Can I go to heaven without my spouse ?

[soleil10]

As a Buddhist, I believe that any separation between my wife and myself (or anybody else for that matter) is due to our bodies, senses and thoughts reinforcing the notion of separation. One one hand it is a very real separation, but it is only part of the picture and a very temporary perspective. When we die and lose the mechanism by which this separation is created we return to "oneness".

I have heard of this concept in Buddhism.

I do not believe that marriage is eternal. Marriage is an invention of our biology and culture and ends, at best, with death. In your view, if a man—totally committed, in a loving marriage—becomes a widower and then enters a second totally committed and loving marriage, who does he spend eternity with?

In my view a man who is married does not enter in a second marriage.
Since we are spiritual beings first, his spouse physical body has died but her spiritual body is very much alive. She is right there with him.

One other aspect that doesn't feel right to me is this idea that the rules keep changing by which your God judges people.

The rules have not changed. God's will and purpose for his creation have always been the same. We are the ones going back to our original ancestors who have not play by the rules of our own free will. It has been a long road back home.

The Buddha lived 600 years before Jesus, and the Dharma has been the same before he was born, while he lived, and in the thousands of years since his death. A caveman could have experienced enlightenment (and probably did) and some future being, living 10,000 years from now, could too (and will) using similar practices as the Buddha. All of these changing conditions that your God requires for salvation, paints Him as inconstant.

Once again the conditions have never changed and the purpose has always been the same but humanity have created many delays.

I'm not trying to derail a Christian thread. I'm merely trying to compare and contrast our perspectives. I do appreciate learning about the different ways that people interpret—what I believe is—the most important aspect of our existence.

It is very fine, I do myself enjoy study about other religions from those who practice them and find the similarities or differences.

I found out that people who are truly believers in their own religion get along very well with others. Their love for God and their fellow men transcend their differences.

 

[shawn]

This is all nice to have all kinds of diverse beliefs, but really, any idea of being separate from God or others is merely a byproduct of being an individual.
It is all illusion.
There is really no separation.
So to be all worried about what one has to do to achieve what you already have is extremely unproductive.

 

[soleil10]

This is all nice to have all kinds of diverse beliefs, but really, any idea of being separate from God or others is merely a byproduct of being an individual.
It is all illusion.There is really no separation.
So to be all worried about what one has to do to achieve what you already have is extremely unproductive.

Shawn, do you feel one with God ? and if you do can you share how is it so ?

 

[shawn]

Spirituality is not a feeling, it is a knowing.
So many people are trying so very hard to catch some kind of spiritual feeling, when it is not a sensation or emotionalism.
Spirituality, is a realization.

I knew one person years ago, who would smoke ganja and then say that they felt "so spiritual" when they were buzzed.
This was amusing.
Hedonistic elation/elevation can be life enhancing and perspective expanding, but it is inappropriate to label it as "spiritual".

People are already "spiritual", (we are all born that way) but we tend to exclusively focus on just the "immediate" due to our survival instincts.
This is why I have said that the only thing we need to be saved from is our ignorance.
People tend to be very ignorant of what they are and what our full potential really is.

You become aware of what you focus on.
So if you choose to be caught up with the myriad of distractions which the media and culture throws at you, then chances are that is going to limit what you are aware of.
There is a lot to be said for getting out into nature and focussing on what is real....it can be life changing.

 

[iBrian]

Brian, answering that question a certain way brings a thousand more questions.

I am not sure if I should answer it. It would be like telling you the ending of a movie before you went to the theater.

It is an extremely serious question too that I cannot really answer casually

A simple "yes" or "no" will usually suffice - you've already stated that you're part of the Unification Church, one of its precepts is that the Reverend Moon is the Second Coming of Jesus.

The bizarre part of someone like myself is how you have a belief system supposed based on Christianity - and yet seems to refute normal Christian beliefs in order to focus on a set of principles based on marriage as fundamental to faith, which does not normally feature in Christian theology (in the way being used).

And, of course, like lots of modern religious leaders, the Reverent Moon lives a lifestyle of abject luxury - which seems a far cry from a radical Rabbi who trained as a carpenter.

Simply observing.

 

[soleil10]

the bizarre part of someone like myself is how you have a belief system supposed based on Christianity - and yet seems to refute normal Christian beliefs in order to focus on a set of principles based on marriage as fundamental to faith, which does not normally feature in Christian theology (in the way being used).

Brian, can you explain further what you mean ?

And, of course, like lots of modern religious leaders, the Reverent Moon lives a lifestyle of abject luxury - which seems a far cry from a radical Rabbi who trained as a carpenter.Simply observing.

I do not think that someone who has been thrown 6 times in prison, including almost tree years in a North Korean prison camp has lived a lifestyle in abject luxury.
I do no think that someone who is working in a public way tirelessy and sleeping only 2 or 3 hours a day even now that he is over 90 years old lives such a lifestyle of abject luxury.
Do you think that if people, starting from his own family had realized who Jesus really was the Messiah, he would have had to struggle in such a miserable way all his life.

We should not celebrate the fact that Jesus did not get the support structure that God had prepared for him.

As far as I witnessed, Rev Moon has not kept anything for himself. What the media reports is not what I saw. Give and forget he has given is pretty much his lifestyle

I myself could not keep up with him more than 48 hours.

 

[citizenzen]

I myself could not keep up with him more than 48 hours.

I'm not sure whether that speaks well of him, or poorly of you.

Maybe you should exercise more.

 

[path_of_one]

So if you need to be married to get into Heaven, but you can get married after death in the spirit world, what is the incentive to marry now? We can just wait until after we die.

Also, what is the spirit world as opposed to heaven? You can get married there- what else? Have kids? Work? Is it pretty much like here except full of dead people?

There's a lot of contradictions in this line of thinking that I'm trying to work out.

For the record, I think salvation has nothing whatsoever to do with marriage or gender. I wouldn't say that spirituality has nothing to do with sexuality, but neither would I say that it has much to do with cultural norms concerning gender, marriage, or family.

 

[soleil10]

So if you need to be married to get into Heaven, but you can get married after death in the spirit world, what is the incentive to marry now? We can just wait until after we die.
Also, what is the spirit world as opposed to heaven? You can get married there- what else? Have kids? Work? Is it pretty much like here except full of dead people?There's a lot of contradictions in this line of thinking that I'm trying to work out.

We will enter heaven as a couple if we qualify
You cannothave children in the spirit world since you do not have a physical body.

 

[path_of_one]

So, say someone dies as a 2-year-old child. And they qualify (how do they qualify- just curious?). But obviously the kid didn't marry before s/he died.

So then that person gets hooked up with a holy match-maker right before they enter the pearly gates? In the spirit world?

The gates of Heaven are beginning to look like a combination of eHarmony and Vegas to me in this model...

 

[shawn]

if we qualify

So it is an olympic event then?

 

[citizenzen]

You cannot have children in the spirit world since you do not have a physical body.

I managed to successfully avoid having children in the physical world. It's comforting to know that I'll avoid them in the spiritual world as well.

 

[iBrian]

Brian, can you explain further what you mean ?

I mean that the focus on marriage that the Unification Church focuses on seems absent in normal Christian theology.

I do not think that someone who has been thrown 6 times in prison, including almost tree years in a North Korean prison camp has lived a lifestyle in abject luxury.

That was in the 1940's - seems he's doing rather better now, though:

Sun Myung Moon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Home for the True Family was a guarded 18-acre (73,000 m2) mini-castle in Irvington, New York, a tiny suburb located along a sweep of the Hudson River. Named East Garden, after Eden, the estate included two smaller houses and a three-story brick mansion with 12 bedrooms, seven baths, a bowling alley, and a dining room equipped with a waterfall and pond. There were other castles and mansions too — in South Korea, Germany, Scotland, England — and few expenses were spared. The children had tutors from Japan, purebred horses, motorbikes, sports cars, and first-class vacations with blank-check spending. "The kids got whatever they wanted," says Donna Collins, who grew up in the church. "At one point, the Moon kids were each getting $40,000 or $50,000 a month for allowance. They had wads of cash. I remember once in London where [one of Justin’s sisters] spent like $2,000 a day; I saw a drawer filled with Rolexes and diamonds."[71]

I appreciate that someone may wish to look after his family, but there seems nothing in the Gospels that suggest Jesus was travelling around, looking for a wife, and ready to set up a Holy Family to rule over earth to live in luxury like kings.

Presuming so would be to go against all existing Christian theology - which seems a strange position for a group claiming to source their beliefs from Christianity.

 

[Dondi]

II appreciate that someone may wish to look after his family, but there seems nothing in the Gospels that suggest Jesus was travelling around, looking for a wife, and ready to set up a Holy Family to rule over earth to live in luxury like kings.

Presuming so would be to go against all existing Christian theology - which seems a strange position for a group claiming to source their beliefs from Christianity.

Seems there are a few evangelical Christian 'leaders' who share similiar aspirations.

 

[shawn]

A smart con artist can sniff out a good racket. And there are always a ready supply of naive, gullible people who want desperately to believe the poop that these characters shovel out.
Anyway, it looks like the Jesus moon has competition from this guy:
Pastor with 666 tattoo claims to be divine - CNN.com

 

[wil]

I managed to successfully avoid having children in the physical world. It's comforting to know that I'll avoid them in the spiritual world as well.

I had the joy of spending the weekend in below freezing weather with my son and his scout friends. I wouldn't have been there if it hadn't been for him. And then when we returned home my 16 year old daughter had to sit in my lap and tell me of her adventures for the weekend.

Prior to my mid thrities I also avoided...now I couldn't imagine it without them.

You, having a level head on your shoulders and compassion in your heart should consider mentoring some youth to get a piece of that joy, and pass on some of yours.

 

[Saltmeister]

I had the joy of spending the weekend in below freezing weather with my son and his scout friends. I wouldn't have been there if it hadn't been for him. And then when we returned home my 16 year old daughter had to sit in my lap and tell me of her adventures for the weekend.

Prior to my mid thrities I also avoided...now I couldn't imagine it without them.

You, having a level head on your shoulders and compassion in your heart should consider mentoring some youth to get a piece of that joy, and pass on some of yours.

At this stage in my life . . . I'd hate having kids. But what a relief, I'm nowhere near having any. I'm nowhere near marriage. I won't comment further on my marital status.

I'm still a selfish selfish narcissistic man. I'm not sure when I'll stop being one, but that's what I am for now.

Changing nappies and worrying about children making a "potty mess" . . . I want none of that. I used to defaecate on the carpet from time to time when I was a little kid. I don't know why. I guess when people want you to be a civilised human being you feel like experimenting with what it means to not be one. Knowing how much of a nuisance I was, I don't want to have to face the same experience. I think sometimes I actually did it to get attention and see how my parents would react. Of course I grew out of that eventually, but it's one of the things I know I am going to have to tolerate if I became a parent. I think even one year of that would drive me nuts. I'd get compulsive hand washing disorder. What I already have is bad enough already.

But even if it's not the disgusting, revolting excrement, you never know how dirty kids can be. They can be very irresponsible with hygiene. They can be very good carriers of germs. Sure, I was a kid once, had to deal with patronising and condescending parents, but now that I'm in my mid 20s, I can be nasty to them.

So of course, I can sympathise with citizenzen. I'm probably even more cynical.

 

[shawn]

Yes, that all does sound selfish and narcisstic.
But, whatever.

We had children early in life, unplanned, but received with joy.
Nothing will force you to grow up and mature quicker than children.
(not that all parents respond to that, but for those that actually care....)
I see that it is better to have them when one is young as when you are still reasonably young and they are coming of age, you still have some things in common and you can keep up with them and enjoy that phase as well.
I feel sympathy for those selfish ones who will wait until they are 30 to 40 something to have kids as then they will be too old to enjoy all the phases of that experience.
Plus your reproductive quality goes down as you get older. You may still be fertile and capable, but the optimum time is when your genetic code is strongest, that way you pass on good genes and not faulty ones.
Anyway I have hijacked this thread enough.

 

[Dream]

Have some sympathy people! The Unificationist Church is not completely unrelated to the idea of interfaith. The stated goals of the Unificationists are world peace and interfaith, and if you go to their website they address each major world religion as being legitimate. Their strategy is to upheld marriage as the most important thing, since all the worlds major religions have it in common. I'm not sure, but I think Baha'is have a similar approach, and they've got their own section on the forum. I don't hear everybody whaling on them!

A major diff between Unificationist Church and Interfaith movement, is that Unificationists feel that further revelation as necessary for interfaith respectfulness. That they embrace Rev. Moon as that revelation is their prerogative, just like Baha'i all embrace Bahá'u'lláh as a prophet.

 

[soleil10]

I mean that the focus on marriage that the Unification Church focuses on seems absent in normal Christian theology.

This is one of the MAIN problems with Christian thought and confusion about marriage. . the "no marriage in heaven" idea. It is very strong. . .it is the basis for the wedding pledge "until death do us part". . ..from the perspective of Christian thought. . .marriage is for earthly reasons only. . .Jesus did not marry. . .Protestants don't consider it a sacrament. . .in heaven we will be "single" like the angels. This is why Christian values are on the wane. . .We are incorrect at the most important level. . .the family!. . "Jesus gave more on the cross. . .he sacrificed his marriage and family for us. . . .This is the mission he laid down in Gethsemane, with tears,. . .THE FAMILY, not just the individual need to conquers death. . and endures in heaven. . .and, in fact, becomes the foundation of the culture of heaven. . the Kingdom of Heaven. . on earth AND IN HEAVEN!!

That was in the 1940's - seems he's doing rather better now, though:

Brian you are off by 44 years.
YouTube - Father

I appreciate that someone may wish to look after his family, but there seems nothing in the Gospels that suggest Jesus was travelling around, looking for a wife, and ready to set up a Holy Family to rule over earth to live in luxury like kings.

Obviously, people of Jesus's time did not understand his mission. We saw how Jesus ended as a criminal on the cross. Jesus was not walking around looking to be crucified. He claimed the Kingdom of God is ant hand for the first 2 years of his ministy. Then he changed direction toward the cross to the great surprise of his own disciples.

Presuming so would be to go against all existing Christian theology - which seems a strange position for a group claiming to source their beliefs from Christianity.

Jesus was accused of the same thing. His message claimed to source itself from the old testament.