Did Jesus (pubh) die for his followers' sins?!

My point is that the OT does not indicate, nor does Judaism hold, that God could/would not forgive people and be merciful before Jesus' death.

The position that this is the case flies in the face of Jewish belief and the Hebrew Bible/Jewish scriptures.


Oh yes, God certainly forgives....... those who ask for forgiveness. But consider the following passage for a moment:

ezekiel 33 said:
12 "Therefore, son of man, say to your countrymen, 'The righteousness of the righteous man will not save him when he disobeys, and the wickedness of the wicked man will not cause him to fall when he turns from it. The righteous man, if he sins, will not be allowed to live because of his former righteousness.' 13 If I tell the righteous man that he will surely live, but then he trusts in his righteousness and does evil, none of the righteous things he has done will be remembered; he will die for the evil he has done. 14 And if I say to the wicked man, 'You will surely die,' but he then turns away from his sin and does what is just and right- 15 if he gives back what he took in pledge for a loan, returns what he has stolen, follows the decrees that give life, and does no evil, he will surely live; he will not die. 16 None of the sins he has committed will be remembered against him. He has done what is just and right; he will surely live.

God can forgive whoever God wants, because he is God, and can do as he pleases; he says so in this very passage. But if the process is so easy (as you sort of implied it is), then why was there any need for God to be upset at the state of affairs during Ezekiel's time? God's message to Ezekiel, and to most of the OT prophets and indeed in the other books as well, is turn away from sin and back to God. This is precisely the purpose that Jesus Christ came to fulfill: through the message he preached, and through the sheer horror of the way that the establishment brutally murdered him because of that message, to turn people back to God.

It doesn't fly in the face of Jewish belief; it is Jewish belief!
 
there are groups and organizations today seeking to rebuild the temple mount.. The Temple Institute for one.

and some FYI on the word sacrifice I thought was interesting.

It is generally thought that sacrifices of life were among the earliest and most profound expressions of the human desire to come as close as possible to God. While in English the verb "to sacrifice" means "to make sacred," the Hebrew word for "sacrifice" (korban, le-hakriv) is from the same root as "to come near, to approach. . . . "

taken from this
Moving Towards a Third Temple
 
Without the concept of the physical resurrection you wouldn't be having a relationship with the living Christ. The movement would have fizzled out in obscurity, and Jesus Christ would have just been another in a long line of self-professed Messiah's that were prevalent at that time. And we wouldn't be having this conversation.

I respectfully disagree. The legends of the Celts indicated that they already foresaw the Christ, even though missionaries had not yet reached them... I think the Christ is a living manifestation of the Divine and reaches people whether or not our measly movements go anywhere. We may not be having this conversation, but that says nothing about whether or not I would find Christ and God in my life. Many cultures had ideas about an unknown God, or a savior. Even long before Jesus' life and the NT, there were myths of the god-incarnate that dies and rises again.

The mythology carries the meaning and the truth. It is a gateway to transformation if we allow it to be.

But I don't for a second confuse the power of the myth with the necessity of human movements. With or without any of us, the power of God and truth would find its way to the willing and seeking.

The scriptures affirm this- that the very hills and stones will cry out when people are silent. That if we sincerely seek and ask, the door will be opened. There is nowhere a clause that says, "But only if XYZ people do ABC." I believe in God's all-powerfulness and that it is *we* who might benefit from doing God's will, but God's will is done and the Truth heard by the willing no matter what people do, as it is eternal and without need of us.

People come to have a life in the Spirit, bearing the fruit of such, all over the world and from all different religions, times, places, and cultures. And to me, this affirms my faith that God is omniscient, omnipotent, and always available to any sincerely seeking soul. We need only open ourselves and God is all around us, and Christ is waiting to fill the void with God's grace. We do not even have to know the story of Jesus, or Jesus' name, or anything about it, to be touched by the grace of God that is through the living Christ. We are blessed if we have the gospels, but the message of the Christ is a living message.

I find it highly relevant that God took the Day of Atonement very seriously. If the High Priest did not prepare himself just right, in the ritual cleansing, donning of the proper apparel, and careful handling of the sacrifice, he would have been instantly killed as soon as he stepped behind the veil. The assisting priests had to tie a rope around him in the event that happened, so they can pull him back out in case he died. Honor or not, it was very risky business.

To be honest, this is stuff I just don't "get." I can't wrap my mind around it and think the way people must have thought all those years ago.

What I do know from studying religion and anthropology is that people started out with small-scale society and religious beliefs that allowed direct interaction with the Divine- first understood through animism and then later through pantheons and finally through monotheism.

As society got bigger and people had less individual power, and less control over their own lives... as the rulers became more powerful and inequality between people increased... people's ideas about God placed him as angrier and more distant. Harder to reach, and harder to please.

In anthropological study, we find a strong correlation between the distance between individual and political power, and individual and God. And we see that in early state society, the rulers were often seen as divine beings on earth, which solidified their power and made people easier to control.

Personally, I have no doubt God is just, but I can't wrap my head or heart around a jealous God with the same petty emotions I have. Even I can get beyond jealousy and wrath, and I'm so small compared to God. The sort of God that strikes people dead for failing in some small ritualistic way is not the God I know in my own life.

Please note that I've said from the beginning that I'm responding as a follower of Christ's teachings, and not from a conventional/traditional/conservative/fundamentalist Christian point of view. I hope that clears some things up for Marsh and FS as well. This is the Abrahamic section and not the Christian section, so I would assume the OPer wanted a diverse set of responses.
 
God can forgive whoever God wants, because he is God, and can do as he pleases; he says so in this very passage. But if the process is so easy (as you sort of implied it is), then why was there any need for God to be upset at the state of affairs during Ezekiel's time?

I am saying it is simple. I never said it was easy. Transformation never is.

God's message to Ezekiel, and to most of the OT prophets and indeed in the other books as well, is turn away from sin and back to God. This is precisely the purpose that Jesus Christ came to fulfill: through the message he preached, and through the sheer horror of the way that the establishment brutally murdered him because of that message, to turn people back to God.

It doesn't fly in the face of Jewish belief; it is Jewish belief!

That's exactly my point. It isn't that God needed some perfect being's blood spilled so he could forgive us. It is that Jesus came to demonstrate the perfect grace and love of God in a human life, and through demonstrating this to his very death, turned people back to God.

By your own explanation, you further my explanation...

Sacrifice is not what brings us back to God. It is willingness to turn away from sin. It is repentance. This is what Ezekiel was saying. That if we become righteous, but then refuse the grace that generates righteousness (that is, we use righteousness as one more thing that serves our ego, rather than as a submission to God), then we are sinning in our intent even if our actions are pure. And if we sin in our actions, but acknowledge our flaws and mistakes, and sincerely cry out to God in repentence, struggling ever farther toward perfection in the example of Christ, God's grace through Christ will bridge the gap between our efforts and perfection.

None of that has to do with spilling of blood as a requirement. The crucifixion becomes not a requirement of God's forgiveness, but a demonstration of it. That is a very different doctrine than the substitutionary atonement sacrifice one.
 
As society got bigger and people had less individual power, and less control over their own lives... as the rulers became more powerful and inequality between people increased... people's ideas about God placed him as angrier and more distant. Harder to reach, and harder to please.

In anthropological study, we find a strong correlation between the distance between individual and political power, and individual and God. And we see that in early state society, the rulers were often seen as divine beings on earth, which solidified their power and made people easier to control.

This is what I consider to be one of the most important things about the Jesus of Christianity. He bypassed these authorities and connected directly to the common people. God was ignoring the major political systems and political players and favoured the less popular people. It was not what people admired, adored and worshipped as popular that God favoured. It was, instead, those who God saw as vulnerable.

Please note that I've said from the beginning that I'm responding as a follower of Christ's teachings, and not from a conventional/traditional/conservative/fundamentalist Christian point of view. I hope that clears some things up for Marsh and FS as well. This is the Abrahamic section and not the Christian section, so I would assume the OPer wanted a diverse set of responses.

I've started to become disillusioned with conventional/traditional/conservative/fundamentalist Christianity because I actually see it as a corrupt system. I don't believe that conventional/traditional/fundamentalist Christianity is truly representative of early, first-century Christianity in the era of Paul, Peter, James and John.

I've noticed that you're of a more mystical mindset, whereas I tend to think in social and political terms. What I see as corrupt in conventional/traditional/fundamentalist Christianity is the emphasis on doctrine and dogma as a way of determining the integrity of one's faith. I personally do not believe this is how first-century Christianity functioned. I am, actually not in disagreement with you here, since my interest is in the socio-political, your interest is in the mystical, but my dispute is with those who advocate doctrine as the measure of authentic faith.

I think if you read the New Testament closely, you'd find that Paul, Peter, James and John had a different concept for "false teachings," than what you'd find in Christian churches and groups today. When talking about "false teachings," they didn't specifically talk about "doctrine." What they instead discussed was whether what a person said or did was conducive to the purpose of the "Christian Gospel." When talking about "false teachers" they often talked about the character of those teachers and their teachings.

The question of whether teachings were "false teachings" was not a matter of doctrine, but a question of how it presented an obstacle to a person in their pursuit of a relationship with God according to the perspective of the "Christian Gospel." It was also a question of how they interacted with other Christians or those in a Christian community.

Early Christianity had no structure. There was no ideology. It was experiental. It was individualistic and anarchistic while still having some collective cohesion.

The authenticity of a teaching was social, political and relational in nature. It was not a matter of philosophy, ideology or doctrine. It was intrapersonal and interpersonal, as well as individualistic and collectivistic. It was entrenched in the psyche of the individual as well as that of the collective (ie. community). This was the heart and soul of early Christianity. This was what made it spiritual.

Christianity in the centuries that followed became more creed-based. It became more institutionalised. It started to become driven by ideology. Membership in a Christian community became a matter of conforming to a creed, to a body of doctrines. If you did not conform to the standard doctrine set by a church, you did not belong.

Christianity began to develop structure and people began to see this as the signature of a Christian. Those who conformed to the common ideology and those aligned with the social and political structures it generated were seen as those who were the "truly-Spirit-filled" Christians.

There was a simple reason why people liked the idea of a common ideology. It is because it gave them a sense of power. A common ideology often comes with a label. It is hard to "measure" the "authenticity" of an individual Christian's faith in Christ and the Christian Gospel. When an individual Christian expresses his faith independently of any ideology, determining its authenticity is a mind-blowing exercise. A faith of that kind is an expression of the individuality and spontaneity of an individual human being. How do you evaluate that kind of faith? What is the mathematics and logic of authenticity for faith?

People wanted straight and simple answers. People wanted formulas. People wanted certainty. If Christianity was a way to God, there had to be something solid on which to stand, and there had to be agreement on how to define this "holy ground" or "platform" on which they were standing.

Creeds, labels and ideologies serve as a measuring tool for determining who is serving the same agenda as you. It is a rallying call uniting people to assert that same agenda. Strength is found in numbers and unity. Creeds, labels and ideologies help to polarise people in a way that you can determine just how many are knowledgeable of your agenda and how many agree with it.

What I find corrupt in conventional/traditional/fundamentalist Christianity is that it is often not "real faith" in the sense of seeking something personal with God, but socio-political alignment. A lot of beliefs and doctrine taught in conventional/traditional/fundamentalist Christianity is just a way of determining one's socio-political alignment, not about "real faith."

While I do disagree with certain "doctrines" my disagreement is more with the socio-political alignment of adherents of Christianity around these doctrines, than specifically with the doctrines themselves. What disturbs me more is how these ideas become "established" and "dominant" than whether or not they are themselves reasonable. My concern is more with the activity of religious faith than the definition of one's religious faith.
 
This is what I consider to be one of the most important things about the Jesus of Christianity. He bypassed these authorities and connected directly to the common people. God was ignoring the major political systems and political players and favoured the less popular people. It was not what people admired, adored and worshipped as popular that God favoured. It was, instead, those who God saw as vulnerable.



I've started to become disillusioned with conventional/traditional/conservative/fundamentalist Christianity because I actually see it as a corrupt system. I don't believe that conventional/traditional/fundamentalist Christianity is truly representative of early, first-century Christianity in the era of Paul, Peter, James and John.

I've noticed that you're of a more mystical mindset, whereas I tend to think in social and political terms. What I see as corrupt in conventional/traditional/fundamentalist Christianity is the emphasis on doctrine and dogma as a way of determining the integrity of one's faith. I personally do not believe this is how first-century Christianity functioned. I am, actually not in disagreement with you here, since my interest is in the socio-political, your interest is in the mystical, but my dispute is with those who advocate doctrine as the measure of authentic faith.

I think if you read the New Testament closely, you'd find that Paul, Peter, James and John had a different concept for "false teachings," than what you'd find in Christian churches and groups today. When talking about "false teachings," they didn't specifically talk about "doctrine." What they instead discussed was whether what a person said or did was conducive to the purpose of the "Christian Gospel." When talking about "false teachers" they often talked about the character of those teachers and their teachings.

The question of whether teachings were "false teachings" was not a matter of doctrine, but a question of how it presented an obstacle to a person in their pursuit of a relationship with God according to the perspective of the "Christian Gospel." It was also a question of how they interacted with other Christians or those in a Christian community.

Early Christianity had no structure. There was no ideology. It was experiental. It was individualistic and anarchistic while still having some collective cohesion.

The authenticity of a teaching was social, political and relational in nature. It was not a matter of philosophy, ideology or doctrine. It was intrapersonal and interpersonal, as well as individualistic and collectivistic. It was entrenched in the psyche of the individual as well as that of the collective (ie. community). This was the heart and soul of early Christianity. This was what made it spiritual.

Christianity in the centuries that followed became more creed-based. It became more institutionalised. It started to become driven by ideology. Membership in a Christian community became a matter of conforming to a creed, to a body of doctrines. If you did not conform to the standard doctrine set by a church, you did not belong.

Christianity began to develop structure and people began to see this as the signature of a Christian. Those who conformed to the common ideology and those aligned with the social and political structures it generated were seen as those who were the "truly-Spirit-filled" Christians.

There was a simple reason why people liked the idea of a common ideology. It is because it gave them a sense of power. A common ideology often comes with a label. It is hard to "measure" the "authenticity" of an individual Christian's faith in Christ and the Christian Gospel. When an individual Christian expresses his faith independently of any ideology, determining its authenticity is a mind-blowing exercise. A faith of that kind is an expression of the individuality and spontaneity of an individual human being. How do you evaluate that kind of faith? What is the mathematics and logic of authenticity for faith?

People wanted straight and simple answers. People wanted formulas. People wanted certainty. If Christianity was a way to God, there had to be something solid on which to stand, and there had to be agreement on how to define this "holy ground" or "platform" on which they were standing.

Creeds, labels and ideologies serve as a measuring tool for determining who is serving the same agenda as you. It is a rallying call uniting people to assert that same agenda. Strength is found in numbers and unity. Creeds, labels and ideologies help to polarise people in a way that you can determine just how many are knowledgeable of your agenda and how many agree with it.

What I find corrupt in conventional/traditional/fundamentalist Christianity is that it is often not "real faith" in the sense of seeking something personal with God, but socio-political alignment. A lot of beliefs and doctrine taught in conventional/traditional/fundamentalist Christianity is just a way of determining one's socio-political alignment, not about "real faith."

While I do disagree with certain "doctrines" my disagreement is more with the socio-political alignment of adherents of Christianity around these doctrines, than specifically with the doctrines themselves. What disturbs me more is how these ideas become "established" and "dominant" than whether or not they are themselves reasonable. My concern is more with the activity of religious faith than the definition of one's religious faith.

A good description of various ways in which Christianity devolved into Christendom
 
Or, in other words, love and compassion- truth- devolved into human-made institutions and quests for power.

Yes, that is how it works. I like the way Simone Weil puts it:

"In the Church, considered as a social organism, the mysteries inevitably degenerate into beliefs."

And these beliefs become forms of power and control. Where the church should help us to inwardly grow at the expense of power, secularism prefers to direct and control our fallen nature to establish its power.
 
path said:
I respectfully disagree. The legends of the Celts indicated that they already foresaw the Christ, even though missionaries had not yet reached them... I think the Christ is a living manifestation of the Divine and reaches people whether or not our measly movements go anywhere. We may not be having this conversation, but that says nothing about whether or not I would find Christ and God in my life. Many cultures had ideas about an unknown God, or a savior. Even long before Jesus' life and the NT, there were myths of the god-incarnate that dies and rises again.

Interestingly enough, there is evidence of Druid priests conducting sacrifices of cattle to the gods of the underworld, for example at the temple in Gourney, which in turn induced the gods to return good fortune and good produce. Dionenes wrote that traditionally there are three basic truths held by the Druids: the need to honor the gods, to do no evil, and to be brave, things consistent with what the Israelites were exhorted to do.

There is also evidence of human sacrifices, according to Julius Caesar. A quote from this article, from which I have gotten most of my information, should spark some interest:

"The Celts believed, in common with many less evolved religions, not only in an “eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth” but in “a life for a life”, so a sick man’s relatives might sacrifice someone so that the gods might spare his life."

Source: Celtic Religion

path said:
People come to have a life in the Spirit, bearing the fruit of such, all over the world and from all different religions, times, places, and cultures. And to me, this affirms my faith that God is omniscient, omnipotent, and always available to any sincerely seeking soul. We need only open ourselves and God is all around us, and Christ is waiting to fill the void with God's grace. We do not even have to know the story of Jesus, or Jesus' name, or anything about it, to be touched by the grace of God that is through the living Christ. We are blessed if we have the gospels, but the message of the Christ is a living message.

This much I can agree with.

Personally, I have no doubt God is just, but I can't wrap my head or heart around a jealous God with the same petty emotions I have. Even I can get beyond jealousy and wrath, and I'm so small compared to God. The sort of God that strikes people dead for failing in some small ritualistic way is not the God I know in my own life.

I can see why one would think this way, by a cursory reading of certain OT passages. But I believe a broader picture is presented when one considers the intent in regards to God's relationship with Israel.

1) God chose Israel to be a people He can call His own. He promised Abraham that through him all the nations of the earth and that his descendants would number the stars in the sky and the grains of sand on the beach. In doing so, God had to establish the highest standard to keep Israel in line with what kind of people He wanted preserved throughout her history. Hence the strict edicts of the Law. The Law represents the Holiness of the Lord, from which there could be no shadow of turning, no variance, the natural inclination of a righteous God. So naturally, since the Law is strict, so must be the penalty for breaking the Law, which usually meant death. Well, obviously, people of Israel were poor keepers of the Law, and hence the development of a system of Atonement, which was likewise strict. So strict that there was danger even in the performance of the ritual.

You speak of being small in relationship with God. You are right, because we could never attain the righteousness that the Law demands. It isn't that God just made up arbitrary Laws impossible to keep just to mess with the Jews. But He was in the business of preservation.

2) And part of that preservation was the isolation of outside influences that would draw the people away from the high standard that God had for them. It is in this area that we are presented with the idea of a jealous God. His love for Israel meant that He doesn't want them to destroy themselves as a people that He has chosen for the purposes He designed. That meant coming against the pagan practices prevalent in the cultures of those surrounding Israel, which threatened to disrupt that plan. In most cases, if not all, where there was a widescale elimination of whole cities, it is because those nations struck first. As unfair it seemed to those peoples destroy, it was a necessary evil for the sake of God's people.

3) I don't know why God favors Israel, but that no other ancient nation has ever been revived to become a nation again after 2000 years of diaspora wraps my head around.



 
Interestingly enough, there is evidence of Druid priests conducting sacrifices of cattle to the gods of the underworld, for example at the temple in Gourney, which in turn induced the gods to return good fortune and good produce. Dionenes wrote that traditionally there are three basic truths held by the Druids: the need to honor the gods, to do no evil, and to be brave, things consistent with what the Israelites were exhorted to do.

These types of things are consistent all over the world. Ideas about gods of underworld/death, earth/life, and heaven/over-world are also common, as is the idea of sacrifice. They are consistent with pastoral-early agrarian people who relied heavily on natural cycles for food production, but did not have benefits of modern science to explain a lot of it. It is amazing that many of them, with limited technology, got so far as they did.

Sacrifice, even human sacrifice, was common among all sorts of civilizations at that stage of human development- the Inca, Maya, Aztec, Celts, Middle Eastern peoples, etc. all had this.

I tend to see it as a stage of human development, which, thank goodness, we've mostly gotten over and so we no longer see blood offerings as something desirable.

There is also evidence of human sacrifices, according to Julius Caesar. A quote from this article, from which I have gotten most of my information, should spark some interest:

"The Celts believed, in common with many less evolved religions, not only in an “eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth” but in “a life for a life”, so a sick man’s relatives might sacrifice someone so that the gods might spare his life."

Source: Celtic Religion


Human sacrifice rarely happened, but did on occasion. We do not know if these were primarily religious or if they were religious means of using capital punishment. The Druids were the judges and advisors to the rulers, not just the priests. There is evidence in some findings of bog bodies that ergot poisoning may have caused some people to go mad, and perhaps they were killed as a result, much as ergot has also been linked to witch trials.

All that said, the Romans' texts on the Druids are largely considered war-time propaganda and thus historically inaccurate. We know very little about the Druids, and what little we do know is primarily through archaeological evidence. The Druids' and Bards' method of knowledge-keeping was through years (over a decade) of intense training in which vast stores of geneaological, folk science, magical, spiritual and other knowledge was committed to memory, and practices done to bring divine inspiration. While some of this knowledge and belief seemed to be later entwined with Celtic Christianity, much of it was lost with the coming of Christian missionaries and the wars between Rome and the Celts, which disrupted the traditional Celtic social system.

The Romans and Celts each saw the other as barbaric and distasteful, so it would be historically likely that there was no unbiased reporting at the time. The Romans had every reason to distort the Celtic religion, society, and culture in order to get support for wars against them, which is largely where legends about the Wicker Man and so forth come from (and for which there is no evidence). The reality is that while we don't know a lot about the Druids, we do know that Celtic society had relative equality for women at a time when the Romans did not, that the Druids and Bards influenced the rulers heavily, and that they blended science, magic, and religion together with philosophy, law, and the arts (particularly poetry and music). While many of the ideas in traditional Druidry and Christianity were complementary or similar, the Druids did not welcome Christian missionaries. Though one can hardly blame them since missionaries were associated with armies and political domination, as well as a cultural system that valued gender stratification and far less individual freedom.​

1) God chose Israel to be a people He can call His own. He promised Abraham that through him all the nations of the earth and that his descendants would number the stars in the sky and the grains of sand on the beach. In doing so, God had to establish the highest standard to keep Israel in line with what kind of people He wanted preserved throughout her history. Hence the strict edicts of the Law. The Law represents the Holiness of the Lord, from which there could be no shadow of turning, no variance, the natural inclination of a righteous God. So naturally, since the Law is strict, so must be the penalty for breaking the Law, which usually meant death.

I know this explanation, but it still makes no sense to me. It is clear that much of the law distinguished the Israelites from surrounding, competing tribes culturally and that Israel was, through successive displacements, at risk for losing cultural solidarity and so it makes sense it would believe that deviation from the law would mean death. It all makes sense to me socially. What does not make sense is how it relates to the God I know, worship, and love.

You speak of being small in relationship with God. You are right, because we could never attain the righteousness that the Law demands. It isn't that God just made up arbitrary Laws impossible to keep just to mess with the Jews. But He was in the business of preservation.

I don't think the laws were arbitrary, but nor do I think they were all handed from God direct to the Jews. I am not even sure many Jews would believe the law is untouched by social norms and standards. The law clearly outlays a series of rules and standards that would make Israel a distinct culture in situations of displacement and I can see it has many social functionings, as well as the potential to initiate the mystery of relationship with God through submission and community. But there is a difference between that and buying into the entire Bible as if society and culture had nothing to do with it. The Jews themselves have a running commentary on what it all means, so I have no idea why Christians feel they must look at it all from only one perspective, frozen in time.

Of course I feel small in righteousness, but I mean more than that. I am small in understanding. My awareness of my own limitations makes me very wary of attaching myself too much to any of my ideas, or other people's ideas.​

2) And part of this preservation was the isolation of outside influences that would draw the people away from the high standard that God had for them. It is in this area that we are presented with the idea of a jealous God. His love for Israel meant that He doesn't want them to destroy themselves as a people that He has chosen for the purposes He designed. That meant coming against the pagan practices prevalent in the cultures of those surrounding Israel, which threatened to disrupt that plan.

Or in secular terms, losing cultural solidarity would mean a threat to cultural survival. We can see this happen in other places in the world to other societies, and the same sort of fight against it. I can understand how it is interpreted as having to do with God, but I am not sure how this is materially any different from every other case of cultural survival.

As for coming against the pagan practices, at that time, it was the norm for each tribe/people to have their own god/goddess/suite of gods and to believe their own would triumph and give them advantage in war. It was nothing new, and it is partly why you end up with so many saints in Catholicism. Some of those are remnants of local gods and goddesses that were more expedient to include than to debunk in order to get local people to cooperate. Really, when you study world history and anthropology, you see this stuff happen all over the world and so while I can understand the justification of it religiously, that doesn't make it distinguished from all the other groups that also justified their actions religiously. It was very common at the time.

The whole "paganism disrupting the plan" thing also makes no sense to me. An omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent God can't be threatened in His will/plan by mere beliefs of people. Paganism has never been a threat, just a way of people trying to reach out to God.

In most cases, if not all, where there was a widescale elimination of whole cities, it is because those nations struck first. As unfair it seemed to those peoples destroy, it was a necessary evil for the sake of God's people.

I think that is incredibly dangerous. It is this kind of thinking that causes genocide. Arguably, Hitler looked at the Jews in this way, and he was dead wrong. Anyone can justify anything by saying "But it is your fault- you did XYZ first!" or "It's a necessary evil (i.e., God says the ends justifies the means, even though the means is horrific!" I think such thinking can easily become the roots of justifying genocide, and indeed it has justified the slaughter of innocent people (remember, they slaughtered children in those examples) for all kinds of political, social, and religious entities. It is only a matter of who we believe is "right" and "really justified" that separates them out.

There are parents in the US who have said they killed their own children because God told them to do it. We say they are crazy and put them in jail. But what is the difference? Only our own belief about the matter.​

3) I don't know why God favors Israel, but that no other ancient nation has ever been revived to become a nation again after 2000 years of diaspora wraps my head around.

All that said, I do not think that means Israel has no purpose as a people. It is mind-boggling to have a diaspora for so long that later becomes a nation again.
 
That's exactly my point. It isn't that God needed some perfect being's blood spilled so he could forgive us. It is that Jesus came to demonstrate the perfect grace and love of God in a human life, and through demonstrating this to his very death, turned people back to God.

None of that has to do with spilling of blood as a requirement. The crucifixion becomes not a requirement of God's forgiveness, but a demonstration of it. That is a very different doctrine than the substitutionary atonement sacrifice one.


I never said that it was, nor would any Christian who believes that God is sovereign, and can do as he pleases (including forgiving whomever he'd like to forgive). If you knew me better, you'd know that I'm not big on theology and doctrine, and the whole "substitutionary atonement sacrifice" idea is, to me, unneccessarily complicated. But that doesn't change the fact that Jesus' coming and death were necessary for salvation.

What happened to people when they died during OT times? Good or bad, they went to the same place: the grave (Sheol in Hebrew, Hades in Greek). "The grave sucks," David said in one of his psalms (loose translation, of course), and besought God for salvation instead of the fate awaiting him. Before Jesus conquered death (the grave, Sheol, Hades, whatever you'd like to call it), this was mankind's common fate: to sleep with our fathers, as it was written in the book of Genesis, of Psalms, of Daniel, etc. There is more to salvation than just forgiveness; salvation means hope, and there is no hope in the grave. There is nothing in the grave.

Forget about blood sacrifices and all that stuff: Jesus was killed, but didn't die, because God gave him authority over death. And if you believe as I believe, this is what gives hope: that though death in this world is inevitable, there may be life in the next through salvation, which is not only forgiveness of sins, but also the grace of God as he not only removes punishment, but adds the reward of eternal life.

Jesus' sacrifice was necessary for salvation, then, because salvation simply did not exist so long as mankind lived under the curse to simply return to dust.
 
Marsh, I may not entirely agree, but I understand where you are coming from now and I don't entirely disagree either. The last post helped a lot.

And I have to say, you get my award for best translation: "The grave sucks." That gave me a chuckle. :)
 
Namaste Marsh,

And according to the bible hasn't everyone since then also gone to the grave?


According to the Bible, everyone who died before Jesus' resurrection went to the grave. However, from my reading it appears that those who are forgiven through their faith in Jesus Christ do not, but rather go to be with him in what we refer to as Heaven (though, in truth, the real Heaven is far different from what is taught in Sunday School). My evidence for this is the scene from Revelation 7:

9After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10And they cried out in a loud voice:
"Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb." 11All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12saying:
"Amen!
Praise and glory
and wisdom and thanks and honor
and power and strength
be to our God for ever and ever.
Amen!"
13Then one of the elders asked me, "These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?"

14I answered, "Sir, you know."

And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15Therefore,
"they are before the throne of God
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne will spread his tent over them.
16Never again will they hunger;
never again will they thirst.
The sun will not beat upon them,
nor any scorching heat.
17For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd;
he will lead them to springs of living water.
And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."

It seems clear to me that these people have not gone to the grave, but to the Father, and that it was through Jesus Christ that this became possible. In my opinion, that's what Jesus meant when he said "I am the way, the truth, and the life, and nobody comes to the Father except through me." While other hardcore Christian types believe this means that those who don't believe in Jesus are condemned, I instead believe it means that those who do believe have options that others do not... for the time being. Keep in mind that all of this is before the end of the age, and final judgement.
 
.........no he did not die for his followers sins. He died for everyones sins.

Since he did not put in a formal request asking my permission to die for my sins such a claim is void and false. Why do prophets always have such huge egos?
 
.........no he did not die for his followers sins. He died for everyones sins.


This is a bit of a semantics game, but I'll play along. Alex, I don't think that Jesus died for everyone's sins per se. Theoretically he could have, but using what Tao just said as my example it's pretty clear that not everyone accepts Jesus' sacrifice. In that sense, Jesus did not die for Tao's sins.

I said theoretically because it is theoretically possible for every human being to someday put their faith in Jesus, and in the sacrifice he made. For example, a person who does not believe in Jesus now may believe in him later. Likewise, a person who believes in him now may not believe in him later. Also, being a Christian does not necessarily mean that Jesus has died for your sins, as the concept is a matter of faith, and not every person who professes a belief in Jesus actually believes in Jesus.

Jesus died so that people may have forgiveness for their sins, but not everybody believes that they need to be forgiven.
 
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