they want. Now use that information in a global context for power...

We also need to be fair and admit that the question of Israel is not just about wicked jews but also about wicked Christians who are using a religious christian-jewish dogma to support it, and that is not coming from zionists alone, but those who are unaware and used as pawns. We should also be fair and admit that there are good jews and good christians and good muslims who are against the state of Israel and the beating that Gaza and other nations take from it. Israel is nothing but a pawn, a puppet of a much bigger global interest.

It is also the perfect example of crack pot religious beliefs that create the politics, fear, mind control, taking of land, the laws etc. It IS the pharisees, let's do be honest again... It only takes a handful of elitists to use religion and persuade the masses to crucify an innocent man they label as a heretic, and/or that the globe should be ruled from one city of their god, of course from that of what was once Rome. For example purposes I equate zionists with roman catholics in different ages. They conquer by joining that which they are against. These particular current literalist beliefs have not only been debated amongst the religions but were also unheard of until 80 years ago. I mentioned this to my aunt who is 76 years old and she had no clue what zionsim is but understood the political agenda when I explained it.

I feel this is all in deciet of the nations while using jews/judaism to do it and to create a false peace to usher in a global dictatorship of a messiah-like figure while hiding war and blood in his/her ears. Everyone is going to be very sorrowful when they realize peace is not what really happened. This next holocaust we are heading for is going to make Hitler look like an angel of goodness. At the same time there is no way to stop it because people have been sleeping too long and are incredibly duped, or they simply donot care what happens. No one can war against it for the way the laws and ideas have been positioned. We have serious blood baths ahead and no amount of religious dialogue and poltical peace talk is going to change it.

There's lot's of religious cults out there and always have been and most of their adherents are good citizens regardless of religious beliefs.

That is because they do not even realize what they are a part of. If they were honest, they would remove themselves, drop the baggage and not support it but there aren't enough. And of course to be even more honest, all three hebrew religions suck and have caused more harm than they do good.

I also do agree that there is an agenda to ban the criticism of Israel and that speaks volumes in itself. Clinton, Bush, Obama all back the nazi-zionist agenda putting Israel before their own country because they know Israel will fall again without that support, thus you have your puppet for the global elitists. I would not expect these views to be real popular until after the next holocaust begins.

And to think that none of this includes the kings from the north and their political blood bath gain.

 

[Bandit]

So my question is, is this the best we can do in an interfaith dialgoue forum ?

I feel tolerance is highly over rated and a means to let someone else run you over. At least I am still listening to what you have to say and also willing to talk to you about your views and create a new relationship. Considering I lost interest with quite a few a long time ago, that is pretty good for me.

 

[iBrian]

Ah, that's sad, holysmoke - I thought you might have more to offer, rather than anti-Semitic gunk.

Here in Europe we had this thing called World War 2 and the Holocaust on our own soil. I think that's a key reason why we have social responsibility first, and free speech second.

We've seen that words are the weapons of hate crime, and the most destructive among words.

I know few of our US members may find that hard to figure, but in Europe we all lived through all of the war as nations, and its consequences. Heck, the US freaked out over 9/11, but that's nothing compared to your major cities being reduced to rubble. Something like that might have impacted the US mentality somewhat.

 

[Avi]

Quote: Bandit
The agenda says it is ok for Israel to have as many WMD, biological, chemical and nuclear weapons as they want, while Iran & Iraq are not allowed to have even one nuclear bomb. Israel is far more dangerous than Iran is, but the propaganda and media does its thing to convince people that Iran and Korea is the big problem to shift the political agenda and get what they want. Now use that information in a global context for power...

It stinks that Israel has to have WMD, biological, chemical and nuclear weapons. It is the way of life in the Middle East. I have thought for a long time that disarmament is one of the most important international issues.

Quote: Bandit
We also need to be fair and admit that the question of Israel is not just about wicked jews but also about wicked Christians who are using a religious christian-jewish dogma to support it, and that is not coming from zionists alone, but those who are unaware and used as pawns. We should also be fair and admit that there are good jews and good christians and good muslims who are against the state of Israel and the beating that Gaza and other nations take from it. Israel is nothing but a pawn, a puppet of a much bigger global interest.

I agree. I have been reading an Israeli Orthodox Jew, named Yeshayahu Leibowitz, who is very much against Israel occupying territories in Israel. The press does not give him much coverage.

Quote: Bandit

It is also the perfect example of crack pot religious beliefs that create the politics, fear, mind control, taking of land, the laws etc. It IS the pharisees, let's do be honest again... It only takes a handful of elitists to use religion and persuade the masses to crucify an innocent man they label as a heretic, and/or that the globe should be ruled from one city of their god, of course from that of what was once Rome. For example purposes I equate zionists with roman catholics in different ages. They conquer by joining that which they are against. These particular current literalist beliefs have not only been debated amongst the religions but were also unheard of until 80 years ago. I mentioned this to my aunt who is 76 years old and she had no clue what zionsim is but understood the political agenda when I explained it.

Religious extremism is a big part of the problem. The Pharisees issue is a bogeyman. I should not have let the baiter, bait me on that one. There is more to that issue, I will come back to later. Zionism is more complex than just an imperialist idea. For some it is a dream of freedom from persecution.

Quote: Bandit

I feel this is all in deciet of the nations while using jews/judaism to do it and to create a false peace to usher in a global dictatorship of a messiah-like figure while hiding war and blood in his/her ears. Everyone is going to be very sorrowful when they realize peace is not what really happened. This next holocaust we are heading for is going to make Hitler look like an angel of goodness. At the same time there is no way to stop it because people have been sleeping too long and are incredibly duped, or they simply donot care what happens. No one can war against it for the way the laws and ideas have been positioned. We have serious blood baths ahead and no amount of religious dialogue and poltical peace talk is going to change it.

This is a very distressing view of the future. I hope you are wrong. But unless we can get our act together, you may be right. I am still hopeful that Obama can help us to have a better life.
.

Quote:
There's lot's of religious cults out there and always have been and most of their adherents are good citizens regardless of religious beliefs.

Quote: Bandit
That is because they do not even realize what they are a part of. If they were honest, they would remove themselves, drop the baggage and not support it but there aren't enough. And of course to be even more honest, all three hebrew religions suck and have caused more harm than they do good.

So are you an atheist ? Yes, religion has caused much harm. In my experience most religious people are fine people. Some use religion as a crutch. Some hide behind it to attack others. Those people are the ones I do not care for.

Quote: Bandit
I also do agree that there is an agenda to ban the criticism of Israel and that speaks volumes in itself. Clinton, Bush, Obama all back the nazi-zionist agenda putting Israel before their own country because they know Israel will fall again without that support, thus you have your puppet for the global elitists. I would not expect these views to be real popular until after the next holocaust begins. And to think that none of this includes the kings from the north and their political blood bath gain.

“Nazi-zionist”, those are harsh words. I hope as we discuss Zionism and Israel further, your thoughts about them might change. I believe Obama could be a great President. I think he will open up glass ceilings. I am very optimistic about the future right now. I do not think I am being naive on this part.

Quote: Bandit


I feel tolerance is highly over rated and a means to let someone else run you over. At least I am still listening to what you have to say and also willing to talk to you about your views and create a new relationship. Considering I lost interest with quite a few a long time ago, that is pretty good for me

I think tolerance is one of most important characteristics. It differentiates us yelling at each other from speaking to one another. It separates talk from violence. It separates caring from hating. It separates learning from closing our ears. I think it is essential for interfaith dialogue. Peace to you, Sir.

 

[Avi]

I know few of our US members may find that hard to figure, but in Europe we all lived through all of the war as nations, and its consequences. Heck, the US freaked out over 9/11, but that's nothing compared to your major cities being reduced to rubble. Something like that might have impacted the US mentality somewhat.

Brian, you are probably aware that many (if not most) American Jews are second or third generation, coming from Europe. So most of us know a lot about WWII Europe.

And most of us are very sensitive to hate language. That is why I reacted strongly when this poster appeared on this thread. As I said, I do not usually react that quickly or that strongly, but my intuition felt this.

You described the profile of a neo earlier, and if you go back and read the posts by his pre-cursor, Sonoman, you will see that he quietly entered the scene just as you described. When he returned in his current manifestation, holysmoke, it was bold and with strong hate sentiment.

He has already made his agenda clear. It is not difficult to understand. It is an old story. Jewish people have heard all of these accusations before. Each day you will see more of it laid out.

 

[Bandit]

It stinks that Israel has to have WMD, biological, chemical and nuclear weapons. It is the way of life in the Middle East. I have thought for a long time that disarmament is one of the most important international issues.

That is never going to happen. If it does it will happen on a forced civil level, not a national level(s).

I agree. I have been reading an Israeli Orthodox Jew, named Yeshayahu Leibowitz, who is very much against Israel occupying territories in Israel. The press does not give him much coverage.

Kind of like Americans occupying territories over there? The agenda is so clear to me.

Religious extremism is a big part of the problem. The Pharisees issue is a bogeyman. I should not have let the baiter, bait me on that one. There is more to that issue, I will come back to later. Zionism is more complex than just an imperialist idea. For some it is a dream of freedom from persecution.

I don't believe the pharisees are a bogeyman. I believe they are literal right and left wingers with religious beliefs who will see you and me both dead to get what they want.

Zionists free from persecution. Of course. So they can do the persecuting.

So are you an atheist ? Yes, religion has caused much harm. In my experience most religious people are fine people. Some use religion as a crutch. Some hide behind it to attack others. Those people are the ones I do not care for.

I disagree with you that most religous people are fine and dandy. I think they are full of it.

I stopped discussing my personal beliefs here. When someone is really interested in that, they will see me in a one on one private conversation and that does happen from time to time.

“Nazi-zionist”, those are harsh words. I hope as we discuss Zionism and Israel further, your thoughts about them might change. I believe Obama could be a great President. I think he will open up glass ceilings. I am very optimistic about the future right now. I do not think I am being naive on this part.

LOL! there is nothing to discuss. Zionists want to rule the world through Israel and it does not matter who gets killed along the way. I stopped putting confidence in politcal and religious powers many years ago, that includes obama.

This is a very distressing view of the future. I hope you are wrong. But unless we can get our act together, you may be right. I am still hopeful that Obama can help us to have a better life.

70 A.D.
Titus took Jerusalem - second revolt. Over one million Jews killed.
136 A.D.
580,000 men destroyed, 985 towns destroyed - third revolt.
300 A.D.
Purim festival celebrating God's deliverance to Mordecai and the Jews through Esther and the fasting. Lies spread that Jews kill Christians for sacrifice. Emperor Severus also said the Jews purchased 90,000 Christians to kill them.
306 A.D.
Council in Spain banned Christians & Jews meeting or marrying.
325 A.D.
Constantine changed the celebration of Easter on the calendar so that it did not coincide with the Jewish Passover.
379 A.D.
Vicious writing by St. John Chrysostom and St. Ambrose in Milan who said: "The Jews are the most worthless of all men. They are lecherous, greedy, rapacious. They are perfidious murderers of Christ. They worship the Devil. Their religion is a sickness. The Jews are the odious assassins of Christ and for killing God there is no expiation possible, no indulgence or pardon. Christians may never cease vengeance, and the Jew must live in servitude forever. God always hated the Jews. It is essential that all Christians hate them." He was called the Bishop with the Golden Tongue. St. Ambrose, Bishop of the Church offered to burn the synagogue himself.
395 A.D.
St. Gregory of Nyssa in sermons and writings characterized Jews as assassins of the Prophets, companions of the Devil, a race of vipers, a Sanhedrin of Demons, enemies of all that is beautiful, hogs and goats in their lewd grossness.
415 A.D.
Bishop Severus BURNED THE SYNAGOGUE IN THE VILLAGE OF MAGONA. BISHOP OF
ALEXANDRIA, ST. CYRIL EXPELLED JEWS FROM ALEXANDRIA AND GAVE THE MOB JEWISH PROPERTY.
ACCUSATION of Ritual murder by the Jews during Purim. Christians confiscated synagogues in ANTIOCH.
These were not hooligans but Church Fathers!
AUGUSTINE, JEROME, AMBROSE AND LESSER SAINTS AS ST. CHRYSOSTROM AND CYRIL, added to untruths the new ones that Jews were dishonest and prone to sexual perversions.
717 A.D.
Jews had to wear special yellow garb. Originated in Islam.
1012 A.D.
Emperor Henry II of Germany expels Jews from Mainz, the beginning of persecutions against Jews in Germany.
1096 A.D.
First Crusade. Crusaders massacre the Jews of the Rhineland.
1144 A.D.
First recorded blood libel. In Norwich it was alleged that the Jews had "bought a Christian child before Easter, tortured him with all the tortures wherewith our Lord was tortured and on Friday hanged him on a rood in hatred of our Lord." (England)
This notorious allegation that Jews murder non-Jews, especially Christians, in order to obtain blood for the Passover or other rituals is a complex of deliberate lies, trumped up accusations, and popular beliefs about the murder-lust of the Jews and their blood-thirstiness, based on the conception that Jews hate Christianity and mankind in general. It is combined with the delusion that Jews are in some way not human and must have recourse to special remedies and subterfuges in order to appear at least outwardly, like other men. The blood libel led to trials and massacres of Jews. Its origin is rooted in ancient almost primordial, concepts concerning the potency and energies of blood. It is one of the most terrible expressions of human cruelty and credulity. These blood rituals are expressly forbidden in Judaism. (See Leviticus 17;11 etc.)
1190 A.D.
Massacre of Jews in England.
1215 A.D.
The Jewish badge introduced.
1240 A.D.
Talmud burned in France.
1290 A.D.
Jews expelled from England.
1298 A.D.
Massacre of thousands in Germany, in 146 localities.
1306 A.D.
Expulsion from France.
1348 A.D.
JEWS blamed for the BLACK DEATH. Charge laid to the Jews that they POISONED the wells to kill CHRISTIANS.
1389 A.D.
MASSACRES in Bohemia, Spain.
1421 A.D.
270 JEWS BURNED AT THE STAKE. In the 14th and 15th centuries the Inquisition was more intense because the Church and State joined forces. Just being Jewish guaranteed persecution
1480 A.D.
Inquisition in Spain - Jews and Christians burned at the stake.
1483 A.D.
EXPULSIONS from Warsaw, Sicily, Lithuania, Portugal.
1492 A.D.
ALL JEWS EXPELLED FROM SPAIN.
1506 A.D.
Murders in Lisbon - 4000, "conversos", men, women, and children thrown from windows to street mobs below, due to preaching by Dominicans against the Jews.
1510 A.D.
EXPELLED from Brandenburg, Germany.
1516 A.D.
Venice initiates the ghetto, the first in Christian Europe.
1544 A.D.
The Reformation. At the end of Martin Luther's life the German reformer vilified the Jews in violent pamphlets which could not fail to exert their influence. But because Calvinists were steeped in Old Testament theology, the Dutch people respected the Jews as "the Chosen" people; and were not anti-Semitic in their faith. The reformation was a time of turmoil as the Roman Church and feudalism lost their supremacy. There was a rising up of Nationhood and Luther was a German nationalist. The Talmud was seized and burned everywhere by Papal authority. Jews in Catholic countries and Polish Jews suffered greatly. Luther's anti-Semitic writings were later used in anti-Semitic literature.
1553 A.D.
Rome seized and burned the Talmud by order of the POPE.
1559 A.D.
12,000 copies of Talmud burned in Milan.
1569 A.D.
POPE PIUS V ordered all Jews out of the Papal states.
1593 A.D.
EXPULSIONS from Italy and Bavaria.
1598 A.D.
Ritual murder charge that sent three Jews to their deaths. Execution of the supposed guilty was done by QUARTERING. (In his book the "Birth of the Prison" Michel Foucault describes at length the quartering of a condemned man in 1757. It was done eventually by six horses instead of the four original ones and other means had to come in to play due to the failure even of six horses as the prisoners limbs were tied to ropes harnessed to the horses. Each horse pulled in a different direction. One horse fell to the ground unsuccessfully. Knives had to be used for severing...)
1614 A.D.
JEWS attacked and driven out of Frankfurt, Germany.
1624 A.D.
GHETTO established in Ferrara, Italy.
1648 A.D.
Leader of the Cossacks, in the Ukraine massacres 100,000 Jews and destroyed 300 communities.
1655 A.D.
Massacres of Jews in war against Sweden & Russia by Poland.
1715 A.D.
POPE PIUS VI issues edict against Jews.
1768 A.D.
20,000 Jews in Poland killed.
1805 A.D.
MASSACRE of Jews in Algeria.
1840 A.D.
BLOOD LIBEL in DAMASCUS.
1853 A.D.
BLOOD LIBEL in RUSSIA.
1858 A.D.
THE MORTARA CASE: Catholics abduct a 7 yr. old Jewish child. A Catholic servant baptized a Jewish child when the child was seriously ill and the church of Rome seized the child. Outcry had no effect on the POPE.
1879 A.D.
Word anti-Semitism comes into existence.
1881 A.D.
POGROMS BEGAN. The word is of Russian origin. It designates attack, accompanied by destruction, looting of property, murder, rape. There were three major outbreaks in Russia. The word designates more particularly the attacks carried out by the Christian population. Each pogrom surpassed the other in savagery.
KIEV, ODESSA; Here murder of whole families was a common occurrence. Partial data are available for 530 communities in which 887 major pogroms and 349 minor pogroms occurred. There were 60,000 dead and several times that many were wounded.
1882 A.D.
FIRST ANTI-JEWISH CONGRESS HELD. In Dresden, Germany.
1894 A.D.
ALFRED DREYFUS TRIAL in France. Details follow further on in this summary.
1903 A.D.
APPEARANCE of a new issue of the PROTOCOLS OF THE ELDERS OF ZION. In Russia.
This spectre of a worldwide Jewish conspiracy aiming at reducing the Gentiles to slavery or extermination loomed up in the medieval Christian imagination and grew out of legends about well poisonings and plague spreading. It was concocted in Paris by an unknown author working for the Russian secret police. It was an alleged conference of the leaders of World Jewry. It was translated into all the world languages. In 1963 a Spanish edition was published. During World War II, the Protocols of the elders of Zion became an implicit justification for the GENOCIDE of the Jews and Nazi propaganda relied on them until the last days of the Third Reich. Smaller pamphlets of it have been distributed in B.C. 1983 published in California... Required reading in most Arab countries, in schools, to this day.
1905 A.D.
Russian pogroms continue. Also in Morocco, Ukraine, 300 dead.
1919 A.D.
3000 Jews killed in Hungarian pogroms.
1920 A.D.
Appearance of ADOLPH HITLER. Also Henry Ford the 1st believes the Protocols; and publishes anti-Jewish articles in his newspaper, the Dearborn Independent.
1925 A.D.
MEIN KAMPH appears. Hitler's Plan published in Germany.
1933 A.D.
HITLER appointed chancellor in Germany.
1935 A.D.
Hitler writes his Nuremberg Laws which lead to his Final Solution.
1938 A.D.
Burning in AUSTRIA & GERMANY of Synagogues. Jews sent to concentration camps. Beginnings of the Holocaust.
1939 A.D.
Germany overruns Poland.
1940 A.D.
Gassing, shootings in Polish Ghettos (Jewish).
1941 A.D.
EXPULSION of Jews from the German Reich to Poland. Riots against Jews in Iraq.
1942 A.D.
Mass transports of Jews from Belgium & Holland.
1944 A.D.
EXTERMINATION OF HUNGARIAN JEWS.
1945 A.D.
HOLOCAUST Final Count: 6,000,000 Jews slaughtered.
1946 A.D.
Pogroms in Poland - 42 Jews murdered.
1948 A.D.
BIRTH OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL. Also Jewish intellectuals shot in Russia.
1952 A.D.
Jews murdered byCommunists, and others disappear. Prague trials. Murder of Yiddish intellectuals in Russia and many sent to work camps..
1956 A.D.
Jews expelled out of EGYPT.
1967 A.D.
SIX DAY WAR. Also new publication of Elders of Zion in Arabic.
1968 A.D.
Emigration of last remaining Jews in Poland.
1969 A.D.
JEWS EXECUTED IN IRAQ.
1970 A.D.
Beginning of imprisonment in Russia of PRISONERS OF CONSCIENCE. ("Refuseniks")
1980 A.D.
Russian imprisonments carry on throughout the 70's to the 80's.
1982 A.D.
War in Lebanon begins after many years of terrorist attacks against the Jews in the Upper Galilee area from the vantage point of Beaufort Castle. Many Lebanese killed over long period of time, but was ignored by the News Media. War in Lebanon gets slanted coverage. 1983 A.D.
Word from Christians in Israel that the PLO planned their next battleground to be Canada via Quebec. Documented proof that Russia planned in 1982 to attack Israel.

and that is just for jews. it does not include all the other millions of nations and tribes with their atrocities.


and you tell me that tomorrow is going to be better because of Obama? I have my serious doubts

 

[Avi]

and that is just for jews. it does not include all the other millions of nations and tribes with their atrocities.


and you tell me that tomorrow is going to be better because of Obama? I have my serious doubts

Are you old enough to remember Jack Kennedy ? Bobby Kennedy ? Martin Luther King ? During those days many people believed we could have a better world. Their deaths killed that possibility for many. I hope that dream will re-awaken with Obama.

I know the timeline of the Jews pretty well. And I know Native American Indians have suffered genocide as well. That is why hate speech and hate baiting (seen earlier on this thread) need to be eliminated. Maybe that is a good place to start .