Faith: Belief vs. Knowing

..I see this place more of a cooperation and what you do as a competition. And you have nothing to gain by going on like you do, you won't actually convert anyone, and your aggressive points of view can put people of. Like me..

Sorry, I was hoping this would be a fearless debating forum, but it seems it's more of a fragile polite tea party where we mustn't upset anybody.
I'm already pulling my punches because I can sense you're all just not as tough as me..:)
As for "putting people off", my feedback (below) from my fans around the net certainly doesn't indicate that, and people are already beginning to suggest I'm wasting my time here. Perhaps they're right..;)

Apple Pie - "Really good to see you, Mick. Come on over to 4church, we could do with your input and your humour"
Lillian - "Mick please come back..it's nice having you on the board"
BlessedOne - "Glad to have you here Mick! Jesus is the way!"
ChildofLight - "So good to read your responses Mick, some are quite witty and made LOL"
Happysandyh - "welcome Mick, welcome welcome!"
HenryS - "You are brilliant Mick in finding appropriate phrases. Another one of your superb emails to store"
Firebrand - "Amen and welcome Mick"
Coconut - "Whew! Thanks for sharing Mick"
Sarah4Jesus - "Listen to Mick in Plymouth, he is a great teacher"
Cathie - "Very wise advice Mick, thanks"
Kierri - "That was one of the best explanations I've ever heard! Yay for Mick in Plymouth"
Haimehenmmli - "I LOVE IT MATE!!! I'm going to put it into my files, with some of my other favorites, from you"
Evachrst3 - "Right on, Mick, I couldn't agree more.Thank you for defending the faith so eloquently".
Devilmademedoit2 - "I love this! Thanks, Mick!"
SweetSummer96 - "Wow. That's a cool story Mick."
Vespasian052 - "Wow! Mick,what an awesome tale.."
Beekpr9 - "Amen to all you have said, Mick!"
Saipan1777 - "Spot on Mick bravo"
Duke Tinn - "Thanks again Mick. Great Stuff"
Tahella - "Welcome Mick!"
Ainglkiss - "Mick what a wonderful story. You write so well. Keep up the great work"
MonkGirl - "Wow, thank you Mick! That is really comforting...and all I really needed to hear!"
WOFman - "Welcome Mick!"
JeffC - "HELL YEAH! PREACH IT BROTHER, THE REALITY WAY! (LUV YUR STYLE....)
Nottonguetied - "I loved those stories from Mick"
Honeybearx - "This was very good reading thank you Mick"
Megan - "Mick, I just wanted to tell you that I loved this story, it was very touching"
Benjoman - "Your one of the only ones from the singles board that I still love Mick"
Allisoneness -"You are the one true Christian on here, keep up the good work and praise the Lord"
Sherry Anne - "Mick i love your posts"
Antipas - "Brilliant yet again Mick"
Easynote - "ROFL Mick you are pure class, another of your timeless classics!"
Kermit - "I love Mick. He is so, how shall I say it, RIGHT ON THE MONEY AND FUNNY, TOO"
Kermmiekr - "How uplifting Mick, and so very true"
Spannerose - "Mick, I would like you to know that the result of reading your posts I am left with the desire to pick up my bible for the first time in years"
 
How can any religion that rejects Jesus the Son of God have any light at all in it?

They don't, but you have already made up your mind havent' you? I guess your brand of Christianity is tailor made for your own sense of self aggrandizement.
Good luck with that kiddo.
 
Sorry, I was hoping this would be a fearless debating forum, but it seems it's more of a fragile polite tea party where we mustn't upset anybody.
I'm already pulling my punches because I can sense you're all just not as tough as me..:)
As for "putting people off", my feedback (below) from my fans around the net certainly doesn't indicate that, and people are already beginning to suggest I'm wasting my time here. Perhaps they're right..;)

Apple Pie - "Really good to see you, Mick. Come on over to 4church, we could do with your input and your humour"
Lillian - "Mick please come back..it's nice having you on the board"
BlessedOne - "Glad to have you here Mick! Jesus is the way!"
ChildofLight - "So good to read your responses Mick, some are quite witty and made LOL"
Happysandyh - "welcome Mick, welcome welcome!"
HenryS - "You are brilliant Mick in finding appropriate phrases. Another one of your superb emails to store"
Firebrand - "Amen and welcome Mick"
Coconut - "Whew! Thanks for sharing Mick"
Sarah4Jesus - "Listen to Mick in Plymouth, he is a great teacher"
Cathie - "Very wise advice Mick, thanks"
Kierri - "That was one of the best explanations I've ever heard! Yay for Mick in Plymouth"
Haimehenmmli - "I LOVE IT MATE!!! I'm going to put it into my files, with some of my other favorites, from you"
Evachrst3 - "Right on, Mick, I couldn't agree more.Thank you for defending the faith so eloquently".
Devilmademedoit2 - "I love this! Thanks, Mick!"
SweetSummer96 - "Wow. That's a cool story Mick."
Vespasian052 - "Wow! Mick,what an awesome tale.."
Beekpr9 - "Amen to all you have said, Mick!"
Saipan1777 - "Spot on Mick bravo"
Duke Tinn - "Thanks again Mick. Great Stuff"
Tahella - "Welcome Mick!"
Ainglkiss - "Mick what a wonderful story. You write so well. Keep up the great work"
MonkGirl - "Wow, thank you Mick! That is really comforting...and all I really needed to hear!"
WOFman - "Welcome Mick!"
JeffC - "HELL YEAH! PREACH IT BROTHER, THE REALITY WAY! (LUV YUR STYLE....)
Nottonguetied - "I loved those stories from Mick"
Honeybearx - "This was very good reading thank you Mick"
Megan - "Mick, I just wanted to tell you that I loved this story, it was very touching"
Benjoman - "Your one of the only ones from the singles board that I still love Mick"
Allisoneness -"You are the one true Christian on here, keep up the good work and praise the Lord"
Sherry Anne - "Mick i love your posts"
Antipas - "Brilliant yet again Mick"
Easynote - "ROFL Mick you are pure class, another of your timeless classics!"
Kermit - "I love Mick. He is so, how shall I say it, RIGHT ON THE MONEY AND FUNNY, TOO"
Kermmiekr - "How uplifting Mick, and so very true"
Spannerose - "Mick, I would like you to know that the result of reading your posts I am left with the desire to pick up my bible for the first time in years"

Kid, you are not even old enough to know what tough is, and as far as debating is concerned you haven't got the chops for it. Most of your posts are riddled with fallacy and immature argument.
 
@waymarker

Rubbish. You were hoping to evangelise to some sheep ready to receive your  wisdom. People do stay here for debate, they don't come here to be spoonfed facile messages. Various people have tried to warn you we're not brain-dead.

And what's tough got to do with interfaith communication? Must be the military thing. It's easy to be a keyboard warrior. Just not very mature.

Maybe you are wasting your time here. Perhaps you should go back to one of you sheep farm forums.

But thanks for the pictures.
 
You know, sometimes I think that to perceive is to be in error in that there is so much more of which to be aware.
Perception from awareness, and awareness from perception.
Or, as some mental masturbators may prefer: perception by the absence of perception, and awareness by the absence of awareness. :)

Where I agree with you: Different cooks will read a recipe differently.
Where I disagree with you: Why.
 
Perception from awareness, and awareness from perception.
Or, as some mental masturbators may prefer: perception by the absence of perception, and awareness by the absence of awareness. :)

Where I agree with you: Different cooks will read a recipe differently.
Where I disagree with you: Why.

So tell me why. We may not be in disagreement at all. At least I will be able to see what you mean more clearly and perhaps get an education in the process. :)
 
Waymarker said:
How can any religion that rejects Jesus the Son of God have any light at all in it?
You've assumed the gospels are simple to read and have told me so in another thread. You assume that Jesus preached to you and in terms a gentile would understand, but Jesus preaches to Jews about complex Jewish issues! His preaching is yes about uneducated gentiles entering the kingdom of God, but it is directed to highly educated types. Not long after Jesus, Jewish people stopped looking for converts.

Jesus knocks at every door just like a stranger knocking. It is the common knock that all people hear to love their fellow and to see God's light in them. That is why its a knock, not a 'Hello I'm Jesus and if you accept my gospel then you can get baptized and so on and so forth and then you speak my name and we'll see about having some dinner together.'
 
Sorry, I was hoping this would be a fearless debating forum, but it seems it's more of a fragile polite tea party where we mustn't upset anybody.
I'm already pulling my punches because I can sense you're all just not as tough as me..:)
As for "putting people off", my feedback (below) from my fans around the net certainly doesn't indicate that, and people are already beginning to suggest I'm wasting my time here. Perhaps they're right..;)

What is your actual purpose here? What do you intend to accomplish? You seem, from my point of view, to want to tell people that they Jesus is the only way. Why do you come to a multi religious forum for this? Do you think anyone accept a Christian is susceptible to this? Why would anyone come here if not to share and absorb the ideas? I rally want to know.

And you have fans? That's cool I guess. They probably agree with you about Jesus, so it might be easier to have a dialogue with them.

I don't know if you're staying here or not, and since you seem pretty mush as young as me this might be presumptuous of me but what the heck, I would like to give you some advice that I find true. Try not to use so many quotations in your posts it looses it's effect when there are so many, why not pick one so that it will really stand out. Either way, basing to much on a quotation can also weaken the argument since it originated from a second hand source and is translated from a dead language, so in the best of cases someone might twist the quotation to serve some other point or they might dig up another quotation from another page stating the opposite. Since none can PROVE what is meant from that single piece of text both will go away frustrated.

With regards
The Cup Full of some brown liquid
 
There is nothing wrong with any scripture, I uphold them all, what I cannot allow for myself is a conforming to the understandings of those which have no experienced themselves. How can you tell me what is intended when you do not have direct knowledge yourself? It makes no sense to me, and yet billion of people world wide frequent places that try to tell you how to worship the Ultimate.
How many scriptures do you obey, as you claim to uphold, them, all? How is your method of worshipping the Ultimate, by unplugging, working out? I am fuzzy on whether you have claimed to have that experience, or, not.
 
Can a person of faith know the true path? Or do they believe it is the true path? I find that these words are often mixed up, are there a difference?

I personally don't believe the general population know right from wrong in science. There are always scientists arguing from both sides of a dispute. And reading a report about the population growth of a certain rodent in a specific area won't give me the knowledge to know that it is true. I can learn the different markers and signs that there is a population growth and I can trust that the scientist is telling the whole truth, and I can believe that they made all necessary experiments and made the the propper conclusions based on this. But I don't believe that I can know that they didn't miss a vital fact.

But Faith don't work like this, and since I have next to no experience with faith I wish to learn.

Sometimes I look back at all the things I used to think and say and feel that they were silly and immature, that I've grown so much more beyond those ways of believing. Logically that would mean that even now I am still silly and immature and those things I currently think will pass away and be put away like other childish things.
But, on the other hand, I never think a seedling is silly, or a sapling immature and only a fully grown tree is in fact right.
So maybe even the youngest among us, even those who are full of themselves have their place and their time to be who and what they are.
The only thing that has been constant for me over the years is a nagging suspicion that I really don't understand much at all.
 
Sometimes I look back at all the things I used to think and say and feel that they were silly and immature, that I've grown so much more beyond those ways of believing. Logically that would mean that even now I am still silly and immature and those things I currently think will pass away and be put away like other childish things.
But, on the other hand, I never think a seedling is silly, or a sapling immature and only a fully grown tree is in fact right.
So maybe even the youngest among us, even those who are full of themselves have their place and their time to be who and what they are.
The only thing that has been constant for me over the years is a nagging suspicion that I really don't understand much at all.
Here, here...

Ya look back to twenty years ago and see how far we've come...and twenty years from now we'll do the same thing again...and twenty years from then will do it one more time...and G!d willing 20 years....
 
That is what you keep expressing, as you apparently prefer to think it. :)

I told you why I think we read differently.

Sorry to seem so thick, but I really like seeing how you see things. I thought you meant there was a reason for seeing things differently and that you had some interesting insights as to why that might be.
 
Ya look back to twenty years ago and see how far we've come...and twenty years from now we'll do the same thing again...and twenty years from then will do it one more time...and G!d willing 20 years....

I'm not that young, or old, but ....... I think when people look back at the younger generation they think ........ oh no, it's happening all over again. I was just there a moment ago. In a little while that guy is going to be here too, looking back.

The baby Muslim is telling women to wear hijab because if you don't, you're a sex object. The baby Christian is telling people to accept Jesus as your saviour because if you don't, you're not protected. The teenage boy starts behaving like Casanova because he thinks that if he doesn't lose his virginity he won't get his manhood. With so many other boys doing the same thing, it is difficult to resist.

Oh how what we see as the right thing to do depends so much on what we have experienced........
 
How many scriptures do you obey, as you claim to uphold, them, all? How is your method of worshipping the Ultimate, by unplugging, working out? I am fuzzy on whether you have claimed to have that experience, or, not.

I uphold their truths, for me they are entirely synthesized and thus it is not difficult at all to live by each and every one I have known.

I am worshipful at all times, I am deeply grateful for existence every second.
 
You understand that "yoke" is the most direct translation of "yoga" in the English language? Nothing about Christianity is aimed at the intellectual though, this simply isn't its focus, it is a faith founded on devotion and service - bhakti and karma yoga respectively.

A yoke is an instrument used in farming, to tie the necks of a pair of oxen. It symbolises slavery, captivity and bondage.

The prophet Jeremiah used the idea of a yoke to tell people what would happen to them when the king of Babylon defeated Judah and deported people to Babylon. If they co-operated, things would be easier for them.

When Jesus spoke of a yoke, he was talking about a master and servant/student relationship. A student is supposed to do everything his teacher says as part of his learning. As long as they are a student, they must be compliant. It was as if the student was "bonded" to their teacher. Again, the yoke symbolises bondage and captivity. Jesus is claiming that he treats his students better than the other teachers.

I don't know what your background is, but I get the impression that you are much more influenced by Eastern traditions than the Abrahamic ones. It is more likely that Jesus was using a concept that referred to farming practices employed by the people of Israel than something that came from Eastern traditions. The English word looking like "yoga" is irrelevant.

Greek influences would have been stronger than Eastern influences. Second-Temple Jews did use Greek for communication purposes, but it was only for convenience. They didn't actually understand Greek. If they couldn't understand the Greek language despite Greek influences being the most dominant of the foreign influences among the Jewish people, it is very unlikely they knew anything about Hinduism or Buddhism.

The Gospels contain plenty of Hebraisms and whatever the Greek says is probably a direct translation of Hebrew. The Gospel of Matthew which I quoted would have been more Jewish in contrast to the Gospel of John which is often called "the Gentile Gospel." Having said that, it would have had far less foreign influences associated with it.

I agree, my statements do not include modern Christianity, but they do encompass many statements in the Bible. I merely look at them from a more universal perspective, and thus I see a supremely mystical statement in 1 Corinthians 12:12-27 where most Christians seem to see... uhh, I'm not entirely sure. I also see 1 John 4:8 as quite mystical, amongst many other statements. There are Catholic mystic schools which understand these things, but Christianity as a whole pays them little mind it seems, or at least fails to grasp them fully.

I think what you call "mysticism" is really Greek philosophical constructs. If mysticism is about secret knowledge, then the NT doesn't really contain secrets. I am not saying it's all straightforward. Most Christians are unaware of the Greek influences in the NT. It's one of the best kept secrets of Christianity, but it isn't mysticism. It's history. There's nothing special about it, because if you knew enough about Greek philosophy, you would be able to make sense of it.

Mysticism is spiritual, but philosophy is not. Mysticism is the search for something greater than the human experience. Philosophy does not seek to find something beyond the human experience. The human experience is as far as philosophy will go. Because a lot of the concepts you find in the NT are Greek philosophical constructs, you should assume that Christianity is more about the human experience than something mystical.

The Greeks were more philosophical than mystical and because Christianity spread in a Greek and Roman world, Christianity did not become mystical. That's why most of the conflicts within Christianity have been about semantics.

I would have to agree if you told me that a lot of internal Christian conflicts are pretty ridiculous and banal because they have little to do with your earthly experience. It has little to do with making your life better or even seeking something beyond the human experience (mysticism). It's all semantics. Christian attitudes toward non-Christian ideas often aren't much better.

I'm not particularly comfortable with the idea of mysticism and it's not because mysticism can't be good, but because the Greek philosophical influences in the NT have driven Christians over the centuries down the wrong path. I dislike the idea that we should embrace these constructs any more than we have already done in the last 2,000 years. Actually I think we should avoid these Greek philosophical constructs altogether, separate the Judaic/Hebraic from the Greek and completely embrace the Judaic/Hebraic. Because the constructs fill much of the NT, we must develop a hermeneutic to re-interpret the NT to avoid them.

Because of the atrocities by Christians in the last 2,000 years, the "Greek" in the NT has become an abomination. I think we should be forbidden to allow ourselves to be indoctrinated by it any longer. That is how serious the situation has become. Just like Tertullian said, what does Athens have to do with Jerusalem? Christian persecution of Jews and Muslims was an expression of Greek arrogance. Pretty much every expression of Christian supremacism is an expression of Greek arrogance.

But to continue with my contrast between mystical and philosophical........

Paul wrote to a Greek audience using more or less than very own ideas. Paul told them to turn away from their "paganism" and replace it with Christ. Is that mysticism or philosophy? I think it's more likely to be philosophy. The fact that Paul needed to show that Christ was the correct path means he was being philosophical, not mystical. In philosophy you seek the right answers. Mysticism, I have to assume isn't about right answers but like I said before it is about going beyond the human experience. Because the world beyond human experience may be too big to explore fully, you may never have the right answers. In fact, you go in knowing there are no right answers.

But according to Paul, the answer is right before them. It is Christ. There is no need to keep searching.

The NT does not contain hermeneutic rules for its own interpretation so it is completely up to you if you want to take the mystical interpretation. My point is simply for you not to assume it's mystical just because you're used to mysticism. Don't assume that there is more to it than there actually is.

That said, I am quite against any organized religion, a common thread in my posts is that of rejecting group-think.

I am against fundamentalism, but not organised religion. I oppose the established ideology whenever it contradicts my own. I'm not against group-think. I used to be. I used to be an anarchist. I used to abhor the idea of people conforming, as a group to the same idea. Group conformity gave people power, power that could be used to dominate, persecute and oppress. The group devalued anyone who did not conform.

I now believe that there is a time and place for everything. There should be a balance between individualism and collectivism. Some groups must be allowed to prevail because of their merits and virtues. That is why we have governments.

If I like your ideas I will vote and vouch for you. If I don't, I will argue and bicker. If I don't care, I won't say anything and will just mind my own business. Now you know my policies.

Christ has merely shared his own experience and understanding, you must find your own. I think this is where it can be useful to venture into other texts, for you can gain a better understanding

I don't think Jesus merely came to share his own experience. I think he has a critical role to play in the drama of the human race. Reading and gaining knowledge helps me to think of ideas on how this drama will play out. Jesus' legacy is greater than his teachings. They have social, political and economic implications.

when you see that all point to the same thing, you see what is actually conveyed rather than relying on a group to tell you how to understand it.

I don't believe they all point to the same thing. All the world's books are like organs in the human body, they are like components of an organic system. None of these components is self-sufficient or does all the work. Each has its own place, its own function. Many of them mention God, but they also mention other things. It's not all about God. It's not all about one thing. It's not all about anything. It's more of a question of what you think it's about and that's completely up to you. To become focused on one thing is narrow-mindedness.

to truly have successful discussion here we must not focus on a particular tradition.

I've been focusing mainly on the Abrahamic faiths and the reason is because I haven't seen everything yet. I think of new questions to answer almost every month.

To do this, sometimes it is appropriate to almost attack such a tradition, merely to show some absurdities within it and permit a disconnect that enables useful discussion. Of course, this can backfire in some cases because the other party becomes defensive, I only know what I say is what must be said and will be utilized as appropriate.

That's the nature of politics, but keep in mind that it is up to the adherents of any tradition to decide what they want to do with their tradition. It's actually more appropriate if it is your tradition. If it is not your tradition, it may actually be disrespectful. Respectful politics usually only applies within the group. For an outside party to barge in, it would be like a foreign invading force.
 
Mysticism is never a secret, it is protected only because of the evidence of the effects of exposing it. Mysticism is fundamentally an inquiry into the most basic of mysteries: who am I, and why am I here. You see this in Jesus - the Jews have killed him for his statements. You see this with Mohammad - it became necessary to fight a war to protect his teachings. You see it in Krishna - he too has fought a battle to protect righteousness. We could go further, and bring up men like Al Hillaj Mansoor... always the orthodox is against truth, their whole system depends on you going to them for lies so how can they permit truth?

My exposure to East and West is equal and I do not have favorites between the religions at each pole. I can talk equally about the positives and negatives of each, because they are both lacking half of themselves. In the West, everything is put off, there is simply trust and trying to make the most of what you are dealt. In the East, the opposite is true, everything is demanded now. Both, however, fundamentally refuse the beauty of life, both create a war inside a person - how can you be non-violent or peaceful when constantly your very being is at war. All the traditions tell you to separate, to divide yourself, to deny yourself things which are perfectly natural. I am of no tradition, for no tradition I have delved into is in favor of Truth. No tradition accepts your totality as divine, and as such no tradition can be called divine.

I have not read much of your text here, SaltMeister, for the simple reason that quickly glancing I can see you are against anything that is other. This is a symptom of your programming, your conditioning, other is a false perception. Jesus teaches Bhakti and Karma Yoga, and as he says, these are the least burdensome of the yoga's. Certainly, rules and practices are always a burden though, they always repress in some way - you must stop something to make room for this. This is the whole nature of a rule, to cause a repression in you. They could not fix it with techniques or medicine so they must simply tell you there is a future punishment.
 
I have not read much of your text here, SaltMeister, for the simple reason that quickly glancing I can see you are against anything that is other.

I think it's more likely that you have spent so much time studying mysticism that you don't understand the non-mystical. It's all because I started talking about something unfamiliar to you. Instead of responding to my views or arguments you tell me I am the problem.

In the real world, people simply disagree and have different views. This is what puts me off about mystical statements like "you are against anything that is other." Instead of finding a sociological explanation, you make it sound like the problem is beyond anything humans can handle.

It sounds really fancy to make statements like that, as if you are so wise and intelligent to know that a problem is too big to solve. From my perspective, the problem is not too big to solve. I do not believe the problem is too big for me. I think the problem is too big for you. Saying, "you are against anything that is other" is just another way of saying you don't have an answer to my words so you are just going to declare that my words don't really matter. I find it quite rude and patronising.

I didn't ask to be "psycho-analysed." Aren't you asking me to create a war within myself by saying I am against "my other?" If this is the way mysticism works, then mysticism is a whole load of nonsense. You just don't want to discuss my views.

That is why I think you should read what I said. If you're not interested in what I said, just say so.

This is a symptom of your programming, your conditioning, other is a false perception.

If you really bothered to read my post, you would realise I was talking about a practical problem. The Greek philosophical constructs in the NT make Christianity seem spiritual, but I see the underlying problem as the desire for spirituality itself. So many Christians try to be spiritual, but I think the project of spirituality has failed miserably.

You've said quite frequently that you are against materialism. I think to be fair, I should say something about mysticism. To me mysticism is just as big a problem as materialism. So many people want to be spiritual and mystical but they fail miserably. Spirituality and mysticism are a failed project. You said yourself there a many problems in Western and Eastern religions. That's why. They are dangerous and people should stop trying to be spiritual or mystical. They should try something else.

You are here to criticise and I think to be fair, you should accept criticism of mysticism itself.

Jesus teaches Bhakti and Karma Yoga, and as he says, these are the least burdensome of the yoga's.

I haven't seen convincing proof that he taught "yoga" at all. If Jesus taught yoga, Christians today would be doing it right now.

I have never heard of a great teacher or mentor teaching something and then having his followers follow something else. If that happened, then Jesus has to have been a bad teacher. Did Buddhism turn into something other than Buddhism?

I think a better explanation is that Jesus taught a mixture of ideas from different thought systems because the major issue at the time was the wall of separation between Jew and Gentile. Judaism was also being torn apart by sectarianism. Jesus didn't teach yoga. He taught something else. You see yoga because you are a mystic and you identify with concepts similar to your own. I think you have spent so much time studying mysticism that non-mysticism is your "other."
 
I see the underlying problem as the desire for spirituality itself.

Certainly, it is, but what to call the actual pursuit? If I say religion, you automatically think Christian or Muslim or Hindu, some organization. If I say Spirituality you think I reject the material. If I say mysticism, you think I am pursuing some kind of hocus pocus.

Even saying it is a pursuit or a goal is not correct... you cannot strive for something which is already the situation.

To me mysticism is just as big a problem as materialism. So many people want to be spiritual and mystical but they fail miserably. Spirituality and mysticism are a failed project. You said yourself there a many problems in Western and Eastern religions. That's why. They are dangerous and people should stop trying to be spiritual or mystical. They should try something else.

The real problem is the perceptions attached to any of these words... my words are about truth, about realizing it is impossible to separate things and remain truthful. Spirituality is not a failed project because the project has come to a fruition in me, but not all people are intended to awaken in this life. I am trying something else, I am trying for completeness, for experiential confirmations. The problem is that I must talk in terms which are already understood, I cannot make up words and have you comprehend them... If I said "sfa saaag kade", a phrase I have just defined, you cannot know what it means, but my definition points exactly at how to find what you would call God. Is this useful? This is the problem all of those who know have, they must either be quiet or use what they have to work with to express.

You are here to criticise and I think to be fair, you should accept criticism of mysticism itself.

I am not here to criticize at all, but I certainly accept your criticism because I fully understand why you do so.

I haven't seen convincing proof that he taught "yoga" at all. If Jesus taught yoga, Christians today would be doing it right now.

I have told you exactly the type of Yoga Jesus teaches: Bhakti Yoga. Do you not agree that Christianity is about devotion, about loving Jesus? Yoga is not only the positions, or meditation or whatever else you think it is. You clearly do not know what Yoga is, and I don't know what you think it is, but every religion is a form of yoga, it cannot be otherwise because there is a type of yoga that covers every single part of life.

I have never heard of a great teacher or mentor teaching something and then having his followers follow something else. If that happened, then Jesus has to have been a bad teacher. Did Buddhism turn into something other than Buddhism?

Yes, I would say Jesus is a bad teacher, because so many of his seeds have sprouted. There are 2.5 billion Christians today, I presume you yourself are Christian and do not even value spirituality. For me, spirituality is the path to discovering your soul, but Christians are not even curious. Christians blindly accept and it is disgusting to me, it shows utter lack of intelligence.

Certainly, I would say Buddhism is much different from what Buddha taught also... today, Buddhists have all these concepts that Buddha absolutely refused to answer during his life. They have added all these practices and structures which are completely against Buddha - bardo and prayers being two examples which are obvious. There is a lot of noise that has been added to Buddhism down the ages, this is why I say take what is useful and drop the rest - this requires knowing what is useful though, which is the problem.

I think a better explanation is that Jesus taught a mixture of ideas from different thought systems because the major issue at the time was the wall of separation between Jew and Gentile. Judaism was also being torn apart by sectarianism. Jesus didn't teach yoga. He taught something else. You see yoga because you are a mystic and you identify with concepts similar to your own. I think you have spent so much time studying mysticism that non-mysticism is your "other."

Yoga, for me, means unification, union... when a bull is yoked with another, they are now one, they cannot act against each other without pain. What you describe between Jew and Gentile is exactly a type of unification, and he prescribes the pill for this as well: love.

For the mystic, the one, the energy that science is defining as quanta, is simply love. We are all dense pockets of love, and the more we love the greater our capacity for it. All forms of yoga are towards the realization of this, the flowering of Buddhism is referred to as compassion, but the actual word is "mette", which can be called simply love as well. The whole point of religion is to teach overflowing love, this is our reason for being and how we have come into being. Everything is a manifestation of love, there is nothing esle. If the person can become love, how can they not be God? The Bible itself tells you God is love, what is different?

When your every action is motivated purely by love, what is the necessity for rules? Rules exist because most do not love, how can a lover act against the beloved? Ultimately, there is only love, but the ego - love of the "I" - creates an ability to hate, gives us the ability to favor "I" over "you". Mysticism is nothing but the facilitation of proof that all is only one, if all is one then it is ok to love the true "I" completely, but now there cannot be any "other".

Enlightenment (heaven, paradise, moksha, nirvana) merely means the ability to never leave truth, never forget truth. This is immortality, this is eternal life, knowing you are not separate from the whole, how can you die? Even the Universe itself is not the Ultimate, the Universe will die one day just as all other manifestations, but we can experience the Ultimate. This proof relieves us of fear, of discomfort and suffering, all that is must be so why view it negatively? Sometimes, we must fight for our freedom, but if that is not threatened, why create more negativity?
 
Mette, more correctly, describes an unconditional love, an indirect type of love. That is why often - for instance in Sufism - you are told to worship the whole, if you love the whole, how can you hate something within it? When love is attached to something in particular, it is quick to transform into obsession or manipulation. When love is directed, we do not wish to lose the person, jealousy erupts in us if we think we will. This is a disgusting form of love, but still love is what is taught... a complete love, a love for existence and simply for being. The love that erupts from knowledge of why you are created, the gratitude, all of this... it is not possible for a higher experience.

The problem with religion is that always the love is directed. You feel the need to defend the object of that love, and this is how wars occur. Somehow, we have decided that because of our love, we must defend the object above all others. It is quite like the love for a woman, we will defend her against men that we feel might get her attention. When you cultivate a love which is not attached to something, how can you have this kind of hate? Every religion has evidence of this change towards something disgusting - this is what I speak against. The terms in the East are most useful because their terminology is most refined in this direction, I have tried to use the corresponding words of Jesus and it becomes disputable. I am not interested in disputing, so I use words that cannot be disputed.

When this pure love occurs, it is the ultimate bliss - the state of being blessed - but there is no other way to know it.
 
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