Identity if the serpent in Genesis (2)

[citizenzen]

God lost his children in the process. It was such a tragedy

So God can't control the process?

If God can't control the process, why do we blame A&E? Surely they had even less control of the process than God. Why do we consider it the fall if it was just a problem with the process?

Maybe we should change it to "the bug".

 

[shawn]

soleil10:
Yes they were initially pure and innocent. This is why the fall was such a tragedy.

This is not supported by the text and is an assumption.
So you are trying to sell us a myth under the guise of truth.

 

[citizenzen]

I think we'll have to rewrite the Lord's Prayer...

Our Father, who art in heaven,
Hallowed be thy Name.
Thy kingdom come.
The process be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.

 

[Thomas]

What is humorous on one hand is the fact that so many people who have had anything to do with christianity for any length of time, either as studious laymen or in a professional capacity, acquire this attitude of "I know what the meaning of this is and now am able to correct any who stray from the true understanding".

OK, let me make it plainer.

From a strict philosophical viewpoint, it's obvious you're making certain assumptions about Adam and Eve which are not indicated in the text, but based on your own supposition and prejudice.

Faith has nothing to do with it, it's a matter of reason and logic.
Address those, and we have a discussion. Avoid them, and we don't.

Thomas

 

[Thomas]

Like I said, A&E were in a most naive state. They weren't drug using prostitutes, they were just children who didn't listen to their parent.

Can we please get away from this persistent error?

The assumption of naiveté, ignorance or childishness is post-modern assumption and nowhere indicated in the text.

Thomas

 

[immortalitylost]

Um, I see Genesis as being just as meaningful as any other creation myth out there. It is an oral tradition of creation, passed down until it could be put in written form. There was no all seeing immortal narrator there at the beginning of creation, penning all of this down for the Israelites so that later down the line they could know what happened.

I see it as a creation story that tries to take into consideration the question of why we are so much smarter than animals, the only other life forms we are aware of. And I find that interesting in itself, that a people thought of the question so early in human history and decided to explain it while they tried to create a plausible scenario to them of how they were created.

They also ask, why are we ashamed of nakedness, and animals are not? Why do we feel so terrible when we do something that we know is wrong? How do we know wrong and right? Animals do not, what makes us different. Then they do what all humans invariably do and pass the blame along if they get the chance. Hence the serpent.

They ask, why is life so hard? And they answer it in their creation story. They ask why do we die if we are so far above the animals around us? Surely we are not the same as them? Why then do we die as they do? They answer all of these questions for the generations that come after to make life for them just that much easier.

I find this remarkable. And an insight into just how philosophical humans in that culture could be even before the dawn of their written language.

Of course this is all just my speculation and you can feel free to take it at just that.

God made people. That's fine for me. I could really give a fig for the details. But that's probably just me... Carry on all, carry on....

 

[immortalitylost]

Can we please get away from this persistent error?

The assumption of naiveté, ignorance or childishness is post-modern assumption and nowhere indicated in the text.

Thomas

Do you find the meaning of the fruit in the story of no importance then? As in they knew the meaning of good and evil from the moment that they were created?

I think that people see them as naive and childish in the sense that they weren't ashamed of their nakedness, and once they ate the fruit they were. So they were naive and childish beforehand. And also they were childish in the sense that they hadn't eaten the fruit and therefore had no concept of evil, or if they were doing evil.

Is your point that what they did was not evil, but bad, because they did something that they knew was wrong but did not know that their actions would cause certain bad outcomes to take place?

Trying to clarify.

 

[soleil10]

Do you find the meaning of the fruit in the story of no importance then? As in they knew the meaning of good and evil from the moment that they were created?
I think that people see them as naive and childish in the sense that they weren't ashamed of their nakedness, and once they ate the fruit they were. So they were naive and childish beforehand. And also they were childish in the sense that they hadn't eaten the fruit and therefore had no concept of evil, or if they were doing evil.

I agree with you. Everything in the creation goes through the process of growth from birth to maturity.

Adam and Eve fell before reaching maturity. God did not bless their union and did not recognize their children as his own.

He prefered Abel because he was further away from the initial fall

When we read " you are of your father the devil" John 8:44 we can realize that in the process of the fall God lost his own lineage and children who willingly put another father in His place. A change of order took place. Man was now in a midway position between God and Satan

The bible shows how man through chosen central figures by God (Noah, Abraham, Mose etc) had to make a new foundation of faith and reverse the order to the original (Cain & abel, Jacob & Esau, Perez & Zerah etc) as well as prepare a womb for a sinless birth (Tamar, Ruth, Marie etc).

People did quite unnatural things to separate from Satan and prepare for a second Adam to be born so a new sinless family could be created

 

[immortalitylost]

Not to be rude or anything, but what is it that you agree with me on? I didn't know I was making a statement, merely asking a question.

Ummm, how can I put this... If you read the post above the one that you quoted, you'll know that I don't really share the same beliefs as you. I respect your beliefs, but they are not compatible with my own.

I stated that as what I thought others believed. Because I was wondering what Thomas believed. I'm just a curious onlooker really. I really, really, don't mean to be rude or anything here, so please don't be mad.

 

[wil]

Can we please get away from this persistent error?

The assumption of naiveté, ignorance or childishness is post-modern assumption and nowhere indicated in the text.

Thomas

Namaste Thomas,

Naive is a human trait, something literalists would contend with, but why get excited if it is a creation story?

but if you were to explore, wouldn't take much to find indication...

who hides from the all knowing...

whoa we are naked

tis quite easy if one were a literalist to see their eyes were just beginning to open..

 

[citizenzen]

Can we please get away from this persistent error?

The assumption of naiveté, ignorance or childishness is post-modern assumption and nowhere indicated in the text.

Thomas

A&E had just been created. They have precious little interaction, virtually no opportunity to learn about issues like trust, responsibility, faithfulness. Why do you assume that they were imbued with complete understanding of these life lessons?

A baby enters the world and requires years to learn this... some people never do. Why would you assume any different for A&E, especially in absence of any indication of their possessing this wisdom in Genesis?

In fact in Genesis 3:6 we read: When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom...

That passage right there indicates a lack of wisdom.

 

[shawn]

The garden of eden is a strong metaphor for the womb, or by extension, for the nursery.
People had just been created (according to the story)
What indicator would a God set up to show that the children have grown to the point where they are now ready to leave the nursery?
Hmm?

I know Thomas, that you have a vested (personal) interest in seeing the story only in one way.
But we are just talking and brainstorming here.
Therefore an open mind, which will entertain different notions, is vastly more preferable to the close and opinionated mind which just wants to be proved right.
I am not trying to convince anyone of my point of view as truly I think that nobody has the correct take on it.
Not you, nor I, nor any of these other prognosticating pundits.
But it is entertaining and perchance, educational.
At the very least we will learn to be more open-minded from the exercise.

 

[wil]

I've said it before... this little 80 year old 4 foot nothin preacher lady holdin her bible over her head saying "Your biography has been written and it is all in this book!" a vivid memory of Amalia Frank, may she be dancing in her next incarnation.

So for me, one rendition of Genesis is our individual biography. Look at the story, we've all created a layer cake, or a drama, or a problem, or tried to create our situation and it didn't go as planned. We've all been in the role of G!d, Adam, Eve, the Snake, the tree, the fruit, the garden...and yeah, Cain and Abel to.

So who is the Serpent, it is/has been me, and you. Think about it, when was the last time you conned some unsuspecting into doing your bidding....who was the Eve you set up to take down Adam?

 

[soleil10]

The garden of eden is a strong metaphor for the womb, or by extension, for the nursery.People had just been created (according to the story)What indicator would a God set up to show that the children have grown to the point where they are now ready to leave the nursery?

The bible was written in the midst of an agrarian society. The Garden, the 2 trees, the fruit etc.... are based on the language of an agrarian society and have symbolic meanings.

Everything in God's creation go through a growth process from birth to maturity.
While animals go by their instincts, we humans have a spirit and a body.
Our physicla body needs, air, sun and food but our spiritual body needs truth and love. God wanted Adam and Eve to go to perfection.
Perfection means to become one with Him.s

My 2 cent

 

[wil]

God wanted Adam and Eve to go to perfection.
Perfection means to become one with Him.s

My 2 cent

So if Adam and Eve were perfect as intended, and never ate from the tree....none of us would exist...no family...no offspring...just the two living forever in the garden...

Seems this issue may stem from us never being able to imagine our parents 'doing it' but without the fun they had we wouldn't exist either.

 

[soleil10]

So if Adam and Eve were perfect as intended, and never ate from the tree....none of us would exist...no family...no offspring...just the two living forever in the garden...
Seems this issue may stem from us never being able to imagine our parents 'doing it' but without the fun they had we wouldn't exist either.

Growing to perfection includes individual perfection first and of course the next step is to multiply and create a God centered family ( Gen 1:28)
A&E had to wait to reach maturity before to eat of the fruit as God told them. That was the problem. God did not bless their union.

 

[seattlegal]

Growing to perfection includes individual perfection first and of course the next step is to multiply and create a God centered family ( Gen 1:28)
A&E had to wait to reach maturity before to eat of the fruit as God told them. That was the problem. God did not bless their union.

God did, indeed, bless their union:

Genesis 1:26-31
26 Then God said, "Let Us (P) make man in Our image, according to Our likeness. (Q) They will rule the fish of the sea, the birds of the sky, the animals, all the earth, [f] and the creatures that crawl [g] on the earth." (R) 27 So God created man in His own image;
He created him in the image of God;
He created them male and female. (S)
28 God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth, (T) and subdue it. Rule the fish of the sea, the birds of the sky, and every creature that crawls [h] on the earth." 29 God also said, "Look, I have given you every seed-bearing plant on the surface of the entire earth, and every tree whose fruit contains seed. This food will be for you, (U) 30 for all the wildlife of the earth, for every bird of the sky, and for every creature that crawls on the earth—everything having the breath of life in it. [I have given] every green plant for food." (V) And it was so. 31 God saw all that He had made, and it was very good. (W) Evening came, and then morning: the sixth day.​

 

[soleil10]

God did, indeed, bless their union:Genesis 1:26-3126 Then God said, "Let Us (P) make man in Our image, according to Our likeness. (Q) They will rule the fish of the sea, the birds of the sky, the animals, all the earth, [f] and the creatures that crawl [g] on the earth." (R) 27 So God created man in His own image;He created him in the image of God;He created them male and female. (S)28 God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth, (T) and subdue it. Rule the fish of the sea, the birds of the sky, and every creature that crawls [h] on the earth." 29 God also said, "Look, I have given you every seed-bearing plant on the surface of the entire earth, and every tree whose fruit contains seed. This food will be for you, (U) 30 for all the wildlife of the earth, for every bird of the sky, and for every creature that crawls on the earth—everything having the breath of life in it. [I have given] every green plant for food." (V) And it was so. 31 God saw all that He had made, and it was very good. (W) Evening came, and then morning: the sixth day.

Certainly, God wanted to bless them. As I wrote in my post, they had to be fruitful first. In addition God gave them a specific commandment to follow until then. They screw it up along the way as we see later.

 

[shawn]

Certainly, God wanted to bless them. As I wrote in my post, they had to be fruitful first. In addition God gave them a specific commandment to follow until then.

Nope.
It is quite clear what SG posted:

28 God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth, (T) and subdue it. Rule the fish of the sea, the birds of the sky, and every creature that crawls [h] on the earth."

God blessed them.....then he gave them some instruction.
Not the other way around.
And we don't know specifically what the blessing was now do we, just that it was imparted....right there at the start of verse 28.

They screw it up along the way as we see later.

IMO there was no screw up.
Only those with the agenda of "the whole bible is about Jesus" seek to sell everyone on the fall of man/original sin mythology.

 

[greymare]

Heres a different thought,... what if Adam and Eve were figuratively names of different races? I mean like the Tribe of Adam and the tribe of Eve. At least there would have been less chance of the "inbreeding" factor.
( I think i read it in a book somewhere)...
Forgive me..
Carry on...