Assignment: "Freewill" (Pro/Con)

[Gatekeeper]

Hi Snoopy —

Yes, absolutely. Neither sin nor evil can exist as a concept without it.


I would say that the fact that God knows what a person will do does not mean God wills the action. The person is free to act, or not to act, and whichever course the person follows, God knows the outcome.

Consider: A person decides two courses of action by the toss of a coin. Does God determine which way the coin will fall? No. But God does know the outcome of either course of action.

If we factor multiple universes into the equation, then we have God who knows the outcome of every act and every possible act ...

God bless,

Thomas

Sin is a misguided act made by imperfect man (Sin is to miss the mark). To me evil is more akin to calamity, which we as imperfect beings tend to create for ourselves because of our imperfections.

"I believe that everything is connected, thus the first cause of life dictated the course the rest of existence would take. Like a ripple caused by a drop in a pond, the first cause of life extends far into the future x infinity, creating a ripple effect that the rest of existence is ultimately subject to."

We are free to choose anything we want, so in this aspect we are free, but we are not free from the effects of the ripple and it is the ripple that ultimately shapes our desires. Just my view, feel free to disagree as the others have.

GK

 

[Snoopy]

Yes, absolutely. Neither sin nor evil can exist as a concept without it.

God bless,

Thomas

Hi Thomas,

Thank you.

Yes, I agree absolutely with this; I can't see how they otherwise could.

s.

 

[Gatekeeper]

Hi Thomas,

Thank you.

Yes, I agree absolutely with this; I can't see how they otherwise could.

s.

What is sin, and what is evil, snoopy? Maybe these are just words to describe our imperfections and what our imperfections cause? Being imperfect, our desires are often times misguided, whereby they are in conflict to God's perfection, which ultimately causes the suffering we cause in life.

Satan means adversary, right? The imperfection of man is an adversary to the perfection of God, but it is in our imperfections that we (Humanity) have the greatest potential to learn, grow, and further develop as individuals and as a collective body. I think once we line up our desires with God, we will slowly be made perfect in love.

 

[Snoopy]

I would say that the fact that God knows what a person will do does not mean God wills the action.

But if God know what I am going to do, I do not see in what sense that I have free will?

The person is free to act, or not to act, and whichever course the person follows, God knows the outcome.

This is compounding the issue for me! I have free will, but then God knows what I’m going to do anyway, as well as the outcome of my “choice”!?

Consider: A person decides two courses of action by the toss of a coin. Does God determine which way the coin will fall? No.

OK.

But God does know the outcome of either course of action.

As you’ve said.

Consider: A powerful computer can, er, compute the outcomes of a myriad potential combinations of criteria can it not? (A simple coin toss outcome just being a very basic starting point). However, the existence and ability of this computer has no bearing on the issue of whether or not humans have free will surely? (I’m not saying God is a computer, I’m just using the analogy, based upon your point).

If we factor multiple universes into the equation, then we have God who knows the outcome of every act and every possible act ...

Convince me on this universe Thomas, then we can talk about the other ones!

Over to you…

s.

 

[Snoopy]

What is sin, and what is evil, snoopy? Maybe these are just words to describe our imperfections and what our imperfections cause? Being imperfect, our desires are often times misguided, whereby they are in conflict to God's perfection, which ultimately causes the suffering we cause in life.

Yes, words can only be defined with more words, that is why reality cannot be described in words. Sin seems to be defined as a transgression of law, specifically divine: “the sin of Adam.” Evil seems to have generally less religious overtones, simply relating to a quality of “bad”.

Satan means adversary, right?

Yes, from the Hebrew.

The imperfection of man is an adversary to the perfection of God,

Is Man a satan to the perfection of God?

but it is in our imperfections that we (Humanity) have the greatest potential to learn, grow, and further develop as individuals and as a collective body. I think once we line up our desires with God, we will slowly be made perfect in love.

I think that we have to realise what we already are and to learn, grow and develop as individuals and as a collective. There is nothing to perfect, in my understanding. And yes, love is already perfect.

But my free will is taking us away from your assignment!

s.

 

[Gatekeeper]

Yes, words can only be defined with more words, that is why reality cannot be described in words. Sin seems to be defined as a transgression of law, specifically divine: “the sin of Adam.” Evil seems to have generally less religious overtones, simply relating to a quality of “bad”.

What law? The law (Imo) can summed up in one word (Love). To miss THAT mark is to "sin".

Is Man a satan to the perfection of God?

That is my implication.

I think that we have to realise what we already are and to learn, grow and develop as individuals and as a collective. There is nothing to perfect, in my understanding. And yes, love is already perfect.

So we are being made perfect by that which is already perfect, then? I think love completes us as human beings (Children of God). In love and through love we are being made perfect or rather "complete".

But my free will is taking us away from your assignment!

Hehehe, but this IS the assignment! The assignment has less to do with freewill and more to do with critical thinking and logic, even when it comes to religious issues/terms such as sin and evil, so I think the "assignment" is right on track.

We're never going to agree on whether our will is truly free, but this thread does help us think, or rather that IS the intention of the assignment itself; to engage and think about our positions in a critical manner. I myself believe that we are free to do what we want. My entire argument against freewill is based on the premise that we (Our wants) are driven by circumstance and/or life itself.


GK

 

[seattlegal]

Yes, words can only be defined with more words, that is why reality cannot be described in words. Sin seems to be defined as a transgression of law, specifically divine: “the sin of Adam.” Evil seems to have generally less religious overtones, simply relating to a quality of “bad”.

Yes, from the Hebrew.


Is Man a satan to the perfection of God?

Luke 11

1 Now it came to pass, as He was praying in a certain place, when He ceased, that one of His disciples said to Him, “Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples.”
2 So He said to them, “When you pray, say:

Our Father in heaven,[a]
Hallowed be Your name.
Your kingdom come.[b]
Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.
3 Give us day by day our daily bread.
4 And forgive us our sins,
For we also forgive everyone who is indebted to us.
And do not lead us into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one.” [c]

5 And He said to them, “Which of you shall have a friend, and go to him at midnight and say to him, ‘Friend, lend me three loaves; 6 for a friend of mine has come to me on his journey, and I have nothing to set before him’; 7 and he will answer from within and say, ‘Do not trouble me; the door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed; I cannot rise and give to you’? 8 I say to you, though he will not rise and give to him because he is his friend, yet because of his persistence he will rise and give him as many as he needs.

9 “So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 10 For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. 11 If a son asks for bread[d] from any father among you, will he give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent instead of a fish? 12 Or if he asks for an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? 13 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!”​

James 1

12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.​

Looks like we need help to work on transforming our demons.

I think that we have to realise what we already are and to learn, grow and develop as individuals and as a collective. There is nothing to perfect, in my understanding.

And yes, love is already perfect.

Ahh, the pesky no-self!

But my free will is taking us away from your assignment!

s.

 

[Snoopy]

What law?

Sin | Define Sin at Dictionary.com

taken from this defintion of sin.

s.

 

[Snoopy]

So we are being made perfect by that which is already perfect, then?

No; we are perfect. Love is also perfect.

Our lives need to be a realisation and ongoing work in that perfection.

I reckon

s.

 

[Snoopy]

We're never going to agree on whether our will is truly free, but this thread does help us think, or rather that IS the intention of the assignment itself; to engage and think about our positions in a critical manner. I myself believe that we are free to do what we want. My entire argument against freewill is based on the premise that we (Our wants) are driven by circumstance and/or life itself.

I disagree, I think we do agree

It seems to me that we have free will moment by moment but are constrained by a myriad of factors beyond our will, whatever our will may be at that time.

s.

 

[Snoopy]

Looks like we need help to work on transforming our demons.

Yes, get thee behind me, Mara.

s.

 

[Thomas]

Hi Gatekeeper —

What is sin, and what is evil, snoopy?

The definitions within the Christian traditions are very clear, they are not imperfections. To be a 'sin' (subjective) or evil (objective) requires the knowing assent of the will — it's a freely-taken choice to do that which one knows is morally wrong.

It is axiomatic of both sin and evil that someone always suffers, directly or otherwise, as a result of the action, and that this infliction of suffering is intentional.

Maybe these are just words to describe our imperfections and what our imperfections cause? Being imperfect, our desires are often times misguided, whereby they are in conflict to God's perfection, which ultimately causes the suffering we cause in life.

There is a difference between sin and evil, and imperfection and misguided actions. We might indeed act contrary to the divine will, but that does not necessarily render the act a sin, or evil ... just misguided.

The question of suffering, when we discuss sin and evil, introduces the 'grey area' of human experience.

Was the tsunami in Japan evil? No, although it is the cause of tremendous suffering. Likewise, is it that those who suffer do so in proportion to their sin? Again, no.

Religion has moved away from the idea of God as micromanager, making every decision in the cosmos ... rather the world is finite, contingent, and therefore imperfect.

Satan means adversary, right? The imperfection of man is an adversary to the perfection of God, but it is in our imperfections that we (Humanity) have the greatest potential to learn, grow, and further develop as individuals and as a collective body.

D'you think so? I'm not so sure. I wonder why it seems axiomatic that we have to start with a negative to appreciate a positive? I think our potential to be is the greatest spur to our development, our idea, or ideal, of perfection, rather than our experience of the imperfect ... if 'better than imperfect' was the yardstick, i don't think we would have achieved nearly as much as we have done.

I think once we line up our desires with God, we will slowly be made perfect in love.

True humility, and true wonder, will do it.

God bless,

Thomas

 

[Gatekeeper]

Sin | Define Sin at Dictionary.com

taken from this defintion of sin.

s.

Sin is an archers term that literally means to "Miss the mark". The Greek term is "hamartia":

1a) to be without a share in
1b) to miss the mark
1c) to err, be mistaken
1d) to miss or wander from the path of uprightness and honour,to do or go wrong
1e) to wander from the law of God, violate God’s law, sin

Using the dictionary's definition, I suppose the question would be, "What is that divine law"?

"For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself."


GK

 

[seattlegal]

Yes, get thee behind me, Mara.

s.

Yep. Hence the Christian practice of renunciation and forgiveness.

 

[seattlegal]

Sin is an archers term that literally means to "Miss the mark". The Greek term is "hamartia":

1a) to be without a share in
1b) to miss the mark
1c) to err, be mistaken
1d) to miss or wander from the path of uprightness and honour,to do or go wrong
1e) to wander from the law of God, violate God’s law, sin

Using the dictionary's definition, I suppose the question would be, "What is that divine law"?

"For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself."


GK

Yep. And we are free to resist the Holy Spirit and wander away from that law. (Acts 7:51)

 

[wil]

Yep. And we are free to resist the Holy Spirit and wander away from that law. (Acts 7:51)

Yes that is one that I am coming to grips with....

namaste....the light in me salutes, honors and respects the light in you...

when I can't see the light in others....I am aware the light in me can...

But I can't because I have lost my awareness (resisted and wandered away) to my spark of divinity within.

So yet again, it is not the 'other' that is lacking....but me.

 

[Gatekeeper]

Hi Gatekeeper —

The definitions within the Christian traditions are very clear, they are not imperfections. To be a 'sin' (subjective) or evil (objective) requires the knowing assent of the will — it's a freely-taken choice to do that which one knows is morally wrong.

Sin is an archers term that literally means to "Miss the mark", but you already know this. The Greek term is "hamartia":

1a) to be without a share in
1b) to miss the mark
1c) to err, be mistaken
1d) to miss or wander from the path of uprightness and honour,to do or go wrong
1e) to wander from the law of God, violate God’s law, sin

Free choice and willful choice are two different birds, and as seattlegal pointed out, " each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death."

It is axiomatic of both sin and evil that someone always suffers, directly or otherwise, as a result of the action, and that this infliction of suffering is intentional.

Are you suggesting that we cannot sin "unintentionally"? We sin (Miss the mark) because we are imperfect, and those sins cause evil (Calamity). Intentional infliction of harm would be an intentional sin, but wouldn't that still be a result our imperfect (Natural selves)? We are misguided in judgment, thus we sin often. It is only when we submit to Gods love that we are able to "Center the target", or rather meet the mark God has set for us, no?

There is a difference between sin and evil, and imperfection and misguided actions. We might indeed act contrary to the divine will, but that does not necessarily render the act a sin, or evil ... just misguided.

What IS the divine will?

The question of suffering, when we discuss sin and evil, introduces the 'grey area' of human experience.

Was the tsunami in Japan evil? No, although it is the cause of tremendous suffering. Likewise, is it that those who suffer do so in proportion to their sin? Again, no.

It was a calamity -- I think moral evil is a subjective thing , and that moral evils boil down to anti social behavior, which is why it is so important to submit to God's divine will, which I believe is Love.

Religion has moved away from the idea of God as micromanager, making every decision in the cosmos ... rather the world is finite, contingent, and therefore imperfect.

I think existence is perfect, meaning complete, but our world and our natural selves are incomplete. God's love completes us, just as it will complete (Perfect) our world, but that's just my personal view.

D'you think so? I'm not so sure. I wonder why it seems axiomatic that we have to start with a negative to appreciate a positive? I think our potential to be is the greatest spur to our development, our idea, or ideal, of perfection, rather than our experience of the imperfect ... if 'better than imperfect' was the yardstick, i don't think we would have achieved nearly as much as we have done.

I agree, Thomas See Here

True humility, and true wonder, will do it.

God bless,

Thomas

God bless,


GK

 

[Gatekeeper]

Yep. And we are free to resist the Holy Spirit and wander away from that law. (Acts 7:51)

Yes, you are free to do what you want.

 

[Gatekeeper]

No; we are perfect. Love is also perfect.

Our lives need to be a realisation and ongoing work in that perfection.

I reckon

s.

I disagree, if we were truly perfect, then would the world be in the shape it is in now? I think we are loved perfectly (Impartially) by God but our actions are far from being perfect. This is because we are ourselves imperfect beings, not yet made complete (Perfect) in love.



GK

 

[Snoopy]

GK,

Perfect as in a no thing unity. The world, including us, is exactly as the world is. To compare it or us, unfavourably to some other imaginary "ideal" is delusion; something which at worst, is dangerous. So OK, I'll let you disagree!

s.