Burn the Qu'ran day?

[c0de]

They sure don't seem to mind the handouts, or the disaster assistance, or food giveaways, or military aid and support, or financial assistance, or medical assistance, or technology, or ...

Yes, the world would be so much better off without America,

But you are correct...Americans *do* have an attitude of superiority about them, an attitude that is an obstacle to actually communicating with other cultures on an elemental level.

It certainly doesn't help when other cultures have similar attitudes, and then arm their own kooks with automatic weapons.

Gee, could it be that the world continuing to run to the USA for handouts, disaster assistance, food giveaways, military aid and support, financial assistance, etc. might have something to do with that?

No one, not even your greatest critics can refute your generosity. Which is why when attrocities like 9/11 happen, even the world capitol of the "axis of evil" (Tehran) holds mass vigils to mourn American victims. The problem with you yanks is that you always manage to erode any and all sympathy you accumulate with your own actions. Launching hopeless "crusades" all over the world and spiels like "with us or against us/silence=complicity" are responsible for your image. Change that, and you will see how fast your image improves.

Also remember that traditionally, the Muslims (for example) always saw the US in a better light when compared to Europeans and even the Soviets (who supplied Egypt and Syria with weapons, but at the end of the day, were communists.) Think about this: even today, the most lunatic fringe groups like Al-Qaida see the US as a secondary threat. For them, the US is just a puppet of Israel (lol) who is making the US do all the evil things. So even they don't have a completely negative image of the US.

 

[NiceCupOfTea]

Should we ask Muslims if they are barbarians?

Seems to me they believe themselves to be *very* civilized.

I just think it is time they step up and act like it for a change.

Peace with Israel would be a nice start.

maybe Muslims are barbarians which is why Islam is so legalistic because the people born into it are basically savages ?

on the other hand i think that if we in the west lived like much of Islamic world in poverty would we be any better ?

actually i think no we would not be any better.

and why is much of the Muslim world in so much poverty ? surely all that oil wealth could make the Islamic world into an earthly paradise ?

 

[Janz]

Put your Western Liberal Democracy Constitutional Republican minds around the recent events in Turkey. Excellent article in the Atlantic!!

When Islamism Is Liberal-Democratic - Max Fisher - International - The Atlantic


"Turkey's step away from secular rule comes in the form of Constitutional reforms that promote, more than anything else, liberal-democratic values. That's not a coincidence. Islamic rule and liberal democracy, far from mutually exclusive in the Middle East, can go hand-in-hand.

Though we in the West typically focus on the militant extremists, they are merely the fringe of political Islam. Middle Eastern Islamic political movements are, more than anything else, populist. They represent the interests of the working class, oppose authoritarian rule by elites, tend to be a bit nationalistic, and are in general not so different from the populist movements of the U.S. and elsewhere. As Turkey's Constitutional referendum demonstrates, they're also quite good at bolstering democratic institutions. These reforms will bar gender discrimination, improve privacy and civil liberty protections, reduce the special legal protections afforded to elites, and overhaul the judiciary. These changes will roll back much of the military rule that, though decidedly non-democratic, has made Turkey so reliably secular. "

Every American Muslim that I have known and talked with has said that American Constitutional Law is very congruent with Islam's values. So then what do some Americans fear? Is this fear based upon the thought that they may have to add to their "Judeo-Christian" values talk the word Muslim? Again Islam is very much like Christianity where converts are necessary for growth and of course after that, comes the encouragement to have large families.

I am not saying this is a bad thing or wrong but just an observation..I believe in freedom of choice and have studied many religions. I think we all need freedom to worship or not worship our Gods. Most of the rabble rousing and fear mongering against American Muslims comes from Conservative Christians and yet from a social standpoint, Muslims are just as conservative as Christians. In fact, I imagine that there would be agreement on many social issues that are near and dear to Conservative American Christians. Oh the irony of it all.

 

[juantoo3]

Awesome contribution Janz! Thank you!

Put your Western Liberal Democracy Constitutional Republican minds around the recent events in Turkey. Excellent article in the Atlantic!!

When Islamism Is Liberal-Democratic - Max Fisher - International - The Atlantic


"Turkey's step away from secular rule comes in the form of Constitutional reforms that promote, more than anything else, liberal-democratic values. That's not a coincidence. Islamic rule and liberal democracy, far from mutually exclusive in the Middle East, can go hand-in-hand.

Though we in the West typically focus on the militant extremists, they are merely the fringe of political Islam. Middle Eastern Islamic political movements are, more than anything else, populist. They represent the interests of the working class, oppose authoritarian rule by elites, tend to be a bit nationalistic, and are in general not so different from the populist movements of the U.S. and elsewhere. As Turkey's Constitutional referendum demonstrates, they're also quite good at bolstering democratic institutions. These reforms will bar gender discrimination, improve privacy and civil liberty protections, reduce the special legal protections afforded to elites, and overhaul the judiciary. These changes will roll back much of the military rule that, though decidedly non-democratic, has made Turkey so reliably secular. "

OK...now just thinking in print here...is Turkey maybe a *special case?* I mean Turkey has been aligned reasonably close to the west ever since the end of WWI and the end of the Ottomans, so isn't the case of Turkey of the last hundred years not exactly normative with remainder of the Muslim world?

Every American Muslim that I have known and talked with has said that American Constitutional Law is very congruent with Islam's values. So then what do some Americans fear? Is this fear based upon the thought that they may have to add to their "Judeo-Christian" values talk the word Muslim? Again Islam is very much like Christianity where converts are necessary for growth and of course after that, comes the encouragement to have large families.

I can't speak for every American, but I do know that when I see some of the stories of intolerance with extreme prejudice by the State with the blessing of the Mosque in Sharia nations, it does give me great pause.

I am not saying this is a bad thing or wrong but just an observation..I believe in freedom of choice and have studied many religions. I think we all need freedom to worship or not worship our Gods. Most of the rabble rousing and fear mongering against American Muslims comes from Conservative Christians and yet from a social standpoint, Muslims are just as conservative as Christians. In fact, I imagine that there would be agreement on many social issues that are near and dear to Conservative American Christians. Oh the irony of it all.

LOL, yes, I believe I see what you are saying.

 

[juantoo3]

Perhaps...but one day you and I shall dance THE MAMUSHKA!

Ah! Death by a thousand cuts!

I'll even let you lead!

Careful though...I've got two left feet...

 

[juantoo3]

(well, at least this time you managed to control yourself
enough to not abuse your moderating privilleges and
attempt to lock the thread, like last time. I'd say you're
making progress. Good for you.)

Is that what this is all about? OMG, I had forgotten all about that.

You have a wonderful memory, I sincerely hope you use it for more than just carrying a grudge.

I had a bad day, *one* bad day, and for that you wish to torpedo a chance to build a dialogue?

This thread isn't about me and never was, the only thing I am is the facilitator to get people on both sides talking. My morals are no better than yours.

So I tell you what...if you think you can do better...take over this discussion. Be a real Muslim Man and step up, build a bridge instead of tearing things down, prove to all of the ones here saying that Muslims are barbarians that they are wrong...not just tell them, SHOW them.

You are now the proud father of a chance to build a dialogue...are you going to nurture it, or are you going to let it die the death of apathy and petit misgivings like all of the discussions before? It's your call now, prove you can do it better than me.

 

[juantoo3]

The problem with you yanks is that you always manage to erode any and all sympathy you accumulate with your own actions. Launching hopeless "crusades" all over the world and spiels like "with us or against us/silence=complicity" are responsible for your image. Change that, and you will see how fast your image improves.

I don't think it is quite that "simple," but for the sake of discussion how would we go about doing what you suggest?

 

[c0de]

Is that what this is all about? OMG, I had forgotten all about that.

You think if it wasn't for that, I wouldn't have said anything on this thread? lolz

This thread isn't about me and never was, the only thing I am is the facilitator to get people on both sides talking. My morals are no better than yours.

So I tell you what...if you think you can do better...take over this discussion. Be a real Muslim Man and step up, build a bridge instead of tearing things down, prove to all of the ones here saying that Muslims are barbarians that they are wrong...not just tell them, SHOW them.

You are now the proud father of a chance to build a dialogue...are you going to nurture it, or are you going to let it die the death of apathy and petit misgivings like all of the discussions before? It's your call now, prove you can do it better than me.

If you had started this discussion like this, instead of making far-flung attacks and rhetoric, things would've ended up better.

My purpose here was only to correct.

I don't think it is quite that "simple," but for the sake of discussion how would we go about doing what you suggest?

You mean how would you go about not making speeches of "with us or against us"? Simple: don't make them.

As for launching crusades, that's your policy. You can try to change (I dont think you will) but don't blame the world for your image.

 

[c0de]

p.s.

You are now the proud father of a chance to build a dialogue...

Been there, done that.

In fact, one of the threads on which I have discussed
the issue which relates to much of the foundation for
radicalism in Islam is even showing up on the list of
"similar threads" right below.

 

[juantoo3]

p.s.


Been there, done that.

Good! Then you are a proud papa again!

In fact, one of the threads on which I have discussed
the issue which relates to much of the foundation for
radicalism in Islam is even showing up on the list of
"similar threads" right below.

Good! This is a chance to reiterate and place that material into context and dialogue.

 

[juantoo3]

If you had started this discussion like this, instead of making far-flung attacks and rhetoric, things would've ended up better.

I didn't start the thread, I only saw and still see an opportunity to seize a teaching moment.

And I explained my methods and motivations, perhaps not clearly, but I did. People drop in a see another "boring" conversation where everybody is all lovey dovey and everybody dances carefully around the hot button issues and we end up like every other conversation before, dying the death of apathy. I'm tired of it. We, both sides, NEED to start talking substance.

My purpose here was only to correct.

Like I said, if you can do better, go for it.

You mean how would you go about not making speeches of "with us or against us"? Simple: don't make them.

As for launching crusades, that's your policy. You can try to change (I dont think you will) but don't blame the world for your image.

One thing I have learned from Islam sure strikes me similar..."the enemy of my enemy is my friend." Doesn't sound much different to me than "with us or against us," except in application. I still refute the "with us or against us" bit, there is the chance you see something I don't. I know my comment about "silence is tacit agreement" was certainly not meant in that context.

You are right, I can't blame anybody for how they see me.

 

[shawn]

Found this:
Saudis Shred Bibles

Bibles found in the possession of visitors to Saudi Arabia are routinely confiscated by customs officials, and in some cases copies allegedly have been put through a paper shredder

Saudis Shred Bibles, Rights Campaigners Claim,

Abuse of Christians and their symbols was not restricted to the destruction of Bibles, he added.

A friend of his, a fellow Christian in Saudi Arabia, told him of witnessing a particularly unpleasant incident involving a Catholic nun.

The man had been in the transit lounge at the airport in Jeddah - the gateway to Mecca, used by millions of Hajj pilgrims each year - when a nun arrived at the customs desk.

"Some fool [travel agent] had put her on a transit flight in Jeddah. You don't do that to a Catholic nun, because she's going to be tormented."

"They opened her bag, went through her prayer book, put the prayer book through the shredder ... took the crucifix off her neck and smashed it, tormented her for many minutes."

Eventually another Muslim official objected to their conduct, came across and "rescued" her, pointing out to the customs officials that she was not entering the country but only in transit and would be leaving on the next plane.

Interesting: Saudi Arabia will shred your bible if you attempt to bring it into their country. And, in some cases, apparently if you're carrying a large number of bibles you can be put to death.
This is a strict Islamic country...so...it should be a nation of complete and total utopian peace...right?

 

[juantoo3]

the most lunatic fringe groups like Al-Qaida see the US as a secondary threat. For them, the US is just a puppet of Israel (lol) who is making the US do all the evil things.

Why is that? What is it about the mere mention of the name Ysrael that sets Muslims off? Why are Muslims so set against these people even living?

 

[juantoo3]

Saudi Arabia will shred your bible if you attempt to bring it into their country. And, in some cases, apparently if you're carrying a large number of bibles you can be put to death.
This is a strict Islamic country...so...it should be a nation of complete and total utopian peace...right?

I haven't been to Saudi, but I have spoken to many people who have gone there for a time to work. *All* of them spoke of being confined to their compound when not working, they were never allowed to sight-see or tour the country. The compound had stores, movie theatres, bowling alleys, a lot of stuff to keep the caged birds happy...but they were still caged birds.

Separate but equal comes to mind...and we've already seen how that works out. That is the only way a Christian can live in Saudi, is if they are confined to one of these compounds. Even then it is not encouraged to be a Christian openly or to wear Christian symbols...those alone are enough cause for expulsion. People go there for the money, which is considerable, but the trade off in human dignity is really questionable.

 

[c0de]

One thing I have learned from Islam sure strikes me similar..."the enemy of my enemy is my friend."

Strikes me as Machiavellian, and a basic position of advantage that every political actor applies. Consider the position of France. It has allied from pretty much everyone in its history when it has suited its interest, and it was right to do so. The US today does the same thing.

Why is that? What is it about the mere mention of the name Ysrael that sets Muslims off?

It doesn't. Consider the case of Egypt and Jordan who have no interest in seeing Israel destroyed. In fact, for them, the mere mention of the letters "PLO" brings fear and hatred.

Israel is not a threat to Muslims, as it is incapable of expansion. Muslims are not a threat to Israel as historically, Israel has always defended successfully against regional threats (it comes down to geography). The issue is the interest of greater powers outside the region, for whom this area has always been strategic.

I haven't been to Saudi, but I have spoken to many people who have gone there for a time to work. *All* of them spoke of being confined to their compound when not working.... The compound had stores, movie theatres, bowling alleys, a lot of stuff to keep the caged birds happy...but they were still caged birds.

This is also true of Saudi Women, who are half of Saudi society. The problems there apply equally to Muslims and non-Muslims. In fact, compare the condition of Westerners in Saudi Arabia to labor workers (who in many cases are Muslim) from South Asia.

Like I said, if you can do better, go for it.

I have no aspirations to be a leader of the thread like you, but here's some food for thought: consider the affect of America's political structure on its foreign policy. In the US, it is next to impossible for a president to unilaterally change the domestic dynamics of the country. But it is much easier to launch a war on an outsider.

 

[shawn]

The same measure should be applied across the board.
If saudi's want to confiscate all religious artifacts that are different from theirs at their border, then they should have no complaints when the same is done to them when they go to those other countries.
Shred their korans at the border as well.
At the very least, seize them and then return them after they leave.
Just to be fair about it after all.

They play nazi's in their country but whine and snivel when they don't have people bend to their every wish in other countries they travel to.
What a joke.
Just who do they think they are.....freaking SPECIAL or something?
Better than others perhaps?

"**Oh yes, we of the superior religion we look down upon you infidel dogs and will terrorize you as we are commanded to and we will seek to overturn your laws and replace them with ours, because...they are just so much better"

This is crazy.

 

[Janz]

Shawn, you do know that Saudi Arabia is the home of Wahhabism, a very very strict fundamentalism that teaches only Wahhabis are the Chosen of Allah. Most of the 9-11 terrorists were from Saudi Arabia as well as Osama bin Laden. Wahhabi extremism and radical ideas of purity have obviously influenced Al Qaeda. Adherents of Wahhabi Islam do not regard it as simply one school of thought out of many; rather it is the only path of true Islam — nothing else counts.

I don't think that we can blame the rest of Islam for their intolerant behavior. Christianity has their fundamentalists as well that would love the USA to be a Christian Theocracy. Tea-Baggers come to mine..In fact, I am more worried about them than I am Muslims as far as being a threat to the freedoms of my country.

I do not understand why we consider them to be our allies...

Here is an interesting link about Saudi Arabia and the threat of Wahhabism:
PBS - frontline: saudi time bomb?: analyses: wahhabism

 

[Diagoras]

Shawn, you do know that Saudi Arabia is the home of Wahhabism, a very very strict fundamentalism that teaches only Wahhabis are the Chosen of Allah. Most of the 9-11 terrorists were from Saudi Arabia as well as Osama bin Laden. Wahhabi extremism and radical ideas of purity have obviously influenced Al Qaeda. Adherents of Wahhabi Islam do not regard it as simply one school of thought out of many; rather it is the only path of true Islam — nothing else counts.

I don't think that we can blame the rest of Islam for their intolerant behavior. Christianity has their fundamentalists as well that would love the USA to be a Christian Theocracy. Tea-Baggers come to mine..In fact, I am more worried about them than I am Muslims as far as being a threat to the freedoms of my country.

I do not understand why we consider them to be our allies...

You need two sides to fight a war... a war that takes $trillions to fund in arms and logistical support and supplied by companies who's major shareholders are..... to name but two the Bush and Aziz. Yes the war on terror is just an elaborate con.

 

[shawn]

You need two sides to fight a war... a war that takes $trillions to fund in arms and logistical support and supplied by companies who's major shareholders are..... to name but two the Bush and Aziz. Yes the war on terror is just an elaborate con.

Yes, someone else who has eyes in their head.

 

[Dogbrain]

The same measure should be applied across the board.
If saudi's want to confiscate all religious artifacts that are different from theirs at their border, then they should have no complaints when the same is done to them when they go to those other countries.

Doubleplusungood!!!!

We all know that Muslims have SPECIAL RIGHTS that nobody else on earth may aspire to! Report to your reeducation center for incineration, immediately.