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Does evil exist?
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sunofmysoul
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Netti-Netti
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I think one way to approach the subject of evil is to look at how religions respond to it. Obviously, salvation wouldn't be necessary if evil does not exist.
As I understand it, suffering is a starting point for the Buddhist idea of salvation. For the sake of discussion, I'm prepared, to say that suffering is not the "real evil." Rather, it is the fact that everything is temporary and that we can't keep up with it that causes suffering. I suppose it depends on how you look at it, but someone could reasonably argue that the basic transitory state of things is evil.
shawn
Well-Known Member
But that is relative to the position of the one passing such judgement.
If the suffering causes good, such as steel being tempered (metaphor) in a blast furnace....not too pleasant for the steel, yet the end result is transformation to a higher state, then one's description of the condition would change depending on their position, either in the furnace, or out the other side of the process.
That is, if one believes there is a point to the wheel of suffering.
Saltmeister
The Dangerous Dinner
Politics often has a part to play in that.
George W. Bush said that the rest of the world didn't get it on his War on Terror.
Hitler possibly thought the rest of the world was evil. How dare anyone attack Germany?
How dare anyone attack America?
How dare anyone attack Muslims?
How dare anyone make anti-Semitic comments?
How dare anyone say the Trinity isn't essential?
How dare anyone say Christianity isn't the truth?
How dare anyone say women can abort babies?
How dare homosexuals get married?
How dare anyone not believe in heaven, hell or an afterlife?
How dare you knock on my door and try to tell me what to think and believe?
How dare you claim there is evil?
How dare you disagree with me, argue with me, disparage my views and opinions?
So who is the evil in all those questions?
Vajradhara
One of Many
Namaste Netti-Netti,
thank you for the post.
it is clear that a great many beings share this view it is not one, however, which finds any resonance with me.
we do?
generally speaking my encountering of terms like "evil" and "good" withing the context of the Suttas is when they are transliterated for beings that do not read Sanskrit and, probably more importantly, have a vastly different philosophical paradigm in which they view the world.
not to put too fine a point on it but could we not demonstrate compassion towards the being that prevented the initial demonstration of compassion and thus still have a compassionate action? Uppaya.
i'm not sure in which religious context you are speaking that doesn't seem to follow. salvation can be salvation from something other than evil... say a beings own mistakes or faults during their arising, for instance.
adopting a world view in which the terms "evil" and "good" are paired as opposites necessitates a belief in those ideas, they co-arise within the paradigm that espouses them.
the idea of salvation is misplaced in the Buddhist context unless you are strictly confining it to mean through ones own efforts one effects ones Awakening and Liberation... but if that is your meaning it seems that using those terms would be more apropos.
it does, indeed, all reside in a beings perspective
metta,
~v
thank you for the post.
it is clear that a great many beings share this view it is not one, however, which finds any resonance with me.
we do?
generally speaking my encountering of terms like "evil" and "good" withing the context of the Suttas is when they are transliterated for beings that do not read Sanskrit and, probably more importantly, have a vastly different philosophical paradigm in which they view the world.
not to put too fine a point on it but could we not demonstrate compassion towards the being that prevented the initial demonstration of compassion and thus still have a compassionate action? Uppaya.
i'm not sure in which religious context you are speaking that doesn't seem to follow. salvation can be salvation from something other than evil... say a beings own mistakes or faults during their arising, for instance.
adopting a world view in which the terms "evil" and "good" are paired as opposites necessitates a belief in those ideas, they co-arise within the paradigm that espouses them.
the idea of salvation is misplaced in the Buddhist context unless you are strictly confining it to mean through ones own efforts one effects ones Awakening and Liberation... but if that is your meaning it seems that using those terms would be more apropos.
it does, indeed, all reside in a beings perspective
metta,
~v
Vajradhara
One of Many
Namaste sunofmysoul,
thank you for the post.
that's pretty funny
i wouldn't be keen to jumble up the idea of "bad" with the idea of "evil". it's bad when it rains on my dress on my way to a dinner party but it certainly cannot be construed as evil. i would strongly like to stay away from the idea of "bad" during this conversation if we can manage
that said... i have done that very thing... well.. at least as some sort of intersubjective reality which all beings experience. i certainly agree that the idea of determining some actions/events/emotions et. al. "evil" exists within the consciousness of beings. yet i do not see it existing in any other manner.
whilst certainly terrible and a horror which i would not wish any to experience i cannot find the element in this which would lead to a conclusion of evil.
it would seem that your understanding of evil is quite expansive. lest anyone misunderstand, that i do not consider something evil does not mean that such actions are skillful or will produce benefit for any being... in fact many of the things you list here are significantly unskillful for producing benefit for a being.
that is a potentially dangerous ideology that you have adopted; when the idea of what constitutes "evil" is dependent upon ones world view it does not take too much to twist such ideology into something which is anathema, to wit the terrible tragedy of militant Islam.
in the context of a dialog such as this some operational definitions are often helpful since you and i may, in fact, have very different ideas as to what the terms "good" and "evil" actually mean... and i apologize for not asking for this clarification up front... i suppose you could do so if you choose but at this level it may not be necessary
metta,
~v
thank you for the post.
i am reminded of an interchange in Kung Fu Panda....
"Shifu: Master! I have... it's very bad news!
Oogway: Ah, Shifu. There is just news. There is no good or bad.
Shifu: Master, your vision. Your vision was right! Tai-Lung has broken out of prison! He's on his way!
[pause]
Oogway: That *is* bad news.
that's pretty funny
i wouldn't be keen to jumble up the idea of "bad" with the idea of "evil". it's bad when it rains on my dress on my way to a dinner party but it certainly cannot be construed as evil. i would strongly like to stay away from the idea of "bad" during this conversation if we can manage
that said... i have done that very thing... well.. at least as some sort of intersubjective reality which all beings experience. i certainly agree that the idea of determining some actions/events/emotions et. al. "evil" exists within the consciousness of beings. yet i do not see it existing in any other manner.
whilst certainly terrible and a horror which i would not wish any to experience i cannot find the element in this which would lead to a conclusion of evil.
it would seem that your understanding of evil is quite expansive. lest anyone misunderstand, that i do not consider something evil does not mean that such actions are skillful or will produce benefit for any being... in fact many of the things you list here are significantly unskillful for producing benefit for a being.
that is a potentially dangerous ideology that you have adopted; when the idea of what constitutes "evil" is dependent upon ones world view it does not take too much to twist such ideology into something which is anathema, to wit the terrible tragedy of militant Islam.
in the context of a dialog such as this some operational definitions are often helpful since you and i may, in fact, have very different ideas as to what the terms "good" and "evil" actually mean... and i apologize for not asking for this clarification up front... i suppose you could do so if you choose but at this level it may not be necessary
metta,
~v
Vajradhara
One of Many
Namaste wil,
thank you for the post.
in the context of this discussion can i interpret this statement to mean that if you didn't resist evil it would no longer persist? (however you define evil).
moreover, do you mean this as a statement of intersubjective reality or on a moral/ethical plane?
metta,
~v
thank you for the post.
in the context of this discussion can i interpret this statement to mean that if you didn't resist evil it would no longer persist? (however you define evil).
moreover, do you mean this as a statement of intersubjective reality or on a moral/ethical plane?
metta,
~v
sunofmysoul
Member
Namaste Vahradhara
i thank you for your response.
perhaps it would be important to define, good, bad, evil (or rather my limited understanding this point of it...that's pretty funny
i wouldn't be keen to jumble up the idea of "bad" with the idea of "evil". it's bad when it rains on my dress on my way to a dinner party but it certainly cannot be construed as evil. i would strongly like to stay away from the idea of "bad" during this conversation if we can manage
that said... i have done that very thing... well.. at least as some sort of intersubjective reality which all beings experience. i certainly agree that the idea of determining some actions/events/emotions et. al. "evil" exists within the consciousness of beings. yet i do not see it existing in any other manner.
whilst certainly terrible and a horror which i would not wish any to experience i cannot find the element in this which would lead to a conclusion of evil.
it would seem that your understanding of evil is quite expansive. lest anyone misunderstand, that i do not consider something evil does not mean that such actions are skillful or will produce benefit for any being... in fact many of the things you list here are significantly unskillful for producing benefit for a being.
::: background info::not where i am now, but the mindset i am coming OUT of...)
a was born and raised evangelical christian, with the belief that God is good all the time, God is love, all that He does and is, is good and love.
The devil on the other hand, is God's enemy, and tries with all his might to wage war against God and His creation, (garden of eden snake was devil in disguise etc) this would mean that when we see what i would call pure adulterated evil, someone willing to hurt another to benefit themselves, or just for sheer fun or what not, they have given themselves over to the dark side etc)
***where i am now***
I believe it rains upon the just and the unjust, bad and good happen to everyone. I believe bad and good can be used in our lives, equally.
I believe in the end the only thing we have control over is our response.
Our own actions.
I believe EVIL, is more of a choice.
and while the woman watching her child starve to death unable to make any more milk, is suffering "badness" if we have the ability to stop it, and do nothing I believe we have crossed the line of evil.
I believe harming another with no benefit is crossing the line of evil.
for instance, disciplining a child, while to the child it may seem evil or bad at the time, if it is done with self control with purpose, it is actually for the childs benefit.
however, a man who becomes drunk and beats up his child (breaking bones and what not) for "imagined wrongs" the child has done, has crossed the line to evil. (imho)
ah, i understand your concern here. right now, i am struggling with
Christians fighting to say that we were founded on Christian principles,
we need to get "back" to that, (America) and i look at the Manifest Destiny, and pray instead we learn from such "evil". and our quest to rid them of their "heathen culture" Amnesty Magazine
and pray instead we learn from such "evil"
I hope i have explained it better. Please understand that I am on a journey myself, and a quest to learn, so your thoughts are greatly appreciated.in the context of a dialog such as this some operational definitions are often helpful since you and i may, in fact, have very different ideas as to what the terms "good" and "evil" actually mean... and i apologize for not asking for this clarification up front... i suppose you could do so if you choose but at this level it may not be necessary
metta,
~v
with love,
soms
Netti-Netti
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You mean some people are not subject to the transitoriness of it all?
Please see my response to Shawn's post above.it does, indeed, all reside in a being's perspective
I don't know if either one of you wants to argue that a universality (change in the phenomenal realm) is just a subjective impression. But if you do, I'd like to hear the argument.
shawn
Well-Known Member
I mean that when a person has died and looks back upon their lives (if such a thing is the way it will be), then they may look at all the crap they went through, all the suffering arising from transitory reality, in a different light, meaning that they will appreciate what they hated while they lived as then they see that it was necessary.You mean some people are not subject to the transitoriness of it all?Originally Posted by shawn
But that is relative to the position of the one passing such judgement.
If the suffering causes good, such as steel being tempered (metaphor) in a blast furnace....not too pleasant for the steel, yet the end result is transformation to a higher state, then one's description of the condition would change depending on their position, either in the furnace, or out the other side of the process.
That is, if one believes there is a point to the wheel of suffering.
I don't know if either one of you wants to argue that a universality (change in the phenomenal realm) is just a subjective impression. But if you do, I'd like to hear the argument.
I have seen this to be true even in my less than a 1/2 century of present life in that there were circumstances that I went through which I didn't like at all while I was experiencing them, yet in retrospect, I can see that I have developed good qualities as a result, or IMO I have become a better, more fully rounded person as a result of them.
I do agree with your idea that the nature of time creates the transitory nature of reality which gives rise to suffering. That is quite plain.
Netti-Netti
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Perhaps as a source of insight? I sometimes feel that suffering is irrelevant or unnecessary or that is serves no purpose, just part of a chaotic universe.
I think it was an incomplete thought on my part. When confronted with things we experience as aversive, things may not be temporary enough!
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
Greed, hate, and delusion exists.
The Undecided
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One could argue that evil exists because good exists, when we create something as a concept we automatically create its opposite. As living beings, animals included, it could be said that we create evil by perceiving it as a possibility, and as a consequence we create suffering. The world is what we perceive it to be, and as a result we continue to create this perception because it is how we see the world, and how we expect the world to be. So one could say that suffering exists because we each create it by our actions, dictated by our perception of the world, and how we perceive that we are treated by others. This is the centre of the problem, we each have a different perception of the world, and yet we all usually want to belong to a group of people who believe that they have figured it all out. Also, once we believe that we know the ‘truth’ about the world then we assume automatically that those who disagree with this ‘truth’ have got it wrong, or their view is incorrect. We are back to creating evil by creating good again. Perhaps this is how we define our worlds, by differentiating between the world and ourselves, as well as other people and ourselves. In essence we define our world by defining ourselves first, which we do by deciding how we differ from others, and how we are the same. This then becomes a useful framework for us to make sense of the world.
But there is still the problem of the existence of suffering, as a result of what we perceive as evil deeds. One could argue that a need for justice to punish evil deeds is needed. As a model for society this can work, we can not let crimes go unpunished, yet there is still an expectation that evil is going to happen and always will. Punishing after the fact will not stop it happening. So, perhaps a wiser approach to education would work better, if so then how do we implement this on a global scale? Because anything less will not work. If only a selection of people adopted a wiser education plan then there is the risk of them believing that they are right and the rest are wrong, they are good and others are evil, or at best ignorant. We would not be resolving the issue at all.
If evil, and therefore suffering, is of our own collective creation, through our perception or expectation of it, then the only way to remove evil from our lives is for all of us to realise that this is the case and for our actions towards others to be in their interest and not in our own, in short for us all to be selfless. Some would argue that this is impossible, and to a certain degree I accept this, as this transformation would involve every human being always being good to others, and forgetting how others have hurt them in the past. We can rarely forget or forgive a wrong that has hurt us deeply, or a horrible act such as genocide. Evil actions are quite solid in their consequences and their significance. Perhaps this is the problem.
So the answer to your question I guess would be yes, but only because we perceive it that way. If we change our perception of the world we change the world, from our own side at least.
nativeastral
fluffy future
great post undecided and welcome, its very relevant to the home defence thread in the politics forum concerning the penal system/society and sentiments we could all agree on over there.
Namaste and welcome undecided and dittogreat post undecided and welcome, its very relevant to the home defence thread in the politics forum concerning the penal system/society and sentiments we could all agree on over there.
Perception is a mighty diviider...
An example of what I call evil (will post it in white so those who have compassionate leanings won't lose their breakfasts/lunches/dinners/whatever):
A female who moved out of an apartment in New York City, returned, trashed the place, took a little kitten that lived with the former roommate, threw the kitten into the oven, closed the door, cranked it to the highest setting, then left so she wouldn't have to hear the kitten's cries or scratching the oven door to be let out. She killed the kitten because "I hate cats". The necropsy (an autopsy for non-human beings) was the only way they could identify anything about the victim, including gender.
The perp was sentenced to only a year, although she has shown sociopathic tendencies (long, violent criminal record, including mugging a woman for her Boston Terrier.)
The incident I posted in white happened around June 6th of this year.
Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine
A female who moved out of an apartment in New York City, returned, trashed the place, took a little kitten that lived with the former roommate, threw the kitten into the oven, closed the door, cranked it to the highest setting, then left so she wouldn't have to hear the kitten's cries or scratching the oven door to be let out. She killed the kitten because "I hate cats". The necropsy (an autopsy for non-human beings) was the only way they could identify anything about the victim, including gender.
The perp was sentenced to only a year, although she has shown sociopathic tendencies (long, violent criminal record, including mugging a woman for her Boston Terrier.)
The incident I posted in white happened around June 6th of this year.
Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine
The Undecided
Well-Known Member
Some peoples capacity for evil is quite shocking. Our brains are such complicated things that I wonder sometimes if this isn't just faulty wiring, the severity of some evil acts coming from our exceptional ability to conceive of any action and then to carry it out.
The Undecided
Well-Known Member
great post undecided and welcome, its very relevant to the home defence thread in the politics forum concerning the penal system/society and sentiments we could all agree on over there.
Thanks, I'm new to giving my opinion on a forum. Though it is nice to have a place to discuss things that matter rather than X Factor or Big Brother.
17th Angel
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Just curious, who decides what matters and what does not...?