Did Jesus (pubh) die for his followers' sins?!

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Peace be upon you all,​

Actually, what pushes me to write down this thread is our Christian brethren's belief that Jesus pbuh died for their sins...​

In reality, Jesus pbuh didnt come with this teaching. His teachings are clear in the Scriptures. So, how come that he forgot to tell that he was going to die for his followers's sin?​

In other words, Jesus pbuh cant forget a single part of the essence of his divine message. He was a prophet with a clear message, and he performed his responsibility fully and perfectly during his life, and he never said of his dying for his followers' sin...​

Now, we come to the stage after "his death", a question arises: who is responsible for the teachings delivered after Jesus'"death"?! and who gives those teaching the same status as those delivered directly by Jesus pbuh ?​

To say it in other words, how can the idea of salvation considered as a tenet for the Christians while Jesus pbuh never said of it, and never ever declare that he was going to die for his followers's sin?!!​

I think this question really needs meditation and rethinking...​
 
I'm really curious about this, actually. I am hoping Thomas will chime in and explain the history of it.

Personally, I am a follower of Christ and some would say, a Christian. But I do not believe in original sin and I do not believe God required Jesus to be sacrificed for my sins. I believe Jesus was crucified because, in general, he went against the power structure of the day and introduced a message that was unwanted by the elite. He was threatening to social structure, reaching out to the oppressed in ways that were not appreciated by the elite. He was killed for his message, and I do believe that he knew what he was doing. That is, I believe he could have used his spiritual power to avoid his death, but that it was most powerful that he did not and willingly submitted to this end. He kept to his message about forgiveness and love to the end of his life, saying on the cross "Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do."

To me, that is a very powerful message about his actions following his teachings, even at his own expense. There is a depth of compassion there for other people, even those that were against him, that is inspiring and encouraging.

I don't think the story would have the same "oomph" for me if he renounced his message or used the power he had in an unethical way just to get out of dying. That he faced oppression and crucifixion with dignity and compassion for his oppressors speaks to the remarkable potential of human beings, and is something for me to aspire to.

Jesus gives me a goal of divine perfection, shown in a human life. He shows me what the human potential is if we dedicate ourselves wholeheartedly to God. And in so doing, his message, through both his teachings and his actions, delivered me from myself.

I have non-conventional views for a Christian, though. I expect someone will come along and explain why it is believed he was sacrificed for our sins shortly. :)
 
"Did Jesus (pubh) die for his followers' sins?!"

An interesting question.

Isn't it necessary to maintain Jesus' divinity in order that the atonement sacrifice be effective? Presumably, if he were not divine, his sacrifice would not have had the atoning effect.

In other words, one doctrinal concept requires another.

 
I don't really understand how it all works together. Perhaps one of our Jewish members could explain how sacrifice worked for them and that would clarify some things?

The atonement sacrifices were not divine in the OT, so I don't understand why the two doctrines go together in Christianity, but they do. I find a lot of the doctrine quite confusing when I try to understand it. :confused:

I'm really hoping someone more knowledgeable than I on Christian doctrine and on Jewish law steps in and gives some insight. I can only speak for my own beliefs on the matter, and I'm afraid they are not very conventional so my point of view might not be helpful to you, DITB.
 
Dialogue is best said:
I think this question really needs meditation and rethinking...
It is something to think about. If you know how atonement should work, then maybe start by letting it mean that to you. Despite appearances it may be that the writers understand atonement in the same sense that you do. The Christians you know may also, despite their language. (Although many of us do not, you can be sure.) In this way overlook the doubt to see if you can get the full fruit out of what you have heard or read. My own understanding of it is not typical, and it would be just an exposition of verses.
 
I'm really curious about this, actually. I am hoping Thomas will chime in and explain the history of it.

Fundamentalist Christians tend to think that Catholics must have similar beliefs to be Christian because they think Fundamentalist Christianity defines Christianity. I personally don't know and I would myself, be curious too. How is the "Sacred Tradition" of the Catholic Church different to the fundamentalist position?

Personally, I am a follower of Christ and some would say, a Christian. But I do not believe in original sin and I do not believe God required Jesus to be sacrificed for my sins. I believe Jesus was crucified because, in general, he went against the power structure of the day and introduced a message that was unwanted by the elite. He was threatening to social structure, reaching out to the oppressed in ways that were not appreciated by the elite.
................
I have non-conventional views for a Christian, though. I expect someone will come along and explain why it is believed he was sacrificed for our sins shortly. :)

I agree. I think the "fundamentalists" have distorted Jesus' life and sayings by putting too much emphasis on the crucifixion and people's sins. I think the truth of the matter is that sins were not of primary importance.

Jesus was regarded by some at the time to be a "messiah." Depending on your tradition (ie. Judaism, Christianity, Islam) you'd have different views on what would qualify as a "messiah," but he would most likely have had some influence on the socio-political order of the world.

The fundamentalist view is that it's about a sacrifice for people's "sins." I think that ignores Jesus' role socially and politically, and I think if we were to fully understand what the New Testament was trying to demonstrate, Jesus' legacy was not all about sin. Far from it. Christian fundamentalism puts too much emphasis on his theological legacy and not enough on his social and political legacy.

Here is what I posted in the thread entitled, "What is Satan and how does he influence my life?" Pardon me for re-posting it largely verbatim (with some modification), but I think it summarises my view on the matter. That was in response to what one poster asked about "sin."

Jesus was a hero to outcasts. He gave outcasts of society a sense of dignity. They felt loved, accepted and appreciated by God because Jesus was a man of God who showed them what God would have done if it was Him, personally who was caring for them. Society put Jesus on the cross, but it wasn't defeat for the outcasts. It was, instead, the opposite. Society unjustly persecuted an innocent man, a good man who restored the dignity that outcasts of society lost because of what they meant to society (ie. think of Matthew, Zaccheus and the woman with the alabaster jar). Unfortunately, society couldn't accept that man either. That man willingly allowed himself to be arrested, charged and condemned for those for whom he cared.

Because he was a man of God, it was a sign of support from God. Society was the oppressor. Jesus was their ally, their supporter. Society had made them feel worthless, but here was a sign God didn't care what society thought of them. God accepted them despite what society thought. That is what I consider to be the significance of Jesus.

Forgiving sins? The question is whose "sins"?

Should rich and powerful people, people with power and money receive the same support as the outcasts whom Jesus supported? I think it would be to a lesser extent.

With power comes responsibility. Very often, power corrupts.

I think some people have the wrong concept of the crucifixion.
It wasn't for everybody. It wasn't for rich and powerful people. It was for poor, downtrodden, oppressed and persecuted people. It was for people with low self-esteem, stripped of their dignity, humiliated.

A CEO with a salary of $1 million may think of himself as a Christian and chant slogans like, "Jesus saved me," but if he lives like a king and doesn't help the poor, persecuted, oppressed and outcasts of his society, doesn't live like a "little Christ," like Jesus, I have to say that the crucifixion means very little to him. Moreover, it's a sign that he doesn't understand the crucifixion.

If you've got money, you've got the power to help the "little people," but if you don't help the little people, you are nothing, no matter how much you earn.

The "sins" of the "little people" are acceptable to God because they are fairly insignificant. Jesus didn't die for "big people." He died for "little people."

A "big person" (ie. a rich and powerful guy, including religious leaders) who causes injustice and misery in society must become one of the "little people" to be accepted by God. His "big person" status isn't acceptable because of his misuse and abuse of power, his hedonism, narcissism and self-indulgence.

Justice and redemption can't happen without some humiliation.

Whose sins? It's a matter of social status and social standing. Are you one of the little people? That's the question.

To be honest, I don't live like one of the "little people." I just aspire to live like one.

Isn't it necessary to maintain Jesus' divinity in order that the atonement sacrifice be effective? Presumably, if he were not divine, his sacrifice would not have had the atoning effect.

I think in theory, it wasn't necessary. Jesus' legacy was socio-political in nature. Some may argue that it was theological, but Paul was just trying to assert an atonement-based theology to certain Jewish groups of his day.

From a theological point of view, it may have been an atoning sacrifice, but from a socio-political point of view, Jesus was a martyr, an innocent man wrongly condemned. The fact that an innocent man was condemned nullified the claims and legitimacy of his societal and political enemies, giving the people for whom he cared, the outcasts of society, an open door to heaven and an eternal afterlife despite their shortcomings.

While it is true that the New Testament often referred to Jesus as a "man from heaven," and that he may indeed have been a heavenly man, I don't see how an atonement sacrifice requires a man of heavenly origin.
 
The line I was always fed at fundamentalist churches is that God required a perfect sacrifice, and the Jewish ones weren't, so He sent His son to die as the perfect sacrifice.

Which, quite frankly, never made sense to me. If He required a perfect, divine sacrifice, then surely He knew that the Jewish ones would never cut it and then why did He institute the Torah-based sacrificial system in the first place? Furthermore, it just seemed quite offensive to Jewish people to tell them that nope, the system you were, according to the Bible, given by God wasn't sufficient after all. As I did not know any Jews who became Christians, it seemed a non-issue in the Christian church to routinely misinterpret the Jewish faith and misrepresent it to shore up doctrine.

The more I learned about Judaism, the less sense much of the doctrine made, and the more offensive some of the assumptions became.

As my faith in Christ and my connection to the teachings of Jesus were independent of doctrine anyway, and the doctrine seemed to contribute little to my spiritual development when I look to the "fruits of the Spirit," I eventually just put most of them in a mental file of "intellectually interesting but irrelevant to me" and there they largely remain.
 
I don't really understand how it all works together. Perhaps one of our Jewish members could explain how sacrifice worked for them and that would clarify some things?
Not sure if they'd be the ones to ask.

Jesus' sacrifice was a continuation of the old notion that "the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness." However, an important difference is that Jesus' sacrifice is to be seen as once and for all, thus facilitating atonement even for sins not yet committed: "Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people."

Jesus' sacrifice is portrayed as being an improvement on the old sacrificial modalities which were considered externalistic and superficial: "the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper. They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings—external regulations applying until the time of the new order."

Hebrews goes into substantial detail on how Jesus' sacrifice was different:
The Blood of Christ

11When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation. He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption. The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!

15For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

16In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living. This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood. When Moses had proclaimed every commandment of the law to all the people, he took the blood of calves, together with water, scarlet wool and branches of hyssop, and sprinkled the scroll and all the people. He said, "This is the blood of the covenant, which God has commanded you to keep." In the same way, he sprinkled with the blood both the tabernacle and everything used in its ceremonies.

It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God's presence. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.
~Hebrews 9:1-27
 
Yes, I've read Hebrews, but what I'm getting at is that this is at odds with the Jewish notion of sacrifice, isn't it? It seems the Christian doctrine rests on the assumption that the Jewish sacrifice was based on certain understandings of how to obtain forgiveness, and thus Jesus was the "new and improved" version. However, in discussing this with Jewish people, it does not seem that the Jewish ideas about sacrifice, forgiveness, sin and so forth are what the Christians assume they are. Which raises the question of where the doctrine expounded in Hebrews came from. Was it a sub-set of Jewish thinkers and why did they think this way? How much was influenced by non-Jewish ideas?

And what does any of it have to do with Gentiles? It's clear that sin has something to do with the gentiles, but less clear what blood sacrifice has to do with those of us who were never given the Law to begin with.
 
Which raises the question of where the doctrine expounded in Hebrews came from. Was it a sub-set of Jewish thinkers and why did they think this way?
No one knows who wrote it (if I recall).

How much was influenced by non-Jewish ideas?
It mentions the idea that "the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness." So that concept was evidently carried over. But at this point we're just repeating ourselves.
 
Yes, I've read Hebrews, but what I'm getting at is that this is at odds with the Jewish notion of sacrifice, isn't it? It seems the Christian doctrine rests on the assumption that the Jewish sacrifice was based on certain understandings of how to obtain forgiveness, and thus Jesus was the "new and improved" version. However, in discussing this with Jewish people, it does not seem that the Jewish ideas about sacrifice, forgiveness, sin and so forth are what the Christians assume they are. Which raises the question of where the doctrine expounded in Hebrews came from. Was it a sub-set of Jewish thinkers and why did they think this way? How much was influenced by non-Jewish ideas?

And what does any of it have to do with Gentiles? It's clear that sin has something to do with the gentiles, but less clear what blood sacrifice has to do with those of us who were never given the Law to begin with.

No one knows who wrote it (if I recall).


It mentions the idea that "the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness." So that concept was evidently carried over. But at this point we're just repeating ourselves.

Yet, Jesus freely forgave the sins of repentant sinners without the shedding of blood.
 
"And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission." - Hebrews 9:22

Here is the crux (if you'll pardon the expression) of the matter in the book Hebrews. The question is: is this statement according to the Law of Moses true? Interesting that it says 'almost'. Hmmm....

But what I'm getting from our Jewish friends is that the animal sacrifice is only one aspect of forgiveness, and that for certain unintentional sins.

However, in reading about Aaron in his role of the High Priest (a role which the writer of Hebrews proclaims that Christ assumed) the sacrifice on the Day of Atonement is for all of Israel's sins.

"And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins: and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness." - Leviticus 16:16

"And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:" - Leviticus 16:21

"For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the LORD." - Leviticus 16:30

It gets complicated from there. Christ wasn't from the tribe of Levi, from which the High Priest is a decendent from. So then Hebrews explains what is called a "Melchisedec Priesthood" owing to what Abraham did for King Melchesedic in offering bread and wine, before the Law.

I need to study up more about this. But those are the basics.
 
Furthermore, it just seemed quite offensive to Jewish people to tell them that nope, the system you were, according to the Bible, given by God wasn't sufficient after all. As I did not know any Jews who became Christians, it seemed a non-issue in the Christian church to routinely misinterpret the Jewish faith and misrepresent it to shore up doctrine.

The more I learned about Judaism, the less sense much of the doctrine made, and the more offensive some of the assumptions became.

I've become somewhat more sensitive to Jewish sentiments about Christianity in the last two or so years, particularly because I've started taking an interest into how Judaism sees Christianity.

Christians have, for quite a long time, thought only of how Christianity might have value for Judaism, rather than the other way round: how Judaism might have value for Christianity.

I think if we actually investigated the matter further, we'd find that Judaism gives Christianity more credit than we may initially think, but not in the way that many Christians would expect (or would like), particularly if you think in evangelistic terms. The credit is more about acknowledging Christianity's legacy in possibly bringing the world's people into a relationship with the Abrahamic God, not expressing an interest in conversion.

Consider, for example, the Noahide movement and the notion of Noahidism. Christians in theory can qualify for being Noahides. One problem, however, is the doctrine of the Trinity that is upheld in many Christian groups.

Jesus' sacrifice was a continuation of the old notion that "the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness." However, an important difference is that Jesus' sacrifice is to be seen as once and for all, thus facilitating atonement even for sins not yet committed: "Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people."

Jesus' sacrifice is portrayed as being an improvement on the old sacrificial modalities which were considered externalistic and superficial: "the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper. They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings—external regulations applying until the time of the new order."

Hebrews goes into substantial detail on how Jesus' sacrifice was different.

The idea of the "atoning sacrifice" or "martyr-crucifixion" has many facets to it. The atoning sacrifice theory is not the only theory Paul offers. The other is the Law-nailed-to-the-cross theory which you will find in Colossians 2:14-15.

He forgave us all our sins, having cancelled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross. Colossians 2:14-15
By "written code," Paul implied that it was legalistic sentiments that had Jesus arrested, condemned and sentenced to death. Legalistic ideology condemned an innocent man, so legalistic ideology lost its authority. This was what freed us from legalistic ideology.

The replacement theology that promotes the idea that Judaism was "dumped" by God after the crucifixion assumes that Judaism was legalistic by nature, rather than legalistic sentiments just being an approach some people had to Judaism. The idea, however, that Judaism was legalistic even at that time is debatable.

Here are some sites debating or disputing the assumption that Judaism was legalistic in the first century:

What was Judaism like?
Paul and the Law
Evaluating the New Perspective on Paul
Cornelis P

(BTW, I haven't gone very far in reading the above articles, and this post was written largely in ignorance of the points made in them.)

Paul's efforts to convince those with legalistic sentiments of his new theology where he discarded these legalisms can be found in quite a few places in his epistles. A notable example is that of circumcision. Paul's ideas on legalism have given a lot of Christians the view that Judaism is legalistic.

But the question is, why should a document written in the first century be used to determine whether a religion is of legalistic nature? Do "religions" not "change" and "evolve" over time to adapt to cultural idiosyncrasies? Moreover, can a whole religion be legalistic? I think not. I think Paul was speaking of a subset of Judaism, particularly those with a legalistic mindset. Just like Christianity has fundamentalists today, Judaism too, had its fundamentalists.

Fast forward 2,000 years and you find Christianity itself has often been quite legalistic, particularly in its approach to theology. In much the same way that Judaism suffered from legalistic sentiments in the interpretation of the Law, Christianity has suffered from legalistic sentiments in the interpretation of its own theology.

Just as Paul argued against "physical circumcision" being mandatory, I could argue against the idea that it is mandatory to believe in the Biblical Inerrancy Doctrine, Trinity doctrine, replacement theory doctrine, pre- and post-millenialism, Jesus being God idea, etc.

I think what Paul proposed was fairly radical. Many modern Jewish scholars have suggested that Christianity was much like an early Noahide movement. Christianity is the first major religion that took an active role in promoting the idea of the "Righteous Gentile" being an equal to a Jew. Some of the rules made up for Gentile Christians are much like the Seven Noahide Laws.

But Paul went further than the Jews of today in their support for the modern Noahide movement. He believed he could do away with distinctions between Jews and Gentiles altogether. Even today, Jews keep their distinctions from Noahides.

I think Paul was getting a bit too ahead of himself. I think he was in some ways too optimistic. Prematurely optimistic. He was trying to change things way too quickly. He was promoting the idea that Jews could just give up their Jewish identity. He did it at a time when this new "Noahide" movement which we now call Christianity was only just getting on its feet.

He didn't know the world was round. He, like most other ancients, thought the world was flat. He didn't know the world was that big. He didn't know of a world much beyond the Mediterranean. He didn't know how much work still need to be done. So much for romantics and idealists.

One thing that replacement theology assumes is that God "dumped" Judaism and that it therefore became useless. This, however, assumes that theology is more important than socio-political legacy. Many of the things Jesus did were social and political in purpose, nature and consequence. Even the crucifixion can be said to be socio-political. I see the socio-political as more important than theology because theology is largely theoretical and imaginary whereas socio-political legacy has sentimental value and can have an impact on whole communities and their collective psyches.

To think that Judaism just becomes obsolete just because of a theological theory is just ridiculous IMAO.:eek: The question of usefulness in our relationship with the Abrahamic God is not limited to theology, but includes the social and political. The value of Christianity and its Jesus Legend does not rest solely in theology and nor is it so for Judaism.

Given that Judaism can have value socially and politically in our pursuit of the Abrahamic God, if it does offer something of value socially and politically for adherents of the Abrahamic faiths, it's something we can't ignore. I see the emerging Noahide movement as one such example. If Christians qualify as Noahides and can be included in the Noahidic collective, this is significant. Judaism is far from being useless. Moreover, if Christianity was an early Noahide movement, the idea isn't so incompatible to Christianity. It's quite reasonable and acceptable.
 

This is where I think fundamentalist, traditional and conventional Christianity may have it wrong.

God already accepted (ie. forgave) people before Jesus' death. The crucifixion was a sign from God. It was a political act. It was God's way of showing support for the "little people" of society. The crucifixion wasn't strictly necessary. But it happened and left behind a legacy for Christians. The significance of Jesus' death was that it was a temporary loss of hope and discouragement for these "little people" after knowing that God had already accepted/forgiven them, that the hero who showed them support was condemned and crucified. That's the way I see it.
 
God already accepted (ie. forgave) people before Jesus' death. The crucifixion was a sign from God. It was a political act. It wasn't strictly necessary.

To clarify what I mean, I'd say it was validation for "the little people." They needed encouragement.
 
God already accepted (ie. forgave) people before Jesus' death. The crucifixion was a sign from God. It was a political act. It was God's way of showing support for the "little people" of society. The crucifixion wasn't strictly necessary. But it happened and left behind a legacy for Christians. The significance of Jesus' death was that it was a temporary loss of hope and discouragement for these "little people" after knowing that God had already accepted/forgiven them, that the hero who showed them support was condemned and crucified. That's the way I see it.

Perhaps more significant that Christ's death was His Resurrection. Whatever you make of the crucifixion, it is this that validated the whole thing. Without the Resurrection, the movement would have died.
 
In the sura it says:

They denied the truth and uttered a monstrous falsehood against Mary. They declared, "We have put to death the Messiah Jesus the son of Mary, the apostle of Allah. They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but they thought they did.

You know some Muslims say that the guy on the cross wasn't actually jesus.... Just, someone who looked like him. Others say he didn't even die but passed out on that cross.... And of course some say the cross event did not even occur... So Dondi I don't think Islam accepts the ressurection of him.
 
So Dondi I don't think Islam accepts the ressurection of him.


Tru, it doesnt.

Even the Muslims who believe Jesus PBUH will return do not believe he died on the cross. They believe he is still alive in heaven, because in Islam no man, once death has overtaken him, can come back until D-Day err... I mean Judgment Day.. ( :eek::eek::eek: sorry)
 
In the sura it says:

They denied the truth and uttered a monstrous falsehood against Mary. They declared, "We have put to death the Messiah Jesus the son of Mary, the apostle of Allah. They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but they thought they did.

You know some Muslims say that the guy on the cross wasn't actually jesus.... Just, someone who looked like him. Others say he didn't even die but passed out on that cross.... And of course some say the cross event did not even occur... So Dondi I don't think Islam accepts the ressurection of him.


Fine. But what does that have to do with the fact that we are in the Abrahamic Religions section of the forum?
 
Tru, it doesnt.

Even the Muslims who believe Jesus PBUH will return do not believe he died on the cross. They believe he is still alive in heaven, because in Islam no man, once death has overtaken him, can come back until D-Day err... I mean Judgment Day.. ( :eek::eek::eek: sorry)

So Jesus has been alive in heaven in His original state (as He walked on this earth as a human) for over 2000 years? He hasn't run out of oxygen yet? Can't compete in that contest, hoy!
 
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