Is Christianity anti-women?

[Waymarker]

On the one hand, there are plenty of women vicars of Dibley around nowadays, yet sections of the male clergy are strongly opposed to women vicars, so I thought I'd open this thread for discussion.
Are the christian male clergy being old fuddy-duddies or what?
What do other faiths think of women, and do they have women priests?

 

[IowaGuy]

Is Christianity anti-women?

Have you actually read the bible??? I can't think of too many books that are more anti-women than the bible. Women basically created to serve man, property of man. And they better not cheat on their husbands or risk being burned/killed. Oh, and if they're raped only costs the rapist 50 sheckles to make her his wife!

Why any woman would put her faith in this book is beyond me...

 

[IowaGuy]

OK, I'm done venting now

Just frustrates me sometimes the way women were treated back in the day of the Old Testament. And sometimes, even in today's society, the bible is used to justify putting down women, in addition to gays/lesbians.

 

[Waymarker]

..I can't think of too many books that are more anti-women than the bible...

I can't see it myself..
There have always been special women in the Bible such as Miriam who saved her baby brother Moses from death when she was just a child;
Deborah, prophetess, judge and military leader;
Huldah who taught at the college in Jerusalem.;
Rahab the prostitute who sheltered the two fugitive Israelis,
The evangelist Philip had four daughters who were prophetesses;
The early Christian sect in Phrygia was led by Montanus and two prophetesses, Priscilla and Maximilla..

And Paul paid glowing tributes to women -
"I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a servant of the church in Cenchrea..she has been a great help to many people, including me..
Greet Priscilla , my fellow worker in Christ Jesus, she risked her life for me.
Greet Mary, who worked very hard for you..
Greet Tryphena and Tryphosa and Persis, those women who work hard in the Lord.
Greet Rufus, chosen in the Lord, and his mother, who has been a mother to me, too.
Greet Julia.." (Romans ch 16)
And he reminds us -
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus" (Galatians 3:28 )
And even Jesus said to the snooty priests-
"The prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you" (Matt 21:31)

And warned that-
"..anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart" (Matt 5:28 )

Elsewhere too the Bible speaks for women's rights -
"Control yourselves honourably, not in lust like the heathens" (1 Thess 4:4/5)
"Enjoy life with your wife, whom you love.." (Ecc 9:9)
　
Jesus spent a terrible long night before his death,unable to sleep and racked with loneliness as his disciples fell asleep,
But next day on the cross, as he slipped into death his tired pain-filled eyes saw a host of loyal women who'd stuck with him to the end-
"Jesus cried out with a loud voice, and breathed his last. There were also women looking on from afar, among whom were Mary Magdalene and Salome, who followed him and ministered to him when he was in Galilee, and many other women who came up with him to Jerusalem" (Mark 15:37)

They gave him the last womanly comfort they could by making sure he never died alone..

 

[bob x]

Yeah, IowaGuy, I'm more inclined to Waymarker's view here (although it is well known here that I am rather hostile to Abrahamic religions). If you haven't read many more books that are more hostile to women than the Old Testament, that is just because you haven't read many texts from the Bronze Age. It was a harsh time, when survival depended on keeping 90% of the population engaged in back-breaking agricultural labor full-time, and keeping the population even steady, let alone growing, despite all the plagues and famines and wars depended on compulsory procreation. Women were expected to be pregnant as often as possible and devote all their time to attending the children; it was not much better for most males, who were expected to keep their place as humble laborers even if they were not overtly in a condition of slavery. Within its context, the Bible was actually progressive: that was a low bar, to be sure, but it is not helpful to back-project our moral expectations onto a very different time.

 

[IowaGuy]

yet sections of the male clergy are strongly opposed to women vicars

Do they use any scripture to support their view?

Maybe I was exaggerating a bit in my earlier post but still, to me, the bible seems to put women in a submissive role in comparison to men: don't speak in church, submit to your husband, killed for cheating, obey your husband, can't teach a man. The most pertinent verses that I can think of are 1 Corinthians chapter 14, 1 Corinthians 11, Timothy 2:11, Ephesians chapter 5, Deuteronomy chapter 22, Genesis 3:16, Titus 2:3, 1 Peter chapter 3.

The point I was trying to make is that, even though some of the Old Testament verses are dismissed by Christians as from "a very different time," some of the scripture seems to still creep into modern religious viewpoints. Sure there are "special women" in the bible, but I don't take away many teachings of equality of the sexes; time & again men are portrayed as superior to women in the bible (especially in a husband/wife context).

My father-in-law's Lutheran church doesn't permit women to be elders. Many churches do not permit women to be pastors. As you mention, some clergy are opposed to women vicars.

So when you ask "Is Christianity Anti-women," my answer is, yes. And it seems to me that some of that bias/discrimination is justified by biblical scripture. After all, if one is arguing against women pastors or elders or vicars in their church they can (and do) justify with 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."

To me it sounds like the "fuddy-duddy" male clergy that you mention are just following the bible?

 

[seattlegal]

Do they use any scripture to support their view?

Maybe I was exaggerating a bit in my earlier post but still, to me, the bible seems to put women in a submissive role in comparison to men: don't speak in church, submit to your husband, killed for cheating, obey your husband, can't teach a man. The most pertinent verses that I can think of are 1 Corinthians chapter 14, 1 Corinthians 11, Timothy 2:11, Ephesians chapter 5, Deuteronomy chapter 22, Genesis 3:16, Titus 2:3, 1 Peter chapter 3.

The point I was trying to make is that, even though some of the Old Testament verses are dismissed by Christians as from "a very different time," some of the scripture seems to still creep into modern religious viewpoints. Sure there are "special women" in the bible, but I don't take away many teachings of equality of the sexes; time & again men are portrayed as superior to women in the bible (especially in a husband/wife context).

My father-in-law's Lutheran church doesn't permit women to be elders. Many churches do not permit women to be pastors. As you mention, some clergy are opposed to women vicars.

So when you ask "Is Christianity Anti-women," my answer is, yes. And it seems to me that some of that bias/discrimination is justified by biblical scripture. After all, if one is arguing against women pastors or elders or vicars in their church they can (and do) justify with 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."

To me it sounds like the "fuddy-duddy" male clergy that you mention are just following the bible?

Hmm, could it possibly be that the laws Paul was referring to were the Greek Hellenistic civil and cultural laws? The Greeks were notoriously anti-woman.

 

[Nick the Pilot]

In Genesis, God puts a curse on all women. Now that's being anti-women.

 

[bananabrain]

I can't think of too many books that are more anti-women than the bible.

reading a translation of the written bible alone is like reading the "cliff notes" if they had been written by someone who hadn't actually understood the book. the written text is not meant to be used in isolation. the bible (and here i am referring to what you would call the "old testament", my opinion of the rest is immaterial) is hardly anti-marriage, yet there is nothing in it which actually tells you to get married, let alone how to, yet there is a reasonably clear procedure for how to get divorced. however, both lack vast amounts of detail. this detail is to be found in the Oral Law that supplements the Written Law that you are seeing in the bible - the case law, the precedents, the interpretations - all that is missing from what you are reading. of course you're going to come back with a jaundiced view.

Women basically created to serve man, property of man.

no - women are formed 'EZeR KeNeGhDO, normally translated as "helpmeet", but in fact meaning "a help that opposes". this is not a subsidiary, but an equal, balancing position. the "curse" that is spoken of is in fact the curse of sexual need, which was not required in the garden in the way it is outside, for security and reproduction, satisfaction, and stress relief - a pretty rubbish curse, if you ask me. before that, sex is about private enjoyment and personal pleasure; it is not truly a joint, human undertaking. if you fail to understand what is actually going on in the garden of eden, you fail to understand some very basic things about how we jews understand what you refer to as the "bible". the same applies to the errors of christianity with regard to text, sex and for all i know sexy texts!

And they better not cheat on their husbands or risk being burned/killed.

the penalty for adultery applies to both parties - and if you look at the provisions of the actual law, it is in fact effectively impossible to get a capital prosecution; the severity of the penalty indicates the severity of the crime; it is a tariff, not a code.

Oh, and if they're raped only costs the rapist 50 sheckles to make her his wife!

you completely fail to understand this text. may i point you to this previous discussion of exactly this issue?

http://www.interfaith.org/forum/is-it-kool-to-rape-3592.html

if you have further questions that aren't answered in that discussion, i'll happily address them here.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[IowaGuy]

reading a translation of the written bible alone is like reading the "cliff notes" if they had been written by someone who hadn't actually understood the book.

That may be the Jewish view but many Christian demonimations (besides perhaps the Mormans & Catholics) view the Bible (OT and NT) as the end all and be-all of holy books. My church leaders (Southern Baptist) never referenced any other holy books or supplemental literature/oral teachings in 18 years of the church services I attended. In fact, other "holy" books were looked down upon as cult-like (i.e. Book of Mormon, Catholic/orthodox apocrypha)

I agree things can have different meanings when taken out of context (like the 50 schekel passage, which presumably was an old law that kept raped women from becoming prostitues since their chance for marriage was slim thereafter).

If Christianity/the bible is not anti-women, how do you justify:

1 Corinthians 14:34-35 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."

If that is the word of God or inspired by God it sure sounds sexist and anti-women to me; I would certainly not teach such garbage to my daughter.

Or can Christians/Jews just ignore whatever old testament teachings they don't agree with while quoting other scripture from the same book as the foundation of their beliefs?

 

[Waymarker]

If Christianity/the bible is not anti-women, how do you justify:

1 Corinthians 14:34-35 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."?

As always, we have to take the Bible in context.
Firstly in my post #4 above, Paul goes on and on about how women have helped him, and how they're equal to men ("male and female...you are all one in Christ"), so in context when he tells chatterboxes to clam up in the early churches, we know he's simply laying down some ground rules to straighten out their mistaken belief that the church was some kind of drop-in centre for gossip and chat..

Sure, some fuddy-duddy churches today look down on women, so it's up to the congregation to vote with their feet and simply walk out if they disagree with any churches ruling male hierarchy.

As for harsh anti-women passages in the Old T, Jesus trashed that harshness, a classic example being when he told a fundy mob to clear off when they wanted to stone an adulteress to death under the Old T laws.
(Sorry if i've already posted this pic below in another thread, I visit so many internet forums I lose track)

 

[Snoopy]

On the one hand, there are plenty of women vicars of Dibley around nowadays, yet sections of the male clergy are strongly opposed to women vicars, so I thought I'd open this thread for discussion.
Are the christian male clergy being old fuddy-duddies or what?
What do other faiths think of women, and do they have women priests?

The Catholic Church seems to focus on Mary as much as, if not more, than Jesus.

I personally know of a devout practising CoE woman who is vehemently opposed to female vicars.

There have always been male and female Buddhist monks and nuns. Although the Buddha gave advice to householders on domestic living, along with a myriad other topics in his 45 years of teaching, the thrust of the Buddha Dharma is not concerned with gender roles.

 

[Nick the Pilot]

"...the thrust of the Buddha Dharma is not concerned with gender roles."

--> I am surprised you would say that. Most Buddhist traditions today are extrememly male-oriented and discriminate against women.

 

[Snoopy]

"...the thrust of the Buddha Dharma is not concerned with gender roles."

--> I am surprised you would say that. Most Buddhist traditions today are extrememly male-oriented and discriminate against women.

As you quoted, Nick, I said Buddha Dharma.

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Ah, I see, you are saying the dharma, not the various sanghas, is unconcerned with gender roles? I agree, the dharma is not concerned with gender roles, but has resulted in sanghas that are very much negatively affected by gender roles.

 

[bob x]

Ah, I see, you are saying the dharma, not the various sanghas, is unconcerned with gender roles? I agree, the dharma is not concerned with gender roles, but has resulted in sanghas that are very much negatively affected by gender roles.

Again, I would not say that it is the "dharma" that has resulted in sanghas with severe gender discrimination, but the context of Asian societies, which grew up from the same harsh conditions as the Abrahamic religions, a context in which human liberty in general just was not very feasible.

 

[Waymarker]

Wait! I feel one of my stories coming on! This is a little tale i've woven around an incident in John chapter 4 involving a woman we'll call Leonora, to show how women have always had a central position in the Bible..

LEONORA

Leonora had had a rough life. A string of lovers had treated her bad, and now she'd ended up with another here in this remote village in old Samaria miles from anywhere, going out of her skull with boredom and feeling as if life was passing her by.
Then her latest fancy man shouted from the other room telling her to go get some water,so she trudged wearily down the road in the sweltering heat to the well.

A few travellers who she'd never seen before were sitting there in the shade of the trees looking tired, yet good-humouredly talking among themselves, and one of them smiled and asked her in a Galileean accent to draw some water for them.
She was surprised that a Jew would talk to a Samaritan , but he chatted a bit more with her about "living water" and other matters, and about her poor track record with men who used her like a doormat.

She told him how she yearned for the bright lights of Jerusalem where things happened and where it said in the ancient scriptures the Messiah would appear, though if and when that would be, nobody knew.

She said she liked to dream what he'd be like, a warrior king maybe, in bright silver armour riding a proud white horse, and that he'd explain everything to the people once and for all.
"Huh! i'll never see the Messiah stuck out here" she said as a tear rolled down her cheek, "when i die that's it, nobody'll remember me or even know i existed, and he wouldn't want to talk to somebody like me anyway..".

The man gently brushed away her tear with his fingertips, lifted her chin, gazed straight into her eyes and softly replied with a smile:- "I'm him. He's talking to you now.."
And the woman in that tiny remote village long ago will be remembered in the Bible until the end of time..

-----------------------------------------------------------------

"The woman said, "I know that Messiah" (called Christ) is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us."
Then Jesus declared, "I who speak to you am he." (John 4:26)

 

[Snoopy]

Again, I would not say that it is the "dharma" that has resulted in sanghas with severe gender discrimination, but the context of Asian societies, which grew up from the same harsh conditions as the Abrahamic religions, a context in which human liberty in general just was not very feasible.

Entirely agree. Unfortunately by the same token it is cultural reasons that underlie the sex scandals that have previously occured in the West; nothing to do with the Buddha Dharma.

 

[seattlegal]

As always, we have to take the Bible in context.
Firstly in my post #4 above, Paul goes on and on about how women have helped him, and how they're equal to men ("male and female...you are all one in Christ"), so in context when he tells chatterboxes to clam up in the early churches, we know he's simply laying down some ground rules to straighten out their mistaken belief that the church was some kind of drop-in centre for gossip and chat..

Sure, some fuddy-duddy churches today look down on women, so it's up to the congregation to vote with their feet and simply walk out if they disagree with any churches ruling male hierarchy.

As for harsh anti-women passages in the Old T, Jesus trashed that harshness, a classic example being when he told a fundy mob to clear off when they wanted to stone an adulteress to death under the Old T laws.

Small point here: the mob wasn't following the OT law. The OT law reads:

Lev 20:10
10 If a man commits adultery with a married woman—if he commits adultery with his neighbor's wife—both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.
​

The passage in John 8 reads:

2 At dawn He went to the temple complex again, and all the people were coming to Him. He sat down and began to teach them. 3 Then the scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman caught in adultery, making her stand in the center. 4 "Teacher," they said to Him, "this woman was caught in the act of committing adultery. 5 In the law Moses commanded us to stone such women. So what do You say?" 6 They asked this to trap Him, in order that they might have evidence to accuse Him.
Jesus stooped down and started writing on the ground with His finger. 7 When they persisted in questioning Him, He stood up and said to them, "The one without sin among you should be the first to throw a stone at her."
8 Then He stooped down again and continued writing on the ground. 9 When they heard this, they left one by one, starting with the older men. Only He was left, with the woman in the center. 10 When Jesus stood up, He said to her, " Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"
11 "No one, Lord," she answered.
"Neither do I condemn you," said Jesus. "Go, and from now on do not sin any more."​

You would think that the scribes would know the law--that both the man and the woman were to be put to death--not just the woman. I'm wondering if the writing Jesus was doing on the ground was the law from Leviticus? The scripture from John said they did this to trap him.

 

[wil]

Is not the story of the woman at the well one of the sections of scripture that has been deemed an add, not found in any of the oldest texts?