Assignment: "Freewill" (Pro/Con)

[Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine]

Originally posted by seattlegal
Please describe the determining mechanisms that caused me to select that particular pair of underwear.

They were clean and didn't require a needle and thread or the rag basket/garbage can/dustbin? Whereas, there is a crying need to do laundry and/or pick up a new pair or two at the local department store?

Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

 

[Gatekeeper]

Not for that particular pair. Please describe the determining mechanisms that caused me to select that particular pair of underwear.

I couldn't possibly do that. You have your own mind, independent of my own. Your choice was based on the things that make you so unique. Maybe the pair you chose was closest, or maybe you dug deep in the pile desiring just to grab any ole pair without concern of which one you ended up choosing?

In the end, you had a want to put on a new pair of under garments, which determined your will (Course of action), and then you acted according to your will, whether you were concerned about which pair you ended up choosing or not.

Want determined your course of action, whether you desired one pair of under garments over another is moot. You still chose according to your desire to grab a pair (Any pair) of under garments.

 

[seattlegal]

I couldn't possibly do that. You have your own mind, independent of my own. Your choice was based on the things that make you so unique.

Ahh, the things that make me unique were the causal factors? The causal factors for my selection came from me, {as opposed to outside influences?}

Definition of FREE WILL
​

: voluntary choice or decision <I do this of my own free will>
2
: freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention
​

Maybe the pair you chose was closest, or maybe you dug deep in the pile desiring just to grab any ole pair without concern of which one you ended up choosing?

So many indeterminate factors there, huh?

In the end, you had a want to put on a new pair of under garments, which determined your will (Course of action), and then you acted according to your will, whether you were concerned about which pair you ended up choosing or not.

Want determined your course of action, whether you desired one pair of under garments over another is moot.

Ah, so desire is not always the causal force for our selections?

You still chose according to your desire to grab a pair (Any pair) of under garments.

Indeed. Still this does not satisfy the need for determining causal factors for the selection of that particular pair.

freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention
​

 

[Gatekeeper]

Ahh, the things that make me unique were the causal factors? The causal factors for my selection came from me, {as opposed to outside influences?}

Definition of FREE WILL
​

: voluntary choice or decision <I do this of my own free will>
2
: freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention
​

So many indeterminate factors there, huh?



Ah, so desire is not always the causal force for our selections?

Indeed. Still this does not satisfy the need for determining causal factors for the selection of that particular pair.

freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention
​

The determining factor was your desire to pick any ole pair. Had you desired to pick a particular pair that pair would have been picked instead. You consciously desired to pick what ever pair you picked up, as in you didn't desire a particular pair, but your did desire to pick any pair, thus choosing the pair you picked up, hehe!

In other words, there was no indeterminate action taken. You were determined to pick any pair, so that's exactly what you did.

 

[seattlegal]

The determining factor was your desire to pick any ole pair. Had you desired to pick a particular pair that pair would have been picked instead. You consciously desired to pick what ever pair you picked up, as in you didn't desire a particular pair, but your did desire to pick any pair, thus choosing the pair you picked up, hehe!

In other words, there was no indeterminate action taken. You were determined to pick any pair, so that's exactly what you did.

My action was particular in nature, but my will was indeterminate in nature. Indeed, those who's wills are overly particular in nature are considered by many to be anal-retentive control freaks!

 

[Gatekeeper]

My action was particular in nature, but my will was indeterminate in nature. Indeed, those who's wills are overly particular in nature are considered by many to be anal-retentive control freaks!

Hehehe! Your will (Deliberate course of action) was to pick up just any pair, so it was still a very determined action, it just wasn't an overly particular one.

 

[seattlegal]

Hehehe! Your will (Deliberate course of action) was to pick up just any pair, so it was still a very determined action, it just wasn't an overly particular one.

Ah, but can you see why I say we are not always driven by desire in the choices we make? I did not desire nor did I deliberately choose that particular pair of underwear, yet both my will was accomplished and my desires were satisfied by my selection. And no one had to hold my hand in my making my selection.

 

[Gatekeeper]

Ah, but can you see why I say we are not always driven by desire in the choices we make? I did not desire nor did I deliberately choose that particular pair of underwear, yet both my will was accomplished and my desires were satisfied by my selection. And no one had to hold my hand in my making my selection.

But, but, but wasn't it your desire to pick any pair whatsoever? A very determined desire it was, and a very determined outcome it became. Your seriously implying that since you desired to pick any pair whatsoever and by choosing accordingly, that your weren't motivated by the desire to pick any pair whatsoever? But, but, but that's exactly what you ended up doing.

1. Cause: ???

2. Desire: Was to pick any ole pair of undergarments

3. Will/act: You chose according to your desire to pick any ole pair

4. Result: Desire and will both met


Conclusion: You did exactly what you wanted to do

 

[seattlegal]

But, but, but wasn't it your desire to pick any pair whatsoever? A very determined desire it was, and a very determined outcome it became. Your seriously implying that since you desired to pick any pair whatsoever and by choosing accordingly, that your weren't motivated by the desire to pick any pair whatsoever? But, but, but that's exactly what you ended up doing.

1. Cause: ???

2. Desire: Was to pick any ole pair of undergarments

3. Will/act: You chose according to your desire to pick any ole pair

4. Result: Desire and will both met


Conclusion: You did exactly what you wanted to do

Indeed. Now does this fit the criteria for the definition of free-will, according to Merriam-Webster? Let's see:

: voluntary choice or decision <I do this of my own free will>
​

Check!

2
: freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention
​

Was I destined to select this particular pair of underwear or not?

I will admit that the range of my selection was limited by my prior choices of the underwear I had procured in the past, and further limited by the results of my laundry habits and my putting the underwear in the drawer.

Were the causes of my selecting that particular pair from the several pairs that were available determined by prior causes or by divine intervention? I would not label my selecting that particular pair as a mistake, so it does not get the "mistake exclusion" from being a freewill choice.

 

[Gatekeeper]

Indeed. Now does this fit the criteria for the definition of free-will, according to Merriam-Webster? Let's see:

: voluntary choice or decision <I do this of my own free will>
​

Check!

2
: freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention
​

Was I destined to select this particular pair of underwear or not?

I will admit that the range of my selection was limited by my prior choices of the underwear I had procured in the past, and further limited by the results of my laundry habits and my putting the underwear in the drawer.

Were the causes of my selecting that particular pair from the several pairs that were available determined by prior causes or by divine intervention? I would not label my selecting that particular pair as a mistake, so it does not get the "mistake exclusion" from being a freewill choice.

No, I don't believe everything is predetermined or theologically speaking predestined. I never suggested I did, did I? Even so, I do believe that everything has a prior determinant, or cause. Your desire to choose random pair of underwear gave you the ability to choose a random pair of under wear.

We are able beings, and we are able to change our course in life at any given moment, but in order to do so, we must have the desire [to] change our course in life. Whether this has anything to do with freewill, I don't know, but you're underwear experiment certainly suggests that we cannot predict the unpredictable.

 

[bob x]

Really? You know this is "false"? Can you "prove" this alleged falsehood, Bob?

You are arguing for a crude determinism which physics abandoned eighty years ago.

You seem to have a beef with me using the terms most, strongest, dominant, but on a conscious level we do choose a course of action (Will) accordingly.

*shrug* Your mileage may vary. MY conscious experience is that none of the competing desires "dominates" any of the others until I DECIDE that it does.

Since our very action, thought, want, etc. is a product of prior causes...

You are, again, assuming what you claim to be proving. I agree rather with Kalu Rinpoche, "The very essence of the unconditioned mind is spontaneity."

 

[Snoopy]

I see the rule about no outside sources is a bit flexible in this thread!

So, as this is an interfaith forum...

Surely it is critical to our thinking on free will what our personal religious beliefs are. For example in theistic schools of Hinduism, the will of the deity is crucial in the affairs of people; whereas by comparison, in Buddhism, being non-theistic there is no controlling will of a deity. In Buddhist belief, one is only constrained by the fact that the past is past and cannot be undone.

Do you think your future is fated or do you believe in free will?

s.

 

[Paladin]

I see the rule about no outside sources is a bit flexible in this thread!

So, as this is an interfaith forum...

Surely it is critical to our thinking on free will what our personal religious beliefs are. For example in theistic schools of Hinduism, the will of the deity is crucial in the affairs of people; whereas by comparison, in Buddhism, being non-theistic there is no controlling will of a deity. In Buddhist belief, one is only constrained by the fact that the past is past and cannot be undone.

Do you think your future is fated or do you believe in free will?

s.

Umm are these the only choices we get?

 

[Snoopy]

Umm are these the only choices we get?

'choices' huh?!

No, just providing a stimulus...

s.

 

[seattlegal]

The key point in the free-will debate is a person being morally responsible for their actions with freewill, not morally responsible for their actions without freewill, and not guilty due to mental illness in the no-self view.

Would forgiveness be a freewill act? I don't think you can force forgiveness any more than you can force love.

 

[Paladin]

@ Snoopy: Interesting choice of words!
@ Seattle:
In that I've seen the unreality of self or the reality of self as construct I still like your post. As always I think you are aware of much more than you let on young lady

 

[Snoopy]

According to the Abrahamic religions, is there free will? I think I have read that in Christianity, God gave Man free will but I also seem to have read that God knows what we are going to do and so there is no free will, in reality...

s.

 

[seattlegal]

According to the Abrahamic religions, is there free will? I think I have read that in Christianity, God gave Man free will but I also seem to have read that God knows what we are going to do and so there is no free will, in reality...

s.

Hmm, the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil sound about right?

"Good and evil are essential differences of the act of the will. For good and evil pertain essentially to the will; just as truth and falsehood pertain to the reason, the act of which is distinguished essentially by the difference of truth and falsehood (according as we say that an opinion is true or false.) Consequently, good and evil volition are acts differing in species."
~Thomas Aquinas​

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

Hmm, the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil sound about right?

"Good and evil are essential differences of the act of the will. For good and evil pertain essentially to the will; just as truth and falsehood pertain to the reason, the act of which is distinguished essentially by the difference of truth and falsehood (according as we say that an opinion is true or false.) Consequently, good and evil volition are acts differing in species."
~Thomas Aquinas​

It is an essential fall into consciousness WITH sexual awareness. Who would want to live in a state of "un-fallen" unawareness? And the whole thing is set up to make sure that happens, so God can't be at all surprised. The very first thing humans do is disobey-because they must. Gee, do you want to have a human race or not? Gotta f*** to make that happen. So the idea that we messed up is crap. This had to happen. Humans had to have the ability to decide on their own. It's a gritty reality, and the very next thing they do is start to kill each other and band off into competitive tribes of city dwellers versus nomadic herders. So that tells you right there that this isn't the original version of how things really began. It's retrospective, rewrite, cultural propaganda.

Chris

 

[Thomas]

Hi Snoopy —

According to the Abrahamic religions, is there free will?

Yes, absolutely. Neither sin nor evil can exist as a concept without it.

... but I also seem to have read that God knows what we are going to do and so there is no free will, in reality...

I would say that the fact that God knows what a person will do does not mean God wills the action. The person is free to act, or not to act, and whichever course the person follows, God knows the outcome.

Consider: A person decides two courses of action by the toss of a coin. Does God determine which way the coin will fall? No. But God does know the outcome of either course of action.

If we factor multiple universes into the equation, then we have God who knows the outcome of every act and every possible act ...

God bless,

Thomas