China Cat Sunflower
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After three days on the closet floor your socks are good again provided they were turned inside-out. This does not work if they're placed in the hamper.
Chris
Assignment: "Freewill" (Pro/Con)
- Thread starter Gatekeeper
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Chris
Pro:
I can give a measure of power to another, even if they choose torture with it and it removes from me. A bit of power I receive, and so I have a bit of power I can give. I appreciate having, and I choose to give.
I can serve others, even if they are unworthy of being served. A measure of service I can receive, and a measure of service I can give. I appreciate receiving, and I choose to give.
I can forgive others, even if they have sinned. Forgiveness I can receive, and forgiveness I can give. I appreciate receiving, and I choose to give.
Con:
I have no choice but to give a measure of power to others, in order that I may receive my own. A bit of power I must have, so a bit of power I must give. I have no choice.
I have no choice but to serve others, in order that I may be served by them. A measure of service I require, so a measure of service I must give. I have no choice.
I have no choice but to forgive others, in order that I can be forgiven. Forgiveness I require, so forgiveness I am forced to give. I have no choice.
I can give a measure of power to another, even if they choose torture with it and it removes from me. A bit of power I receive, and so I have a bit of power I can give. I appreciate having, and I choose to give.
I can serve others, even if they are unworthy of being served. A measure of service I can receive, and a measure of service I can give. I appreciate receiving, and I choose to give.
I can forgive others, even if they have sinned. Forgiveness I can receive, and forgiveness I can give. I appreciate receiving, and I choose to give.
Con:
I have no choice but to give a measure of power to others, in order that I may receive my own. A bit of power I must have, so a bit of power I must give. I have no choice.
I have no choice but to serve others, in order that I may be served by them. A measure of service I require, so a measure of service I must give. I have no choice.
I have no choice but to forgive others, in order that I can be forgiven. Forgiveness I require, so forgiveness I am forced to give. I have no choice.
In that light (pardon the pun), we will begin with two individuals with absolute power, but of decidedly different ranks of position in life.The purpose of this thread (In part) is to have a civil and amicable discussion on the often emotionally charged topic of "freewill". I ask that before you make your case "Pro" or "Con" to please do the following.
Sounds like fun, right?
- View issue from both angles
- Identify potential problems
- Separate fact from opinion
- Analyze information gathered
- Choose your side
- Restrain emotions
- Proceed with your case (Pro or Con)
Here's the catch, no outside sources are to be utilized for making your case. The entire discussion must be based entirely on our own personal convictions. I'll make my case first to get us started. Those of you participating should follow up with your own point of view (Pro or Con) but in response to my initial posting on the issue as follows:
Stance: "Con" (Free will does not exist)
“Freewill is essentially defined as being able to make choices not determined by prior causes, or is the ability to make a choice free of external and/or other physical forces.”
One thing I think we can agree on is that we are ultimately driven by our desires. I submit that we will always, no matter what, choose that which we desire most. I suggest that our every choice is determined by what we desire, as well as by our life circumstance and it is because of this that I feel free will choice does not truly exist.
Although we make choices daily I believe these choices are far from being “free”. Before we are able to choose, we must first have a desire for something. The truth of the matter is that desire will always be present before we make a conscious choice/decision.
Many variables play a role in what we desire in life, such as where we were raised, how we were raised, what we have experienced, and our current life situation. All these variables play a role in who we are and the decisions we make.
We like to think that we choose freely, but the choices we make are dependent upon both internal and external factors (Past and present) so when we make a choice we are simply acting and reacting to life according to our strongest desires and in a manner that we feel is best for us in any given situation.
To give a "revised" analogy:
“Imagine that you are on a ship and that you are the Captain of that ship. Life itself is the force moving the ship forward. It pushes the ship, giving it momentum, but you are guiding the ship yourself. You are at the helm navigating your way around the ocean, but many things play a part in your decision making.
Just like a change of wind direction would motivate you to re-arrange the sails, or the light of a lighthouse would motivate you to change direction to prevent you from hitting the rock strewn shore.
You navigate the ship the best you know how, only you do so in accordance to your circumstances, in accordance to each obstacle you face as you move forward. You ultimately guide the ship, but it is life circumstance that causes you to make the changes in navigation.”
Life circumstance determines what we desire most, and it is our desires that drive our decisions. No matter what we choose, it is because we desire 'something'. Free will is having the ability to act voluntarily in any given situation, BUT [if] we are driven by our desires, then we are not actually acting voluntarily, but rather we are acting the only way we are able, predetermined by our strongest desire at that particular moment.
By the way, this is also (In part) a project for school. We are to attempt to resolve a conflict using critical analysis, objectivity, logic, and factual information. Whether or not we agree in the end is of little concern. The meat of the assignment is getting me to actually think critically.
I used the issue of free will because I am familiar with both sides of the argument (At least a little) being that I once believed in freewill, and did my best to hold on to that belief. Now I'm on the other side of the fence doing my best to convey my understanding of the concept as I see it today.
Thanks for your help,
GK
One night a Captain of a destroyer came upon something with shining lights in the path of his vessel.
"This is the INTREPED, come about 5 degrees to my starboard".
"Come about 90 degrees to my starboard or port" was the response.
"I am with right of way sir, you will come about 5 degrees to my starboard!"
"I understand sir, you will come about 90 degrees to my starboard or port, and you will do so immediately."
"I am the Captain of the USS INTREPED, you will come about NOW!!!..."
"I am a Coast Guard Petty Officer, and this is a light house...Your call sir..."
It seems funny, maybe fitting, that a joke with a miscommunication is itself full of greater miscommunication relative to the seafaring community. If you were ever in the Coast Guard, why would you even post this malformed version, especially here?
The more original version that I saw a decade ago looked like this:
The aircraft carrier that thought a lighthouse was another ship-Fiction!
joke_fiction said:
greymare
Well-Known Member
It seems my opinion on free will was deleted, so I will state it again, if thats ok.
I believe we have free will.
and , (in a nutshell) God gave us free will, and we use Him as a guide.
I do not believe we always go with our greatest desires....many of us go against it....... perhaps begrudingly, for someone elses benefit. that to me is free will. Just a little example.
I think He gives us options, and its up to us to choose. We are free to do that. Even if we make a mistake, as long as He is our guide, I think it all works out.
thats just my opinion.
Love the Grey
I believe we have free will.
and , (in a nutshell) God gave us free will, and we use Him as a guide.
I do not believe we always go with our greatest desires....many of us go against it....... perhaps begrudingly, for someone elses benefit. that to me is free will. Just a little example.
I think He gives us options, and its up to us to choose. We are free to do that. Even if we make a mistake, as long as He is our guide, I think it all works out.
thats just my opinion.
Love the Grey
Ben Masada
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Etu Malku
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The OP stated:
Free Will needs to be redefined as its usage is antiquated and not applicable to today's Knowledge.
Freedom of Will sounds better to me, and has nothing to do with making choices, which we make based on our ethical stances. It does have to do with projecting 'your' Will or fulfilling the Will of another. Thus Freedom of Will id being Free from the Will of another and projecting your Will into the objective universe.
Free Will needs to be redefined as its usage is antiquated and not applicable to today's Knowledge.
Freedom of Will sounds better to me, and has nothing to do with making choices, which we make based on our ethical stances. It does have to do with projecting 'your' Will or fulfilling the Will of another. Thus Freedom of Will id being Free from the Will of another and projecting your Will into the objective universe.
radarmark
Quaker-in-the-Making
By "free will" I mean the ability to makes choices (not merely ethical choices). I have the free will to look at either the palm of my hand or turn it over to look at its back. I have the free will to hold my breath until I pass out, when I no longer have free will and my autonomous nervous system makes me breathe again. It is the ability to act on my desires; which automatically assumes that I am not including those whims or wishes (hitting the game-winning home run for the Cardinals) which I doi not have the freedom of action to accomplish. So, strictly speaking my free will is manifested whenever I do something I might have otherwise not have done or vice versa.
The key to the concept is that it is in opposition to strict determinism. Redefining it means we would have to come up with some other phrase to mean "non-deterministic behavior by human beings, in accordance with their desires, made by conscious action". Yep, we could use that instead but "free will" is a lot shorter and easier and historically valid.
Do we have it? Yep. I started this with a couple of examples. The only alternative I know of is to believe that my conscious experience of deciding to turn my hand over to look at its back is all a fiction, in which case this post and anything we do in our lives is pointless and meaningless and valueless. We might as well all drink Jim Jones' kool-aid.
Pax et amore omnia vincunt!
The key to the concept is that it is in opposition to strict determinism. Redefining it means we would have to come up with some other phrase to mean "non-deterministic behavior by human beings, in accordance with their desires, made by conscious action". Yep, we could use that instead but "free will" is a lot shorter and easier and historically valid.
Do we have it? Yep. I started this with a couple of examples. The only alternative I know of is to believe that my conscious experience of deciding to turn my hand over to look at its back is all a fiction, in which case this post and anything we do in our lives is pointless and meaningless and valueless. We might as well all drink Jim Jones' kool-aid.
Pax et amore omnia vincunt!
Etu Malku
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Okay, that IS too long . . . keep it Free Will and I'll keep Freedom of Will
Note of Interest:
According to American scholar Erich Fromm, humans have a need for a stable frame of reference. Religion apparently fills this need. In effect, humans crave answers to questions that no other source of knowledge has an answer to, which only religion may seem to answer. However, a sense of free will must be given in order for religion to appear healthy. An authoritarian notion of religion appears detrimental.
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
Either way, free-will or freedom of will would entail developing control over your self: self-control. It could take a lot of work to do so.
So then it is a move to a secluded and deserted island to be closer to the total control over self?
Yet when control is given, control is found. When control is taken, control is lost. The slice of a solely owned pie is lesser than the slice of the pie that was shared. The freedom of a person on a deserted island is perhaps lesser than a person living in solitary confinement at a prison, since they will find little choice but to labor to find and cook their own food. Mutual control trumps self-control, and sacrifice trumps selfishness, in the measure of freedom, and free-will.
Etu Malku
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Freedom of Will is a goal of Luciferianism and one that does take an incredible amount of work, it is a part of the individuation process towards apotheosis.
Etu Malku
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I couldn't disagree more!So then it is a move to a secluded and deserted island to be closer to the total control over self?
Yet when control is given, control is found. When control is taken, control is lost. The slice of a solely owned pie is lesser than the slice of the pie that was shared. The freedom of a person on a deserted island is perhaps lesser than a person living in solitary confinement at a prison, since they will find little choice but to labor to find and cook their own food. Mutual control trumps self-control, and sacrifice trumps selfishness, in the measure of freedom, and free-will.
First, self-control is merely a part of gaining total control over one's self.
True control is that of sovereignty and exists within the heart of life and civilization, not in isolation.
How is one slice of pie any lesser that the whole pie? That is selfishness and not being 'pious'
How can a stranded person on an island be free? Makes little sense.
Mutual control is just that, mutual surrender of Will, not much different than Jonestown mentality. Sacrifice is an act implemented by socio-religious minds in the attempt of further control
IowaGuy
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How does the Buddhist concept of "No Self" relate to the Luceferian goal of "freedom of will"? Are they at odds with one another, i.e. mutually exclusive? Or could they work together in harmony?
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
Only if this introvert doesn't get the space I need.
I could agree with this in the context of the centipede's dilemma. {But that is within one individual}
I know.
Half of a pie made together is bigger and better than the full pie made alone.
Exactly! Self-control is not freedom.
Is control good, or is control bad?
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
Unbinding the mind from being enslaved by uncontrolled desire brings liberation. Anatta is "no static essense of self that can be pinned down." Letting go of the idea of a static self makes room for the ability to change/transform and to be able to take control of oneself, component by component. You are no longer "stuck" or "bound" an idea that can't be pinned down.
Etu Malku
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What is the Buddhist concept? I bet it is harmonious with what I am talking about
Etu Malku
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Good . . . Bad? For whom? Again these terms are subjective.