Christian Fundamentalist Terrorist in Oslo

[NiceCupOfTea]

well the truth will come out.

but people will still believe the lies that they cherish.

 

[Bhaktajan II]

But why shout?

The logistic are astonding.

IE: Everytime a child is murdered the victim's survivors are sent a bill.

The murderer is shuffled off ---and the survivors are encouraged to grow up and be a good tax-paying citisen.

One day 95% of the populace will be incarcerated and the 5% free be hard pressed to raise taxes to pay for the up-keep of the incarcerated.

What is the algorythm for percentage of incarcerated to free law abiding non-mafiosi?

It amazes me that after the horrors of Human life witnessed . . . most people simply want to return to a Festive Party somewhere and dance the night away.

There should be a stopage world-wide ---as an act of emass penance ---when such godly events occur ---rather then leaving such facts of life to only the professional insurance companies' annuity brokers' ledgers.

The vital-statictics of life should serve humanity as learning lessons ---not just as macabe entertainment headliners.

 

[Paladin]

The vital-statictics of life should serve humanity as learning lessons ---not just as macabe entertainment headliners

Yes. Precisely. That is why it is so important to zero in on the kind of thinking, the kind of ideology that spawns these kinds of horrors. Lapsing into denial, blaming of others doesn't solve anything nor does it promote the understanding that can prevent this kind of tragedy.
The far right wing of Christianity, the far right wing of Islam, rampant ethnocentricity, theocentric and egocentric posturing is what caused this. To deny it is to repeat it and those that walk away or pretend it wasn't because of what caused it are just as guilty as the vermin who perpetrate these horrors upon mankind.

 

[Bhaktajan II]

To deny it is to repeat it and those that walk away or pretend it wasn't because of what caused it are just as guilty as the vermin who perpetrate these horrors upon mankind.

Is this the first Mass-murderer ever known?

Now the only question will be Who will protray him when the movie is made.

Yes, we interrogate him and then we should serve-him up a painfull execution ---instead we subsidise his imprisonment with the wealth and hard earned pay of the innocent masses and the victims to.

 

[Amica]

Like any act of terrorism, this one is an awful one as well. Horrible.

If I were the authorities, I would keep a close eye on the Serb immigrants (if there are any) in Norway. Why do I say this? Knowing the history of my country (Bosnia) and understanding the claims Serb nationalists make often against Balkan Muslims, I think this guy was influenced by the Serb nationalist ideology. He quoted that "Serbs were defenders of Europe against Islam." Why can't it be the Greeks, or Bulgarians, or someone? Why Serbs?
The "defenders against Islam" is the Serb nationalists' main theme, because they believe that five something centuries ago, the Bosnians did not help them enough in fight against the Otttoman Empire during the battle of Kosovo. History tells us that the reason why Bosnian Christians did not help the Serbs in that fight was because for centuries prior Serbs and Hungarians called upon the various Popes for Crusades against the Bosnian Church, until the Church was exterminated.

But, that is beside the point. The facts are that Serbian nationalists, I suspect, were feeding this guy the story of "legendary Serb fight for Christian Europe" in Kosovo. I would keep an eye on them. At this time, the ultra Serb nationalists are many under many disguises. One group that is openly active is Ravnogorski Chetnick Movement and also Obraz movement.

Something to think about.

 

[Amica]

Bhaktajan--

If you look at most of the world terrorists, they hardly can be considered true religious people, regardless of what they claim. For example, the terrorists of 9/11 were not religous as based on their behaviors (i.e. drinking alcohol, having sexual relationships before marriage, going to strip clubs--all against authentic islamic beliefs).

I think that people love to generalize. They would quickly blame religion for the individual actions of some of the religion's followers. This is what Muslims have been trying to tell the world for a decade now, but hardly anyone listens: terrorists are minority and good people are in higher numbers.

 

[Lunitik]

I see here convoluted rationale.

He was not found to be a religous Christian!

He is a Demon first-class.

Such demons cause Chaos.

Chaos is the hallmark of demonic actions.

Any attempt to surmise he was motivated by Christian Ethos is simply an attempt at mis-information ---for ulterior movtives that I do not know of.

Approach any white power movement and tell me this is a one off case, that this man is not displaying a type of Christian believe system. I can say nothing more to you, but just go and look. Find a skin head, find an Aryan Brotherhood member, a KKK member, ask them about Jesus - their faces will light up.

 

[Lunitik]

Bhaktajan--

If you look at most of the world terrorists, they hardly can be considered true religious people, regardless of what they claim. For example, the terrorists of 9/11 were not religous as based on their behaviors (i.e. drinking alcohol, having sexual relationships before marriage, going to strip clubs--all against authentic islamic beliefs).

I think that people love to generalize. They would quickly blame religion for the individual actions of some of the religion's followers. This is what Muslims have been trying to tell the world for a decade now, but hardly anyone listens: terrorists are minority and good people are in higher numbers.

I think that people merely like to segregate, distance from others, but in reality this has happened within a given faith that you are helping to propagate - that means you are helping their future recruiting endeavors because you have already done the hard bit. They already believe in the Bible, now all these men have to do is show the parts that justify their view. It is no different in any hate group, no matter religion or belief system.

These are the ramifications of group-think - you have avoided it, fine, I bet this mans parents avoided it also. I bet they disagreed with such actions vahemently, yet they have created a son that has killed about 100 people for the belief they taught him, only pointing out something the parents didn't see in it.

 

[Saltmeister]

Every Christian claims to be a true Christian.
If we are balanced in news we should describe Terrorists who claim to be Christian as "Christian Terrorists."

A person may claim to be Christian, but his views can still be wrong. If I must call him Christian, then I must also call him a heretic.

Where do you think these beliefs have come from? It is funny that his concerns match exactly with the Christians in places like Arizona... a place I live in and know to be disgusting, but very much a Christian movement. In America, the atheists are against the immigration laws, but if you watch Christian television, they are all for it. I don't know where the Christians get it from, but they are very separatist. I have also seen people throwing bottles and spitting on a local mosque, and plenty of racism in general here... it is humorous when I see Christians claiming this doesn't happen in their faith, or tries to justify them as simply not good Christians - especially when you consider they would say the same about those that seek peace. Groups like the Aryan Brotherhood and Klu Klux Klan are very much Christian, as well as Skin Heads and the like - in fact, most such groups REQUIRE you be protestant.

It truly is disgusting when you open your eyes and look at the situation - it is at least as bad as Muslim extremists, they just aren't reported because it gives Christianity a bad name. Indeed, Jesus has said much about not coming to bring peace but to divide the world... these people are just showing us the ramifications of those words.

Nationalism does not align with the true spirit of Christianity. This guy is worried about the state of his country. He is worried about foreigners invading and infiltrating his country. Christianity is about detaching yourself from the world so that you may become part of the kingdom of heaven. You can never completely detach yourself from the world. However, to become attached to a particular culture and to fear infiltration and the destruction of the world most familiar to you by foreigners is not a very "spiritual" way of thinking.

What I find troubling is the very idea that what people consider "Christianity" is something that manifests itself in the entrenched culture, along with the established social and political system backed by armed forces. This is what nationalism is about.

Some of the people who call themselves "Christian" are talking about the entrenched social and political system.

The first Christians were not part of an entrenched social and political system. They were a minority group, a group that owed loyalty to something distinct from the established social and political order. The original Christians were a persecuted group pushed to the brink of survival.

This changed when the Roman Emperor Constantine declared Christianity the state religion of the Roman Empire. This was when Christianity became corrupted. Christianity ceased to be a survival religion. It became a religion of nationalism and imperialism and this was how it became corrupted. "Christians" became the dominant group in society and they often abused their status.

I consider nationalism and imperialism a form of idolatry. Pardon me for using that word (idolatry), but I think I need to use that word just to show how sick I think nationalistic and imperialistic Christianity is. I actually consider it to be an abomination. The "Mother of Harlots" in the Book of Revelation is probably a reference to this corrupted version of Christianity. Most strains of Christianity today descends from this corrupted version of Christianity.

The Book of Hosea depicts Israel and Judah as like a cheating wife that turned to worshipping other gods. The Mother of Harlots is a similar theme, but rather than being about Israel, it is about Christianity. Christianity today is like a big family of harlots.

When Christianity became entangled with the Empire of Rome and its associated nationalism and imperialism, it was like Christianity fornicating and committing adultery. The church as you probably know is supposed to be the "bride of Christ," just like Israel was depicted as an unfaithful wife when the Jews started worshipping other gods.

To think that Christians would became entangled in Roman nationalism and imperialism is just ......... well it just sickens me. I am appalled at how Christians have become entangled with it for so long.

I hate it when people say "my country is Christian." No, a country or government can never be Christian, even if all its ministers, the executive and legislative branches consist entirely of Christians. Only individuals can be Christian. Only you the person can be Christian. A Christian is anyone who desires a place in the kingdom of heaven, not a person who desires to preserve national or state power.

Anyone who says they want to preserve the "power of Christianity" in their country or society is like one of the harlots in the Book of Revelation. In their mind, Christianity depends on state and national power. It is a cowardly attitude to require Christianity to be protected by a government or army. It is a cowardly attitude to be fearful of and oppose groups that might threaten the "protective system" of a culture and society where "Christian ideas" are entrenched.

This is the view that this Norwegian man takes. Going back to the metaphor of an unfaithful bride, Christianity can be thought of as like a woman, a very vulnerable woman (a princess in the tower) who constantly finds herself in unpleasant situations and hopes that one day some knight-in-shining armour comes to save and rescue her.

1,700 years ago, this knight-in-shining armour came in the form of the power of Rome. For some 300 years Christians endured persecution by the Romans. In other words, this "knight" was formerly abusive to the "princess."

All of a sudden, the knight changes his mind. The princess seems quite resilient in the face of persecution (ie. abuse) and he falls in love with her. The princess is swept off her feet, blown away by the offer of protection.

Unfortunately, the princess was already bethrothed to another (you know who -- Jesus). By sleeping with Rome, the church breaks its vows of chastity and starts engaging in the idolatry of nationalism and imperialism. It persecutes Jews, Muslims and reformers (Revelation 17:6) and is thus "drunk with the blood of the saints." Entanglement with nationalism and imperialism is what it means by the harlot committing adultery with the kings of the earth (Revelation 17:2).

Christianity has been entangled with national and state power for some 1,700 years and this Norwegian man is right in the middle of it. That's not all. According to this article, he was a Freemason:

Terrorist proclaimed himself 'Darwinian,' not 'Christian'

From what I have read, Masonry has links with the Illuminati and the most hardcore Masons and Illuminati are in the practice of manipulating or desiring to manipulate world events. Christians' desire for their religion to become entangled with national and state power is a recurring and persistent phenomenon in the West and the Illuminati take advantage of these yearnings.

It is therefore not surprising that a Freemason would harbour the kind of views regarding Islam and immigration as this Norwegian man has shown. In past generations and decades, Freemasonry has been seen as a network of "evil cabals" bent on world domination. Maybe there is some truth to that theory. Freemasonry, like the Illuminati system, is driven by symbolism and this symbolism may be a secret code for world domination.

This Freemason Norwegian man is probably angry because he sees that the Illuminati-driven Western project of world domination is failing. What is surprising to me though, is that this man would kill some 80-90 people and engage in violence rather than choosing a more secretive path as other Freemasons would have done. How could he not see the big picture? Covert scheming is usually more successful than a direct and violent confrontation. What was he thinking? He has to be insane.

Illuminati-Freemason Mind Controled Slave Anders Behring Breivik Identified As Suspect In Norway Shooting|Truth Frequency News
The Catholic Knight: BREAKING: Oslo Terrorist is a Freemason

 

[Lunitik]

Saltmeister: Sorry, but I simply disagree.

This man has pointed to the way of things in the 50's just as racist Americans do. He talks about purifying his country, not about the state of it. If there is only white Christians in his country but the situation is the same, do you think his stance would change?

I certainly think it would, when this man states that Europeans should become stronger, that Islam is the enemy, that multiculturalism is treacherous, that Christendom must not become weak, then you simply cannot say he means anything else about purity, you just can't. He is essentially calling for a Christian Al Jazeer from my vantage.

The Bible states things like "I am the way, the truth, the light; no one comes to the father except by me", automatically there is superiority - this is the only truth, obey us! Things like "do not think I have come to bring peace, families and nations will be divided by me" do not help the cases of most Christian apologizers either. Couple this with the story of Cain, and we quickly come to recognize where their motivations stem. Black is evil, white is good, it is so clear to them. Black people must be the ancestors of Cain, this must be the curse manifest. Light is divine, white is the lightest form of man. Darkness is evil, black is the darkest form of man. It must mean that white has been forgiven by God, but black still deserves his wrath, we are merely doing God's will! Such is their propaganda and manipulation of scripture.

Jesus' own actions justify such anger as these people feel, he whips people in the Temple, he cusses at a fig tree, these are not the actions of a peaceful man. He is only peaceful when you agree and abide by him - just as the God in the Torah is only interested in those which abide by him, there is no difference.

 

[Saltmeister]

Why, then, is the Old Testament still included in the Christian Bible? Why has Jesus said "I do not come to change the law, but to confirm it"?

The reason why we do not adhere to the laws of the Torah is not as many Christians often claim that the New Testament has replaced the Old Testament (Replacement Theology), but because the vast majority of Christians are Gentiles. Gentiles do not have to adhere to the laws of the Torah. Anyone who wants to follow the laws of the Torah should go and consult a rabbi to receive instruction and not try to blindly follow something that is incomplete (the written Torah).

Because I have little desire to adhere to the Torah, I won't be consulting a rabbi on this matter in the near future. I don't see other Christians consulting rabbis about the "Old Testament" so why should I?

The other thing about the Torah is that it is about a covenant between a whole nation and God. The Torah is about honouring an ancient promise between that nation and God. The ancestors of all Gentiles collectively did not make a promise with God (apart from the one with Noah). Christians are not part of the ancient promise associated with the Torah.

I don't wake up each day knowing (or believing) that my ancestors made a promise before God that they and all their descendants were to follow a set of commandments.

An ancient promise can be a powerful motivation, without which the justification becomes somewhat arbitrary (ie. morality and justice). This is why Christians can't agree on the issue. It's because they don't realise that the ancient commandments weren't just thrown out there. A promise (covenant) was made and that is why they were important.

Credit however, must be given to Muslims and Christians for adhering to commandments that are not associated with a covenant. It is much harder to be motivated to do something without a covenant because the psychological conditioning isn't there.

 

[Lunitik]

Indeed, Israel means "He who strives with God", it is not intended as a nation - although a nation was promised, it did not yet have a name. The Land of Israel - a country for those who strive with God. Why must they strive? Look at all the suffering the Jews have gone through, this is their reward? This is how God treats his favored people? I do not comprehend their loyalty, but this is how crowd-think works, it isn't rational. This statement, that because you are Jew you are blessed, this feeds the ego which is the opposite of spirituality. They will do anything to uphold their tradition merely on these grounds, they are blessed, what can happen? Children should be taught to question everything so this kind of situation stops, seek truth - there are spiritual miracles - but do not fall into ego traps.

 

[Lunitik]

Also, I should point out that it is Rome which chose what went into the Christian canon. Much was thrown away, and the common thread in that which was discarded is that it is a threat to Rome's ability to brain wash - how can you brain wash a liberated man, how can you justify oppressing women when one has contributed to the Bible itself? It is all very sick when you read through the apocrypha and ask yourself why each book is not in the modern canon! My only conclusion is that Christians must not actually be reading the Bible, or their version has been censored. How can you follow something so disgusting merely because it has a couple beautiful statements?

It is not Jesus I have a problem with, overall, if we read all works attributed to his legacy, he is a beautiful man. What the Christians have created makes me sick, however, they focus on the most irrelevant part of his scripture and leave out anything which might actually result in spiritual growth. I can find a total of maybe 25 verses that are legitimately meaningful, and 15 are consecutive. I need only open the final book, or any random page in the Old Testament to see its grossness though.

 

[Lunitik]

I am not singling Christianity out, either, all religious organizations are the same. Their whole focus is to create carbon copies, any differentiation is not permitted. Individuality makes the priests job more complicated, you begin to have to tailor each statement to that person. If the priest allows you to draw unique conclusions, you might come to a greater truth than him - how will he put food on his family table then?

No, do not think for yourself, fear fear fear, this is much easier. Make sure death is the first thing people consider when they wake up and the last when they go to bed, remind them that even God in human form has died as often as possible and this fear can be used to ensure there are less questions. Just follow Jesus, do as he does and believe my interpretation of him, you will be safe. If this life is horrible, it is fine, I have created the problem but I also promise bliss when you die - death is forever, it is worth it. If you do keep questioning me, you will have an eternity of punishment, keep up that fear. You cannot escape the cross, the Bible is the modern cross, but please don't figure this out, that is blasphemy. Really, it is just another case of creating an problem so you can solve it. This is the whole basis of the desert religions, they invented guilt through teaching sin and now you need saving - here is the pill, now do as I say.

My words can be just as harsh towards any tradition though, it is just that Christianity is the most discussed on this board. There are 2.5 billion Christians, so it is by far the biggest problem today.

 

[Lunitik]

You cannot reach your own truth by studying someone else's, it just doesn't work that way.

 

[Saltmeister]

Saltmeister: Sorry, but I simply disagree.

Having read your post, I cannot see where the disagreement is. I talked about nationalism and imperialism and how this corrupted Christianity and how Christians became addicted to social domination. You talked about race and that is something else altogether.

that Christendom must not become weak.

That is what I was talking about, the desire for Christendom to be strong. Christians became addicted to social domination, they became addicted to national and state power designed specifically to protect them. The desire for this power is the kind of phenomenon alluded to in the Book of Revelation where the harlot commits adultery with the kings of the earth.

The Bible states things like "I am the way, the truth, the light; no one comes to the father except by me", automatically there is superiority. This is the only truth, obey us!

That statement by Jesus has always been open to interpretation. Most Christians however, think that just because these words can be found in the New Testament that it automatically means that anyone who promotes or defends the New Testament is a follower of "the way."

I think the "truth" is that Jesus was probably talking about something more like Jewish halakha, because in Jesus' day there were many teachers going around telling people that their "way" was the "the way" to follow Jewish Law. Because the vast majority of today's Christians do not follow Jewish Law, whether directly or through some kind of "halakha," most of us who claim to be Christians aren't "true Christians."

That however, wouldn't be a very politically correct statement. There are billions of people claiming to be Christian and it would be a great injustice to take the label "Christian" away from them.

Their views regarding Christianity would form part of a huge spectrum, from people fitting your descriptions to people who see Jesus as proposing just one approach to Jewish Law.

In the absence of dialogue and debate, all these views could legitimately be seen as "Christianities." At the beginning when there is no dialogue and debate, they would all be equally valid. Through debate, some would begin to demonstrate stronger claims and no longer be equal.

To me Christianity is the abstraction of what emerges from the New Testament Canon and all these various "manifestations" are just particular implementations of Christianity. Each manifestation or implementation has its strengths and weaknesses and I have my own reasons for saying that what you are describing is a pretty heretical manifestation of Christianity.

Things like "do not think I have come to bring peace, families and nations will be divided by me" do not help the cases of most Christian apologizers either.

Jesus' own actions justify such anger as these people feel, he whips people in the Temple, he cusses at a fig tree, these are not the actions of a peaceful man. He is only peaceful when you agree and abide by him

Again, my point was that nationalism and imperialism was a deviation from the purer form of Christianity that existed before Constantine. I didn't say anything about not being divisive and actually by declaring nationalistic and imperialistic Christianity as a form of idolatry, that was a pretty divisive statement. Idolatry is unholy and therefore nationalistic and imperialistic Christianity is something unholy. Considering what it has done in the last 1,700 years, I think I have good reason to consider it unholy.

Even if you were to insist that this is still Christianity, that anything associated with the New Testament Canon is still Christianity, even something as remote as someone mentioning a single isolated concept that is found in the NT, I would still have something to say about it to distinguish myself from what I consider revolting. What I say about it therefore is that I consider this kind of "Christianity" -- if we even have to call it Christianity -- as a corrupted and heretical form of Christianity.

Because Christianity has been corrupted for some 1,700 years with nationalism and imperialism, I have to say we've been heretics for that long.

Couple this with the story of Cain, and we quickly come to recognize where their motivations stem. Black is evil, white is good, it is so clear to them. Black people must be the ancestors of Cain, this must be the curse manifest.

If self-righteousness and supremacism is bad fruit and anyone who produces bad fruit is a heretic, then we have all been heretics at some point in our lives. But we're just not heretics all the time.

just as the God in the Torah is only interested in those which abide by him, there is no difference.

The story of Jonah seems to indicate that wasn't always true.

 

[Lunitik]

Since Christ was an Essene, it is more likely that his truth actually refers to Kaballistic teachings. He says he is that, they are not distinct, this is a non-dualistic statement. He is saying he points the way to this, but the only tangible evidences of this way is 1 Corinthians 12:12-27 in the Bible of today - if all are one body, there cannot be two. Another is where he says some will see the Kingdom of God before they taste death... indeed, any statement where he refers to being the light or any pointer to anything related to light - fire is a popular one in many religions, including this one - is a reference to enlightenment. The Bible is so full of dualistic statements, however, that it has become completely absurd today for Christians that Jesus might be talking about the same thing the East has perfected. No, enlightenment is an Eastern teaching, our precious savior has already done everything, we just have to believe and follow the Sheppard as his sheep.

Only problem is they forget to actually do this... sheep do not merely barr at the Sheppard once a week and go back to their grass when an order is given, neither do they spend their lives trying to decipher the order, they just do it. Jesus is the most simple of any teacher and yet still only a few handfuls of people have understood him. Contemplation on a few verses is all it takes to confirm you are part of his body:

- Return to an innocent state, removing all cruft and differentiation - love/hate, good/bad, etc
- Know you are part of the body of Christ, and that each part when complete makes the whole
- Know that God is one with Christ, thus your participation in the body must correlate to this relationship
- God is love, can you be love?

When you are finished, if you have been successful, you will be baptized by fire as Jesus says is his method. As I have stated, this fire refers to an experience of light, but it is more profound than this. This will not be something which can be questioned, you will be completely speechless and in awe, you will be home. Christians do not even seem to recall they have a home...

As a consequence, you will fundamentally understand that truth can only be one. Organizations are just political groups keeping you from lifting the veil, they have turned you into followers of John the Baptist because one baptized by fire cannot justify combat - who can be fought, they are same, they have only forgot like I had. You cannot love your enemies because you have none, there cannot be a devil, there cannot be sin, there is only being asleep to that which is your nature. You are not special, you are not favored, so this must be possible for everyone. What is the need of scriptures now? You know it yourself, what is the need continue being pointed? You have graduated, now you must only perfect in the real world - the inner world.

 

[Quahom1]

If he's a true Christian I'm Dick van Dyke in Mary Poppins..

...just a spoon full of sugar...

 

[Quahom1]

Since Christ was an Essene, it is more likely that his truth actually refers to Kaballistic teachings. He says he is that, they are not distinct, this is a non-dualistic statement. He is saying he points the way to this, but the only tangible evidences of this way is 1 Corinthians 12:12-27 in the Bible of today - if all are one body, there cannot be two. Another is where he says some will see the Kingdom of God before they taste death... indeed, any statement where he refers to being the light or any pointer to anything related to light - fire is a popular one in many religions, including this one - is a reference to enlightenment. The Bible is so full of dualistic statements, however, that it has become completely absurd today for Christians that Jesus might be talking about the same thing the East has perfected. No, enlightenment is an Eastern teaching, our precious savior has already done everything, we just have to believe and follow the Sheppard as his sheep.

Only problem is they forget to actually do this... sheep do not merely barr at the Sheppard once a week and go back to their grass when an order is given, neither do they spend their lives trying to decipher the order, they just do it. Jesus is the most simple of any teacher and yet still only a few handfuls of people have understood him. Contemplation on a few verses is all it takes to confirm you are part of his body:

- Return to an innocent state, removing all cruft and differentiation - love/hate, good/bad, etc
- Know you are part of the body of Christ, and that each part when complete makes the whole
- Know that God is one with Christ, thus your participation in the body must correlate to this relationship
- God is love, can you be love?

When you are finished, if you have been successful, you will be baptized by fire as Jesus says is his method. As I have stated, this fire refers to an experience of light, but it is more profound than this. This will not be something which can be questioned, you will be completely speechless and in awe, you will be home. Christians do not even seem to recall they have a home...

As a consequence, you will fundamentally understand that truth can only be one. Organizations are just political groups keeping you from lifting the veil, they have turned you into followers of John the Baptist because one baptized by fire cannot justify combat - who can be fought, they are same, they have only forgot like I had. You cannot love your enemies because you have none, there cannot be a devil, there cannot be sin, there is only being asleep to that which is your nature. You are not special, you are not favored, so this must be possible for everyone. What is the need of scriptures now? You know it yourself, what is the need continue being pointed? You have graduated, now you must only perfect in the real world - the inner world.

I doubt Jesus was Essene. He broke bread, he served fish, he made wine, he beat the hell out of idiots. he enjoyed being taken care of by people...he challenged the established law. He argued with the establishment and won. He knew the government was due it's due, and God was due his...

These are not the actions of an Essene....

 

[Saltmeister]

I do not comprehend their loyalty, but this is how crowd-think works, it isn't rational.

In a modern, liberal and secular society "crowd-think" may seem ridiculous, but I wonder what would have happened without "crowd-think," if people cared more about themselves than the rest of their group. I think their chances of survival would drop.

No, do not think for yourself, fear fear fear, this is much easier. Make sure death is the first thing people consider when they wake up and the last when they go to bed, remind them that even God in human form has died as often as possible and this fear can be used to ensure there are less questions. Just follow Jesus, do as he does and believe my interpretation of him, you will be safe. If this life is horrible, it is fine, I have created the problem but I also promise bliss when you die - death is forever, it is worth it. If you do keep questioning me, you will have an eternity of punishment, keep up that fear. You cannot escape the cross, the Bible is the modern cross, but please don't figure this out, that is blasphemy. Really, it is just another case of creating an problem so you can solve it. This is the whole basis of the desert religions, they invented guilt through teaching sin and now you need saving - here is the pill, now do as I say.

Don't forget that the New Testament Canon is just a "book." It is completely up to you how you want to read it. We have been contemplating the purpose of this book and its ideas for 2,000 years. We all have different views. The problem is that some people "require" you to see things a particular way.

Supposedly "good ideas" must be promoted and "bad ideas" must be demonised. I don't completely disagree with this philosophy. You seem to do plenty of that yourself. Who wouldn't promote the good and demonise the bad? What disgusts me is when bad ideas are promoted as "good" and good ideas demonised.

It's all very subjective, which is why some people take drastic measures and try to achieve it by force. This is how "socially destructive" and controlling cults develop. The founder or leader thinks their ideas are so good and so important that they will actually try to force the issue and dominate over their followers.

Most of the time, people do not resort to such drastic measures. They do however, promote or demonise ideas depending on which ones they think should prevail in the end. You do it, I do it and plenty of others do it. Jesus certainly did it, so it seems to mandate that we should do it too.

The question is what would happen if we didn't do this. The human race would probably descend into total chaos and anarchy. That is what I think would happen.

Religious people promote ideas they find in a book. The difference between ideas that religious and non-religious people promote is therefore the book. Religions revolve around books and traditions. Religious people think these books are special or contain special ideas.

Different people reading the same book will develop different views on it.

However, because of the belief that a book contains special ideas, some religious people feel that a lack of consensus weakens the "specialness" of the book. I for one do not agree with this concept, but many Christians feel this way.

Most of what you regard as "Christianity" is this consensus I dislike. It isn't because ultimately I disagree with the idea of a consensus, but rather that I disagree with the current and contemporary established, dominant or mainstream views of Christians. Consensus is good when the consensus is right, but when it is wrong, the consensus is the problem. The NT does not prescribe or dictate Christianity. Christianity is not something to be dictated.

The consensus is external. Every human experiences a book differently so every reader will develop different views. There is no normative Christianity except that which is established and I disagree with the present establishment(s) whether it is the Catholic, Orthodox or Protestant churches.

We currently have what I regard as a heretical consensus and this consensus must be steered back to the correct consensus. Christianity needs reform and the two main questions regarding reform that I have in mind is (1) how to achieve reform and (2) what reforms?

I have my own views on this, as you do.