GlorytoGod
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are your views on hell as in the abrahamic faiths based on scripture ? if so care to post a link, or are you talking from personal experience.
so whats Hell Like ?
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are your views on hell as in the abrahamic faiths based on scripture ? if so care to post a link, or are you talking from personal experience.
T
Tao_Equus
Guest
Hi FoB and welcome.
Any Bill in particular ?..... I have an electric bill you can befriend if you like
That could be a definition of family, work or marriage too.
Any Bill in particular ?..... I have an electric bill you can befriend if you like
That could be a definition of family, work or marriage too.
In early Abrahamic faith, the concept of sheol existed. It is believed by the Jews in majority including the later Pharisees.
Only those disbelieved the Oral Torah rejected this concept. They are from the rich circle and are in minority.
Actually, if it's not because of the afterlife and sheol concepts, the judgment and salvation concepts will become invalid. Yet most Jew held firmly these concepts. That's actually why when Jesus told the Lazarus parable, the Jews understood right away. Parable is usually used to explain uneasy to grasp philosophy with some concepts which people are very familiar with. So if 'sheol' and 'heaven' concepts are in Parables, which means Jews in that period are truly familiar with such concepts.
There's an other place near Jerusalem call Gehenna with constant fire. All Jesus said is that sheol will finally be thrown into the Lake of Fire, as if the constant fire in Gehenna.
When these concepts are translated from Hebrew to other languages such as Greek, the term 'Hades' is used as an equivalent for 'sheol', while 'Hell' as 'Gehenna' (a place with eternal fire). Yet sometimes 'hell' is also exchangeably used with 'sheol' to refer to the physical location 'sheol'.
In short, hell/sheol/Hades refers to the same physical location where the souls of people will finally go. After the final judgment, death and Hades will be thrown to the Lake of Fire, then Hades will thus become Gehenna or Hell.
Ok, so why do people go there in the first place? Is hell fair? Even if you know that a majority of people has a faith different then your own?
I quote:
This isn't fair, but living in an environment that is not paradise cannot be fair. How then can judgment be fair? Those who have had the slightest opportunity to accept Christ will be compared to those who have had ample opportunity. If but one amongst those who has had the slightest opportunity finds his way through the narrow gate and acknowledges Christ as his Saviour, those who have had equal, or greater, opportunity will be without excuse, should they reject Christ.
This is a comment by a Christian.
I quote again:
As for other nations [consider the person] who imputes lying to the Prophet [saw] after he has heard of the impeccable and undeniable transmission of his appearance, his quality and his miracles that suspended normal laws, such as his splitting the moon, the pebbles praising God in his hand, the welling up of water from between his fingers, and the miraculous Quran revealed to him, that challenged the eloquent to rival it but [all who tried] failed; if all of this information has reached his ears, yet he shuns it, turns his back, does not consider it or reflect on it, and does not hasten to believe in it, then such a person is indeed a denier and a liar, and he indeed is a disbeliever (kaafir)
This is a comment by a muslim.
Get my point? Now I have heard both messages. Now what to do?
I follow one of them perfectly, but if I follow the wrong one, I will still go to hell? What if I live in a hindu family surrounded by hindus and I hear the message of Islam / Christianity, will I have to follow and what if I don't?
There is even talk in Islam that going to heaven or hell is predetermined, you can do actions but you will do the actions that you will like according to what God already knows about you. Nice prospect, isn't it? And the only answer you get if you ask the question is: you shouldnt ask questions, God is just, only God knows why things happen the way they do, and you get quotes like the two stated above.
I seriously am at loss about how believers of any faith can just accept this kind of thing and not even worrying about it, that for ex their non-believing mother or neighbour would be tortured by their God forever.
It makes me want to go on strike against God / Allah. But I guess from a religious perspective its the most dangerous thing to do.
I quote:
This isn't fair, but living in an environment that is not paradise cannot be fair. How then can judgment be fair? Those who have had the slightest opportunity to accept Christ will be compared to those who have had ample opportunity. If but one amongst those who has had the slightest opportunity finds his way through the narrow gate and acknowledges Christ as his Saviour, those who have had equal, or greater, opportunity will be without excuse, should they reject Christ.
This is a comment by a Christian.
I quote again:
As for other nations [consider the person] who imputes lying to the Prophet [saw] after he has heard of the impeccable and undeniable transmission of his appearance, his quality and his miracles that suspended normal laws, such as his splitting the moon, the pebbles praising God in his hand, the welling up of water from between his fingers, and the miraculous Quran revealed to him, that challenged the eloquent to rival it but [all who tried] failed; if all of this information has reached his ears, yet he shuns it, turns his back, does not consider it or reflect on it, and does not hasten to believe in it, then such a person is indeed a denier and a liar, and he indeed is a disbeliever (kaafir)
This is a comment by a muslim.
Get my point? Now I have heard both messages. Now what to do?
I follow one of them perfectly, but if I follow the wrong one, I will still go to hell? What if I live in a hindu family surrounded by hindus and I hear the message of Islam / Christianity, will I have to follow and what if I don't?
There is even talk in Islam that going to heaven or hell is predetermined, you can do actions but you will do the actions that you will like according to what God already knows about you. Nice prospect, isn't it? And the only answer you get if you ask the question is: you shouldnt ask questions, God is just, only God knows why things happen the way they do, and you get quotes like the two stated above.
I seriously am at loss about how believers of any faith can just accept this kind of thing and not even worrying about it, that for ex their non-believing mother or neighbour would be tortured by their God forever.
It makes me want to go on strike against God / Allah. But I guess from a religious perspective its the most dangerous thing to do.
Saltmeister
The Dangerous Dinner
Although I often like the idea that if people were to follow my own journey through this, they'd be able to resolve these issues, I know it's pretty hard to do. Shoehorning my own experiences onto another person isn't always possible and doesn't always work, but I will try. Although I would like the idea of making you my follower/disciple on this,
I hate the idea of being responsible for someone else's journey and having to hang around, worrying about what they might be thinking.Personally, I think you should avoid questions like, "is hell fair" or "is everyone else doomed?" These questions are black and white. They're extreme. Why do you have to ask such extreme, black and white questions? Who is getting you to do this?
To some extent I can understand that people like asking these questions because they demonstrate audacity and boldness. A Christian or Muslim who asks extreme questions or expresses extreme views is highlighting the greatness in his religion.
But nobody ever said that being Christian or Muslim required that one praise the greatness in his religion or demonstrate audacity and boldness by asking extreme, black and white questions.
I believe you are asking the wrong questions here. I believe people are never satisfied with answers to extremist questions because they simply go too far. The extremist questions themselves are ridiculous and outrageous and this leads people to provide ridiculous and outrageous answers.
The notion of hell certainly has shock value, but considering that nobody ever defined hell, nobody can be sure if it's unfair or barbaric. Like I said previously, a lot of things in a religion are literary constructs that help to explore an idea. What people have said about hell can be metaphorical. The word "hell" can mean anything. At least in Christianity's New Testament, there are a number of different words that refer to different things like gehenna or sheol. The Jesus in Christianity gave descriptions but never made any rules.
Jesus says in the NT that some will have eternal life while others will simply perish. That seems to suggest that some people will simply die. The good thing in that is that you can escape an afterlife you don't want. Some people don't want to live forever. I think there might also be many stories Jesus told in the NT that aren't about hell at all (although that is the traditional thinking), but about us missing out on connecting with the "Kingdom of God" in our present earthly lives. So maybe heaven is right here with us in spiritual form. We just need to see it.
The looser a concept is, the more pointless it is to be asking extreme, black and white questions. The issue was never supposed to be so black and white. If it was, people wouldn't be confused and arguing over it. The need to ask yes/no questions and provide yes-no answers is an exercise in futility. Having said that, the "hell" in Christianity is probably supposed to be a very vague concept that could mean a hundred different things. The question of who goes there is also vague. The question of whether it refers to our present earthly lives or a future afterlife is also often vague.
There is a good reason why it's so vague. If it's so important, it can't be based on rules. If it was based on rules, we'd be able to manipulate God into opening the door for us. Following rules doesn't necessarily make you a nice person, which is why, if you wanted to get to heaven, following rules is not going to qualify you.
The idea that either Christians and Muslims go to heaven, that the others must be infidels and heretics is indeed a ridiculous position to have. You are right in complaining about it. For God to disqualify people just because of their religious identity, He'd have to be racist or a bigot, and I don't believe in such a God.
It has to be something else other than Islam or Christianity. Islam and Christianity are just traditions that guide us there. The journey and destination are more important than the tradition you use to get there. To put so much faith into a tradition, to the point where you insist that others must follow it, is to completely miss the point of a tradition. That tradition helped a lot of people, but it can't help everybody. A tradition is created to help people remember something that was important. It's not supposed to be exclusive.
I believe there are a lot of pointless, counterproductive barriers that people have set up between Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
This is an opinion from a Christian.
so . . . I would take it personally if you didn't count my opinion in, because if you wanted an extreme view that reinforces your doubts, I reckon I gave some pretty extreme views there.
They could also be regarded as moderate/liberal views -- but whatever you like -- just count me as one.
Dream
Well-Known Member
Courage, great post and I have a few reservations about what you said:Courage said:
I did not know that the Oral Torah insisted upon hell. Is oral torah something that you can readily reference and where do I read the things you've mentioned? I do know that Opposing groups have always existed among Jews, but those groups seem to be mainly in disagreement about how to live while the philosophical seems merely an aspect of that. Maybe I should be reading more about that. I think in one of the translations of Josephus there is mentioned an 'Unfinished' part of the world, and one group of teachers around the Christian beginning said evildoers would go there after death. It sounds a bit like visualization though, and it does not at all match the Christian descriptions of hell in which souls burn eternally. It does seem to mimic the scene in Jesus parable about Jesus and the rich man, so which thing does hell describe? I notice that parables don't reflect reality but are fanciful stories that emphasize a point to be made. In the parable of the rich man, it is really odd for instance that Abraham is separated by a gulf yet the suffering people can talk with him.(Luke 16:26) It seems very fanciful description, whereas Jesus point was that people who don't listen to Moses & the Prophets on their own still won't even if their own brother is resurrected to tell them to. It just doesn't seem like the parable is meant to describe reality directly.
If you've read something about eternal suffering in the Eternal Torah, how do you distinguish it from the furnace that is described as Egypt in Deut 4:20? Why was Egypt described as a furnace of affliction though the Israelis lived in the best part of the land? I sense a strong tendency to visualize idolatry of Egypt as related to their suffering. They were kept as a lower class in Egypt, but that is generally what always has happened whenever they lived in somebody else's country right up through these modern times. This captivity is described as a furnace, yet what is the fire really? It certainly does seem eternal. Another thing is that some people have said Judaism has a concept of reincarnation. How does that figure in?
Gatekeeper
Shades of Reason
You already know what hell is like. Thank god for the heavenly hosts that bear it with us, helping to pull us from its clutches. GTG, I think our lives have been spent in the furnace known as hell. We are born in corruption, prone to sin because we are selfish. The wages of sin are death. Our bodies die because our bodies are corrupted by (Wicked) desires, which is Lust.
In the beginning God's Essence (Spirit) and matter (God's Substance) merged together to create (Life). "Let us create them (Man) in our image and they shall have dominion over ..." Thus man was born of God (+), from the earth (-).
Both aspects of God were and are equally yoked, and are VERY good; both are needed for us (Mankind) to experience Life "Consciousness". Satan however, came as a result of this merging. Satan came by means of free will, which is the result of mankind being created a "Conscious" being. Our bodies are containers that can be filled with the the spirit of satan (Our selfish Will) or the Spirit of God (His selfless will), or rather Love.
Wickedness stems from the (Selfish) aspects of our consciousness, while Love stems from the (Selfless) aspects of our consciousness. Selfishness leads to suffering, while selflessness leads us to joy and peace. It was the (Selfishness) of mankind, stemming from our free will that brought us to know evil which was the cause of the the fall of man from heaven (Paradise) and into the "Hell" we have known on earth.
God in man is Love (Selfless Will). Satan in man is Lust (Selfish Will). Lust and carnal desires are the spirit of Satan, which leads us to death. Selfless Love on the other hand, is the Spirit of God, which leads to life (Everlasting). Both are opposed to one another, and seem to war against one another. Satan, which is our Wicked desires war against God who is (Love); it is a battle which has been going on within man and on earth since the fall.
Jesus conquered Satan (Selfish Will) in himself, and He did so by living through the power of God (Love). He was of God's Spirit, and it was through God's Spirit of Love that He defeated His own desires. He was the first of all men to overcome His self will, whereby He has become the faithful and rightful Heir (King) of God's Kingdom. He now helps US do the same, along with all the heavenly Hosts.
We are able to receive forgiveness in this life when we follow him by loving God and neighbor as ourselves, whereby we become God's children again, and are reconciled back to the father of all creation. It is through a selfless Love that we are no longer remembered as children of Satan, and because we have chosen God (Love) over our own selfish, wicked and self serving desires.
Malachi 3:1-5
GK
shawn
Well-Known Member
Maybe.
The cause of all suffering is desire, you desire but can never hold onto the object of your desire as all objects are transitory and satisfaction can never be attained.
You eat and get hungry again; you win but after the win another challenge presents itself, etc, etc, ad infinitum.
The cause of all suffering is desire, you desire but can never hold onto the object of your desire as all objects are transitory and satisfaction can never be attained.
You eat and get hungry again; you win but after the win another challenge presents itself, etc, etc, ad infinitum.
dark-in-the-whale
New Member
Very vague. The Lake of Fire (Revelation)? Sheol, Gehenna? Medieval theologians are the guys who discovered it was something to threaten people with.
bob x
Well-Known Member
Sheol, literally "the pit", just meant "the grave". Continued consciousness of any kind while in the grave is not something most Jews have ever believed in.
Bhaktajan II
Hare Krishna Yogi
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Stratums of life that are truely below our own personality's perferences.
Remember the movie "Trading Place" with Eddie Murphy & Dan Ackroid.
Aside from Hellish conditions of life at the sub-human species of life ---there are stations in life occupied by other living souls that we would never trade anything for to experience. Such stations in life are objectively rate-able as to desirablity by every common person.
It is possible to possess the mentailty that while living in hell ---the occupant doesn't seem to mind nor notice the predicament as lamentable.
Remember the movie "Trading Place" with Eddie Murphy & Dan Ackroid.
Aside from Hellish conditions of life at the sub-human species of life ---there are stations in life occupied by other living souls that we would never trade anything for to experience. Such stations in life are objectively rate-able as to desirablity by every common person.
It is possible to possess the mentailty that while living in hell ---the occupant doesn't seem to mind nor notice the predicament as lamentable.
Bhaktajan II
Hare Krishna Yogi
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The crowds are all seeking four catagories: sustenance, shelter, rest, copulation ---that's why 'we bother to do it all':
http://s3.amazonaws.com/hypertextopia/public/uploads/511/penguins.jpg
and/or:
http://s3.amazonaws.com/hypertextopia/public/uploads/511/penguins.jpg
and/or:
Marsh
Disagreeable By Nature
From a Christian point of view, if there are differing theories as to whether hell exists now or after judgment, they are unscriptural. Jesus speaks of Hell as a place of destruction. The Lake of Fire, which is empty until the end, is that place of final destruction; I think the descriptions in Revelation are pretty clear about that. Sheol still exists, as it has always existed. The only difference that has happened since the time of Abraham is that Jesus opened the gates to Heaven, adding a second option to where a person might end up after their death (Heaven or Sheol).
The concept of the Heaven/Hell dichotomy is unscriptural. It has been imported from other religions, either unintentionally (as in the case of newly-converted Christians in the early church bringing their previous assumptions with them) or intentionally (as in priests who converted to Christianity rather than end up unemployed, and subtly inserting their ideas into the gospel).
The reason why it has as of yet never been disenfranchised from formal doctrine is because of the power it gives to the church over the believers who believe in Jesus because they are afraid not to, for risk of burning in Hell. It has also been the prime motivator to turn peaceful Christians militant (spiritually or otherwise) in their crusade to save non-believers from the fires of Hell.
Salaam Sister,
I have answered part of the same question in the how do you know what to believe? thread and inshALlah will try and give you a bit more persective on it sister
:It is not such sayings that you should be judging religions on sister but the text of their scriptures and the meanings of it; do they make sense? are they uncontradictory to the common sense, logic and intellect?, do they sound like something God would reveal?, what are there proofs for authenticity [i.e, that they have not been distorted thruogh time], what are the proof for the miracles that the prophet Muhammad [saw] is reported to have done and is the Quran indeed miraculous?, etc, etc, and above all sister, one has to be sincere in their investigation, i.e they really have to want to find out the truth with Gods help ofcourse and then the truth will manifest itself, but the intellectual investigation and sincerity is the path to it...
People of all non-Muslim religions, they are not responsible for what they believe when they are children for they cannot resist the indoctrination of their parents/guardians, but when their adults, their developed brains makes them see that they just believe what they do because their parents brought them up in that faith and it is not nesseccarily the truth from God; also contradictions will be manifest to their intellect too, thus they are then responsible for finding out the truth..., so people being born into non-Muslim religions is not an excuse for allways to remain as they are...; here is an explanation from Shaykh Abu-Aminah Bilal Philps:
The question which arises here is, "How can all people be expected to believe in Allah given their varying- backgrounds, societies and cultures? For people to be responsible for worshipping Allah they all have to have access to knowledge of Allah. The final revelation teaches that all mankind have the recognition of Allah imprinted on their souls, a part of their very nature with which they are created.
In Soorah Al-A'raaf, Verses 172-173; Allah explained that when He created Adam, He caused all of Adam's descendants to come into existence and took a pledge from them saying, Am I not your Lord? To which they all replied, " Yes, we testify to It:'
Allah then explained why He had all of mankind bear witness that He is their creator and only true God worthy of worship. He said, "That was In case you (mankind) should say on the day of Resurrection, "Verily we were unaware of all this." That is to say, we had no idea that You Allah, were our God. No one told us that we were only supposed to worship You alone. Allah went on to explain That it was also In case you should say, "Certainly It was our ancestors who made partners (With Allah) and we are only their descendants; will You then destroy us for what those liars did?" Thus, every child is born with a natural belief in Allah and an inborn inclination to worship Him alone called in Arabic the "Fitrah".
If the child were left alone, he would worship Allah in his own way, but all children are affected by those things around them, seen or unseen.
The Prophet (PBUH) reported that Allah said, "I created my servants in the right religion but devils made them go astray". The Prophet (PBUH) also said, "Each child is born in a state of "Fitrah", then his parents make him a Jew, Christian or a Zoroastrian, the way an animal gives birth to a normal offspring. Have you noticed any that were born mutilated?" (Collected by Al-Bukhaaree and Muslim).
So, just as the child submits to the physical laws which Allah has put in nature, his soul also submits naturally to the fact that Allah is his Lord and Creator. But, his parents try to make him follow their own way and the child is not strong enough in the early stages of his life to resist or oppose the will of his parents. The religion which the child follows at this stage is one of custom and upbringing and Allah does not hold him to account or punish him for this religion. (By Abu Ameena Bilal Phillips ) Read more:
That is concerning just the belief in one Allah and ofcourse one is responsible for believing in the absolute essentials of Islam too once they get the message of it; they do have time ofcourse to investigate to their hearts content if the initial message is not convincing enough...
Here is an explanation about how predestination does not contradict 'free-will', of one of the two foremost imaams in mainstream Islamic theolgy:
Al‑Maturidi combated the views of the Jabrites and the Mu'tazilites on the above questions and he also disagreed with al‑Ash'ari on certain points. Refuting the absolute determinism of the Jabrites, he says that the relation between God and man should not be considered to be the same as that between God and the physical world. God has endowed man with reason, with the power of distinguishing between right and wrong, and with the faculties of thinking, feeling, willing, and judging, and has sent messengers and revealed books for his guidance. Man inclines and directs his mind towards something which he thinks may benefit him, restrains himself from what he thinks will harm him, chooses one of the alternative courses of action by the exercise of his own reason, and thinks himself responsible for the merits or demerits of his actions. Now, while he thinks, desires, inclines, chooses, and acts, he always considers himself quite free, and never thinks or feels that any outside agency compels him to do any of his actions. This consciousness of freedom, al‑Maturidi asserts, is a reality, the denial of which will lead to the denial of all human knowledge and sciences. Quoting passages from the Qur'an [33] he also shows that the actions enjoined or prohibited by God are ascribed to men, and that they will be accountable for their "own" actions. All this clearly proves that God has granted men freedom of choice and necessary power to perform an action. The denial of this freedom will mean that God is wholly responsible for all human actions and is liable to blame or punishment for sins committed by men, yet on the Day of Judgment He will punish them for His own actions. This is quite absurd, as God has described Himself in the Qur'an as the most wise, just, and compassionate. [34]
But how can human freedom be reconciled with the Qur'anic conception of the all‑embracing divine will, power, eternal decree, and God's authorship of all human actions? Al‑Maturidi's explanations may be summed up as follows.
Creation belongs to God alone and all human actions, good or bad, are willed, decreed, and created by Him. Creation means bringing forth of an action from non‑existence into existence by one who possesses absolute power and complete knowledge in respect of that action. As man does not know all the circumstances, causes, conditions, or the results of his action, and does not possess within himself the requisite power for producing an action, he cannot be regarded as the creator (khaliq) of his action. Now, when it is proved that God is the creator of all human actions, it will necessarily follow that He also wills these actions, because divine action must be preceded by divine will. So nothing can happen in the world against or without the will of God. But, though God wills and creates human actions, He is not liable to blame or accountable for their actions, because divine will is determined by divine knowledge and He creates the action when a man in the free exercise of his reason chooses and intends to perform an action. Thus, God wills an action good or evil, which He knows a man will choose, and when ultimately he chooses and intends to acquire it God creates that act as a good or evil act for him. From this, it will be clear that God's willing or creating an evil action is not inconsistent with His wisdom and goodness. Because, God wills the happening of the evil because He desires the individual to exercise free choice, but being wise and just He always prohibits the choice of evil. So, though sins are in accordance with His will, they are never in accordance with His command, pleasure, desire, or guidance. Sin, then, according to al‑Maturidi, consists not in going against the divine will, but in violating the divine law, command, guidance, pleasure, or desire.
The basis of man's obligation and responsibility (taklif), al‑Maturidi main*tains, does not consist in his possessing the power to create an action, but it is the freedom to choose (ikhtiyar) and the freedom to acquire an action (iktisab), conferred on man as a rational being, which make him responsible and accountable. [35]
As regards eternal divine decree (qada' and qadar) al‑Maturidi holds that it is not inconsistent with human freedom, nor does it imply any compulsion on the part of man, because it is an eternal record based on foreknowledge. God decrees the act He knows from eternity that a man will choose and acquire freely. Man cannot deny his own responsibilities on the ground of the divine decree, al‑Maturidi adds; he cannot do so on account of time and space within which actions must be done. So, though man is not absolutely free, God has granted him necessary freedom consistent with his obligation and, therefore, the divine decree relating to human actions should not be regarded the same as in relation to the physical world. [36]
<A href="http://www.muslimphilosophy.com/hmp/16.htm">www.muslimphilosophy.com/hmp/16.htm
Sister, dont know wether you have seen the following but it does try and explain of why the most Mercifull God will throw some people into hell forever
:http://www.interfaith.org/forum/216407-post30.html
And here are some links that could help you decide between Christianity and Islam:
http://www.interfaith.org/forum/216296-post15.html
http://www.interfaith.org/forum/216297-post16.html
All the best Sister
Salam
shawn
Well-Known Member
Another satanic document then as only a devil would do such a thing....it does try and explain of why the most Mercifull God will throw some people into hell forever
Shameful and deceitful religious propaganda.
Abdullah, thank you for your answer, also in the other post.
Well, I am sorry to say that it did not help me much. As I continue to read about Islam more into the details, there are some parts about it that I find absolutely horrifying. I guess the only thing that would make me believe in any religion would be to see the living example of goodness and really making the world a better place, as opposed to darkness of non-religious people. But so far, I see goodness in all people regardless of their religion and I read horrifying things in some of the ahadith about Islam. So I could imagine a God being clear and making it clear that if you follow good, you will be rewarded, if you follow bad, you will be punished. But I don't see this in Islam. In theory it is presented as the most logical religion, but in practice when you look at the details, I find things like when I don't respond to my husbands call when he calls me to his bed, the angels will curse me all night. For a man to do the same is not considered sin. These things are really there, I did not invent them, they are in the original sources of Islam (sahih bukhari). I find this sounds more like the wishful thinking of some males then the word of God. So I must assume that if I do not do as my husband commands me, I will be sent to hell?
I still haven't found my way, by the way... I guess I will be doubting all my life.
Well, I am sorry to say that it did not help me much. As I continue to read about Islam more into the details, there are some parts about it that I find absolutely horrifying. I guess the only thing that would make me believe in any religion would be to see the living example of goodness and really making the world a better place, as opposed to darkness of non-religious people. But so far, I see goodness in all people regardless of their religion and I read horrifying things in some of the ahadith about Islam. So I could imagine a God being clear and making it clear that if you follow good, you will be rewarded, if you follow bad, you will be punished. But I don't see this in Islam. In theory it is presented as the most logical religion, but in practice when you look at the details, I find things like when I don't respond to my husbands call when he calls me to his bed, the angels will curse me all night. For a man to do the same is not considered sin. These things are really there, I did not invent them, they are in the original sources of Islam (sahih bukhari). I find this sounds more like the wishful thinking of some males then the word of God. So I must assume that if I do not do as my husband commands me, I will be sent to hell?
I still haven't found my way, by the way... I guess I will be doubting all my life.
shawn
Well-Known Member
At least you are thinking Reema.
Keep at it and things will clear up eventually.
Seek and you will find.
But nobody said it would happen right away.
Keep at it and things will clear up eventually.
Seek and you will find.
But nobody said it would happen right away.
Marsh
Disagreeable By Nature
That "eventually" may take an entire lifetime, but if it does, I'd say it was a lifetime well spent.
Nice post, Shawn.
Well nonetheless Sister, i'll keep praying for you inshAllah
And regarding the hadith which says that if the woman dont respond to the call of the man for sexual relations, then the angels will curse her...; I gave an explanation of that in context to the recent Afghanistan issue regarding it; inshALlah in that you will be able to make sense of it; here it is:
Basically, in Islam, a woman should not refuse sex to her husband unreasonably, for sex is a verry important part of marriage; it keeps both husband and wife safe from adultery or masturbation and if the woman unreasonably refuses, this could be a means to the husband falling into any one of the two aforementioned sins.
Since the mans role in Islam is to generally be the breadwinner for the family, thus the women in general are dependent on their husbands [i.e, the husband supports them from his means], it is only natural that the wife's disposition to be inclined towards obeying the husband [as long as his requests do not involve commting sins and they are reasonable...] and particular emphasis has been put on not refusing the husbands request for sex for the aforementioned reasons
Here are some relevent hadiths:
Hadith - Sahih Al-Bukhari 7.123, Narrated Abu Huraira
Allah's Apostle said, "It is not lawful for a lady to fast (Nawafil) without the permission of her husband when he is at home; and she should not allow anyone to enter his house except with his permission; and if she spends of his wealth (on charitable purposes) without being ordered by him, he will get half of the reward."
[I think the reason why the wife is not allowed to keep optional [not the obligatory one's] fasts without the husbands permission is for the reason that the husband may want sex with her during the day, or at least the husband should give his permission, so that he could get ready to control his desires for the day [if he comes across a provacatively dressed woman etc]
Hadith - Bukhari 4:460, narrated Abu Huraira
Allah's Apostle said, "If a husband calls his wife to his bed (i.e. to have sexual relation) and she refuses and causes him to sleep in anger, the angels will curse her till morning."
[note that the above hadith says 'and causes him to sleep in anger'; this could denote that the mans urges were verry strong, or otherwise would he sleep in anger?; thus in that state, the man could easily at least fall into the heinous sin of mastarbation, so this is possibly why the angels curse the wife]
Hadith - Al-Tirmidhi 3257, narrated Talq ibn Ali
Allah's Messenger said, "When a man calls his wife to satisfy his desire she must go to him even if she is occupied at the oven."
[I think the above hadith may emphasise the dangers of falling into mortal sin if the husband cannot fullfill his sexual desire in a lawfull way]
Jabir heard Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) say: When a woman fascinates any one of you and she captivates his heart, he should go to his wife and have an intercourse with her, for it would repel what he feels. [Muslim]
Jabir reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) saw a woman, and so he came to his wife, Zainab, as she was tanning a leather and had sexual intercourse with her. He then went to his Companions and told them: The woman advances and retires in the shape of a devil, so when one of you sees a woman, he should come to his wife, for that will repel what he feels in his heart. [Muslim]
[the first hadith of the last two is self explanatory and the latter hadith refers to immodest/provocatively dressed women? when it says that they they advance in the shape of a devil; I think it may mean by that that they are like temptresses. These two hadiths show how sexual desire should be taken care of in lawfull ways, now if the wife refuses the lawfull way unreasonably, then wouldn't that put the men at risk of falling into sin? ...]
However, if a wife does refuse sex, then the man should be patient and not get angry with the wife; tollerance, compassion, forgiveness and overlooking any improper acts are stressed in Islam and there are great virtues in them; my wife has refused me countless times [I'm a bit too greedy in that area you see ]but that dont diminish our love or harmony between us...
hope this helps
Peace
bananabrain
awkward squadnik
or, alternatively, he could actually try and control himself. what a pathetic line of argument and how sexist - and insulting to men.abdullah said:
"ah, hell. where satan belches fire and enormous devils break wind both night and day. where your mind is never free from the torments of remorse - and your bottom never free from the prickings of little forks!"
"noooo... spare me the little forks!"
"yes, hell, where the softest parts of your nether regions are everybody else's favourite lunch."
anyone, source of the quote?
b'shalom
bananabrain