Assignment: "Freewill" (Pro/Con)

GK,

Perfect as in a no thing unity. The world, including us, is exactly as the world is. To compare it or us, unfavourably to some other imaginary "ideal" is delusion; something which at worst, is dangerous. So OK, I'll let you disagree!

s.

If we are not striving to become, then what are we to strive for? Perfect is a concept, but a desire to become more perfect than what we are, the desire to overcome our shortcoming, etc. helps us grow, and learn from our misguided deeds, and further develop as a collective body, no?

We are what we are, but perfect we are not -- Not that we will ever reach absolute perfection (If there is such a thing), but we can strive to "become" better, more loving, and more compassionate people. Surely you are not suggesting that such a desire is delusional and dangerous?

On one hand you say we are perfect, then on the other you say that perfect is a no thing and that the ideal is a delusion. We CAN become more perfect, better, and more compassionate, but if we think that we already are, then what progress can be made by us?


GK
 
GK,

Perfect as in a no thing unity. The world, including us, is exactly as the world is. To compare it or us, unfavourably to some other imaginary "ideal" is delusion; something which at worst, is dangerous. So OK, I'll let you disagree!

s.
OK, then it comes down to choosing wholesome actions over unwholesome actions then? {"whole" pun intended!}
 
But if God know what I am going to do, I do not see in what sense that I have free will?
Because you chose to do it ... God didn't choose you to do it, or choose it to be done by you.

This is compounding the issue for me! I have free will, but then God knows what I’m going to do anyway, as well as the outcome of my “choice”!?
Well take it up a bit ... God created the Cosmos, and in so doing determined all that was possible within it. Now, whatever you might choose to do, nothing you can choose will lie outside the created possibility of the Cosmos ... so it's not a case of God having to know your every thought and action from one nanosecond to the next, it's rather the case of God knows what is possible and what isn't.

Or look at it this way: anything you do, and anything you can do, is already written in your human nature — there's nothing you can do that adds to human nature, and there's no skill that man's developed that wasn't already there ... the ability to ride a bicycle was established, as a law, in the very first instant of the big bang, along with every other law ...

So if you understood human nature well enough, you would be able to predict, with staggering accuracy, what anybody would do in any given situation.

And if you were conscious of all time at once, then you would know.

Consider: A powerful computer can, er, compute the outcomes of a myriad potential combinations of criteria can it not? (A simple coin toss outcome just being a very basic starting point). However, the existence and ability of this computer has no bearing on the issue of whether or not humans have free will surely? (I’m not saying God is a computer, I’m just using the analogy, based upon your point).
That's my point, because the computer can predict, does that mean we do not have free will?

Some might say no, else the computer would not be able to predict, but that assumes an infinite number of possibilities. There are not an infinite number of solutions to every opportunity ... and, the less mindful we are, the more likely we are to make more predictable choices.

God bless,

Thomas
 
GK,

I appreciate your confusion and perhaps consternation. I have spent a long time drinking tea and it is hard to share if you already have a mug full of coffee. Can the poetic assist where logic struggles? - see the fan anecdote of Master Baoche...

s.
 
If we are not striving to become, then what are we to strive for? Perfect is a concept, but a desire to become more perfect than what we are, the desire to overcome our shortcoming, etc. helps us grow, and learn from our misguided deeds, and further develop as a collective body, no?

We are what we are, but perfect we are not -- Not that we will ever reach absolute perfection (If there is such a thing), but we can strive to "become" better, more loving, and more compassionate people. Surely you are not suggesting that such a desire is delusional and dangerous?

On one hand you say we are perfect, then on the other you say that perfect is a no thing and that the ideal is a delusion. We CAN become more perfect, better, and more compassionate, but if we think that we already are, then what progress can be made by us?


GK

GK,

I appreciate your confusion and perhaps consternation. I have spent a long time drinking tea and it is hard to share if you already have a mug full of coffee. Can the poetic assist where logic struggles? - see the fan anecdote of Master Baoche...

s.
Sometimes you have to quit striving, and just be, or do something spontaneous. If you are always striving, and not observing, then you are sure to miss your mark when it comes. ;)
 
Sometimes you have to quit striving, and just be, or do something spontaneous. If you are always striving, and not observing, then you are sure to miss your mark when it comes. ;)

Live, Love, and Laugh! You'll get no argument from me when it comes to spontaneity, and just being, seattelgal. Even so, I do desire love -- To be loved and to love others. It is a basic need after all, just as it is pleasant to the soul. ;)
 
GK,

I appreciate your confusion and perhaps consternation. I have spent a long time drinking tea and it is hard to share if you already have a mug full of coffee. Can the poetic assist where logic struggles? - see the fan anecdote of Master Baoche...

s.

Poetics are great, but when they are paradoxical in nature, I have to question the logic. Perfect is a no thing, yet we are perfect as we are? Does that make us nothing, then? My view of perfect is humanity being complete or made whole in love, or is love a no thing, too?

:eek:


GK


[youtube]Kc8hzb0daK8[/youtube]​
 
Just some additional thoughts

God exists but I don't think he rejects or accepts us because of our chosen religion's or lack of religion, but because we fail to honor the path of life. By neglecting love, we in effect neglect him and we do so much to the detriment to our world. Some 2000 years ago a man named Jesus inspired humanity to seek the kingdom. He taught us what it would take to achieve paradise on earth.

His sacrifice solidified his passion, and it is because of his sacrifice that many of us have come to realize the importance of his vision. He was willing to die teaching us how to bring the kingdom to fruition. He assured us of an abundant life if we would only walk the same path he followed. Indeed, we are living in a potential paradise … One that is up to mankind to realize as a collective body.


  • I believe that Jesus showed mankind what it would take to realize paradise. He taught us to love one another, and to serve the needs of our fellow man. He taught us to become good stewards, and caretakers.


  • I believe it is up to us (mankind) to usher in this new world. Jesus being one who not only labored for this end, but who also gave his life in hope that we might realize his vision of a better world.


  • I believe that Jesus ultimately represents mankind. The difference between Jesus and many of us is in how he chose to live, and what he chose to honor.


  • I believe that Jesus was the way, the truth, and the life. Not him alone, but rather every man and woman who would follow the “path of life”.


  • I believe that love is the path of life.


  • I believe that love is something each individual must discover and experience for themselves, and as each person grows in love, the more they will be able to live through this life giving spirit.


  • I believe paradise can be achieved by following this path of life, allowing love to be our guiding light, and by serving the needs of our fellow man.


  • I believe that it is absolutely imperative that we labor for the kingdom in the here and now, that it is time for humanity to realize our responsibility to future generations and to do all we can to create paradise on earth.


GK
 
Poetics are great, but when they are paradoxical in nature, I have to question the logic. Perfect is a no thing, yet we are perfect as we are? Does that make us nothing, then? My view of perfect is humanity being complete or made whole in love, or is love a no thing, too?

:eek:


GK


[youtube]Kc8hzb0daK8[/youtube]​

Logic is not to explain the poetic; the poetic was offered as an alternative perspective. However, I think I am only further muddying your waters GK so perhaps you should just ignore me :eek: :)

s.
 
The purpose of this thread (In part) is to have a civil and amicable discussion on the often emotionally charged topic of "freewill". I ask that before you make your case "Pro" or "Con" to please do the following.


  1. View issue from both angles
  2. Identify potential problems
  3. Separate fact from opinion
  4. Analyze information gathered
  5. Choose your side
  6. Restrain emotions
  7. Proceed with your case (Pro or Con)
Sounds like fun, right? :p Here's the catch, no outside sources are to be utilized for making your case. The entire discussion must be based entirely on our own personal convictions. I'll make my case first to get us started. Those of you participating should follow up with your own point of view (Pro or Con) but in response to my initial posting on the issue as follows:



Stance: "Con" (Free will does not exist)


“Freewill is essentially defined as being able to make choices not determined by prior causes, or is the ability to make a choice free of external and/or other physical forces.”


One thing I think we can agree on is that we are ultimately driven by our desires. I submit that we will always, no matter what, choose that which we desire most. I suggest that our every choice is determined by what we desire, as well as by our life circumstance and it is because of this that I feel free will choice does not truly exist.


Although we make choices daily I believe these choices are far from being “free”. Before we are able to choose, we must first have a desire for something. The truth of the matter is that desire will always be present before we make a conscious choice/decision.


Many variables play a role in what we desire in life, such as where we were raised, how we were raised, what we have experienced, and our current life situation. All these variables play a role in who we are and the decisions we make.


We like to think that we choose freely, but the choices we make are dependent upon both internal and external factors (Past and present) so when we make a choice we are simply acting and reacting to life according to our strongest desires and in a manner that we feel is best for us in any given situation.



To give a "revised" analogy:


Imagine that you are on a ship and that you are the Captain of that ship. Life itself is the force moving the ship forward. It pushes the ship, giving it momentum, but you are guiding the ship yourself. You are at the helm navigating your way around the ocean, but many things play a part in your decision making.


Just like a change of wind direction would motivate you to re-arrange the sails, or the light of a lighthouse would motivate you to change direction to prevent you from hitting the rock strewn shore.


You navigate the ship the best you know how, only you do so in accordance to your circumstances, in accordance to each obstacle you face as you move forward. You ultimately guide the ship, but it is life circumstance that causes you to make the changes in navigation.”



Life circumstance determines what we desire most, and it is our desires that drive our decisions. No matter what we choose, it is because we desire 'something'. Free will is having the ability to act voluntarily in any given situation, BUT [if] we are driven by our desires, then we are not actually acting voluntarily, but rather we are acting the only way we are able, predetermined by our strongest desire at that particular moment.




By the way, this is also (In part) a project for school. We are to attempt to resolve a conflict using critical analysis, objectivity, logic, and factual information. Whether or not we agree in the end is of little concern. The meat of the assignment is getting me to actually think critically.

I used the issue of free will because I am familiar with both sides of the argument (At least a little) being that I once believed in freewill, and did my best to hold on to that belief. Now I'm on the other side of the fence doing my best to convey my understanding of the concept as I see it today.


Thanks for your help,


GK
Resume the position of the Captain of a ship. You are tired, and want to go home. You have been at sea for months (as has been your crew). You get a teletype "proceed to blankety blank degrees and blankety blank degrees, and stand by"...

YOU CAN DENY the ORDERS, as the CAPTAIN of the BOAT. That is YOUR RIGHT as CAPTAIN.

Is there a price to pay? Most certainly. Do you still have the right? Most certainly.

So what is the question here? Do we have "Free will" here, or do we have a will that is payed for with a price?

Answer: All decisions are paid for with a price. That is what being free is all about...willing to pay the price...

There is no other way around it.

Q
 
Re: Just some additional thoughts

I believe that Jesus showed mankind what it would take to realize paradise.
In the absence of freewill, I am not sure what is the point. Either you are predestined to follow the path, or you are predestined not to; you have no choice about it, so what is the point in "showing" anything?
The difference between Jesus and many of us is in how he chose to live, and what he chose to honor.
Did he have some freedom to choose?
 
Sin is an archers term that literally means to "Miss the mark", but you already know this. The Greek term is "hamartia":

1a) to be without a share in
1b) to miss the mark
1c) to err, be mistaken
1d) to miss or wander from the path of uprightness and honour,to do or go wrong
1e) to wander from the law of God, violate God’s law, sin
Quite, but in Scripture harmartia is meant in the sense of 1d and 1e above.

Harmartia in the philosophical sense is generally attributed to Aristotle, in Poetics. Scholars still argue its meaning, as 'missing', as 'error' or as 'offence'.

Free choice and willful choice are two different birds...
OK, but the issue is responsibility. To make a wilful choice, one must be free, must one not? Another question, whether one acts wilfully, or without thinking, doesn't really alter the matter. Either way, one is responsible for one's actions.

If one is coerced, one can act against one's will, and not be held responsible for one's actions.

Are you suggesting that we cannot sin "unintentionally"?
Technically, yes ... but 'I didn't mean it' doesn't always cut the mustard, as they say. Ignorance of the law is no defence in law. But there is a distinction between sin as an act which knowingly harms another, and sin as an act with unforseen consequences. Often people don't consider the consequences (or avoid that issue) so it's a huge 'grey area' ...

... 'grey area' is utterly the wrong term. It's the area of human relations, there's nothing grey about it at all, it's most colourful, it's where all the colour is ... we'll have to think of a better term. Perhaps, 'it's a rainbow of consequences'?

In Scripture God laments the unintentional sin, it's the intentional ones that really annoy Him.

We sin (Miss the mark) because we are imperfect, and those sins cause evil (Calamity).
No, or rather yes, but that's the mild stuff. That's nothing.
The other sin is the knowing that my actions will inflict suffering upon another. That's the meat of the matter, as it were.

Intentional infliction of harm would be an intentional sin, but wouldn't that still be a result our imperfect (Natural selves)?
No, because we know better. You can't murder someone, then shrug and say 'nobody's perfect'?

I'm not saying that's what you're doing, but I am asking where you draw the line. At what point you say 'I didn't know' or 'I can't help it' is not an acceptable excuse?

We are misguided in judgment, thus we sin often. It is only when we submit to Gods love that we are able to "Center the target", or rather meet the mark God has set for us, no?
The target for God, yes, but moral fault exists in secular systems also. I think it's possible for atheists to be 'good' by any human measure; for humanists to be good by the same degree, 'I've met humanists who'd make better Catholics than some Catholics I know' argument.

I'm sure there are atheists and humanists in paradise ...

Scripture is not about being good, Scripture is about a union with God, and what is required to attain to that union.

What IS the divine will?
That we should experience the most intimate union with the Divine, a union such that only filial or nuptial metaphors come anywhere near to expressing it.

I think existence is perfect, meaning complete, but our world and our natural selves are incomplete. God's love completes us, just as it will complete (Perfect) our world, but that's just my personal view.
OK.

I see it differently. I think the world is by nature finite, contingent and therefore imperfect. Only God is perfect, infinite, absolute ... I think the message of God is that He is hear, now, with us in this world, if we listen, and if we do as He wills.

Will that mean no more tsunamis, no more Aids, a cure for cancer and the common cold, no more Downs Syndrome? No, I don't think it does ...

I agree, Thomas See Here

By comparison with God, man’s identity is not simply in himself but outside himself, which is why he can only attain it by ‘transcendence’. The Christian believer discovers his true identity in him who, as ‘the firstborn of all creation’, holds all things together (Col. 1:15ff), with the result that we can say that our life is hidden with him in God (Col. 3:3). Through identification with Christ I discover my own entirely personal identity.” –Joseph Ratzinger, The Feast of Faith (Ignatius Press, 1986, p. 29).

God bless,

Thomas
 
I'm sure there are atheists and humanists in paradise ...

Thomas

But would you want to be working on one of the airport desks?

"Look I know this is Ryanair, but I'm a Muslim so why have I ended up in Tusita Heaven and my luggage is in Purgatory??"

s.
 
Quite, but in Scripture harmartia is meant in the sense of 1d and 1e above.

Harmartia in the philosophical sense is generally attributed to Aristotle, in Poetics. Scholars still argue its meaning, as 'missing', as 'error' or as 'offence'.

I think it's all the same, actually -- Miss the mark and it is counted as an offense against God and His will for mankind. Our sins amount to misguided deeds, no?
OK, but the issue is responsibility. To make a wilful choice, one must be free, must one not? Another question, whether one acts wilfully, or without thinking, doesn't really alter the matter. Either way, one is responsible for one's actions.
Yes, we are free to do what we want, and as you say -- We are responsible for our actions.


Technically, yes ... but 'I didn't mean it' doesn't always cut the mustard, as they say. Ignorance of the law is no defence in law. But there is a distinction between sin as an act which knowingly harms another, and sin as an act with unforseen consequences. Often people don't consider the consequences (or avoid that issue) so it's a huge 'grey area' ...

... 'grey area' is utterly the wrong term. It's the area of human relations, there's nothing grey about it at all, it's most colourful, it's where all the colour is ... we'll have to think of a better term. Perhaps, 'it's a rainbow of consequences'?
I agree -- lots of colorful consequences

In Scripture God laments the unintentional sin, it's the intentional ones that really annoy Him.
How do you know? What if our sins whether intentional or unintentional produce the same consequence (Death)?


No, or rather yes, but that's the mild stuff. That's nothing.
The other sin is the knowing that my actions will inflict suffering upon another. That's the meat of the matter, as it were.
It all leads to the same result, no?

No, because we know better. You can't murder someone, then shrug and say 'nobody's perfect'?

I'm not saying that's what you're doing, but I am asking where you draw the line. At what point you say 'I didn't know' or 'I can't help it' is not an acceptable excuse?
No, I'm not trying to weasel out of responsibility, I'm merely suggesting that our actions (Every action) has a prior cause or determinate. We are still held responsible for what we do -- To me it's all just common sense, a broken rule a consequence.

The target for God, yes, but moral fault exists in secular systems also. I think it's possible for atheists to be 'good' by any human measure; for humanists to be good by the same degree, 'I've met humanists who'd make better Catholics than some Catholics I know' argument.
I think love is the deciding factor --


Scripture is not about being good, Scripture is about a union with God, and what is required to attain to that union.
Being whole like Jesus was whole? I think we are in union with God when we allow His Love to fill us, and guide our actions.


That we should experience the most intimate union with the Divine, a union such that only filial or nuptial metaphors come anywhere near to expressing it.
Kinda like a marriage, right? Love being the binding aspect to that marriage.

I see it differently. I think the world is by nature finite, contingent and therefore imperfect. Only God is perfect, infinite, absolute ... I think the message of God is that He is hear, now, with us in this world, if we listen, and if we do as He wills.
The world yes! Existence no! Existence is perfectly complete, but we as humans are incomplete without God's guidance or without Gods love.

Will that mean no more tsunamis, no more Aids, a cure for cancer and the common cold, no more Downs Syndrome? No, I don't think it does ...
All in Good time -- All things will settle in time --


God Bless,


GK
 
But would you want to be working on one of the airport desks?

"Look I know this is Ryanair, but I'm a Muslim so why have I ended up in Tusita Heaven and my luggage is in Purgatory??"

s.

All the luggage goes to Limbo.
 
Purgatory is having to wear the same pair of socks and pants for four days running ...
 
I think it's all the same, actually -- Miss the mark and it is counted as an offense against God and His will for mankind. Our sins amount to misguided deeds, no?
Not according to Scripture, no. It depends whether one misses the mark through ignorance, or not. Jesus was quite emphatic about that.

How do you know? What if our sins whether intentional or unintentional produce the same consequence (Death)?
Because one is murder, and one isn't.

It all leads to the same result, no?
No.

The world yes! Existence no! Existence is perfectly complete, but we as humans are incomplete without God's guidance or without Gods love.
That's a contradiction, as I exist, so I am complete, but I am human, so I am incomplete? Which one is it?

God Bless,

Thomas
 
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