Christian Fundamentalist Terrorist in Oslo

[Amergin]

As you may have read or heard on cable news, a terrorist bombed the Royal Government Headquarters of the Prime Minister of Norway in Oslo. Then this bastard went to a boy's camp on an island in the bay near Oslo. He had several guns. He shot everyone in sight. He had no expression on his face. He so far has killed 91 and many others are wounded. Many of the victims are children and teens at the camp.

The US media was quick to label the event to be the work of Al Qaeda. When the shooter was captured, he turned out to be a blond haired blue eyed Nordic man. So then the US media speculated that he was one of the rare Europeans and Americans of non-Muslim background joining Al Qaeda and praising Jihad. They were wrong.

The shooter is a Scandinavian Christian Fundamentalist described as a right wing extremist. I was shocked that this occurred in Norway.

Statistics show that Norway is 73% non-religious including 32% Atheists. Believing Christians are a minority in all Scandinavian Nations. Yet, a politically right-wing Christian Fundamentalist committed a terrorist act that is more typical of America.

America is 85 to 90% Christian, only about 5% Atheists/agnostics, and 5% other. Given half of all Americans reject any science that contradicts the Bible and thus reject evolution, the age of the Earth, and age of the Universe.

I expect in such a hyperreligious country an extremist fringe would be quite large. They have Tim McVeigh (Christian Identity), Eric Rudolph (Army of God and Christian Identity), Benjamin Smith (Army of God), Buford Furrow (Aryan Nations or Church of Jesus Christ Christian), Paul Hill, Scot Raeder, John Salvi, Richard Butler (Aryan Nations leader), and Robert Matthews (the Order).

It could be that the small minority of Christian Protestant Fundamentalist have some angry militants who deplore the secular nature of Norwegian Society and its political leaders.

Most Religious people are peaceful even if they hate non-believers. But the crazies among them may be spurred by hateful ancient scriptures to murder people.

Amergin

 

[Tamar]

From all I have read about this guy his Christianity did not play a part in his actions. He was angry about immigration, and he saw Islam as a threat. He was a nationalist who was threatened by multiculturalism.

Many in Europe see the inability or refusal of Immigrants to become part of the fabric of European society as a threat to their way of life. They believe those who come to their countries need to leave behind the ways of the countries they are leaving and adopt the culture of their new country.

What he did was despicable and horrible but I don't think it was because he was a Christian.

 

[Waymarker]

..The shooter is a Scandinavian Christian Fundamentalist...

If he's a true Christian I'm Dick van Dyke in Mary Poppins..

 

[Amergin]

If he's a true Christian I'm Dick van Dyke in Mary Poppins..

Every Christian claims to be a true Christian. Every Muslim claims to be a true Muslim. If a Muslim blows up a building or kills Americans or Europeans, the press calls him/her a "Muslim Terrorist."

If we are balanced in news we should describe Terrorists who claim to be Christian as "Christian Terrorists."

I know majority of Christians and Muslims are not terrorists. Perhaps it would be fair to call all Terrorists, terrorists and leave off their religious label. In some cases the Terrorist use their religion as the basis of their acts.

The Oslo Terrorist is described as a Right Wing Extremist and Fundamentalist Christian.

Eric Rudolph, Paul Hill, and Robert Matthews targeted people/children who cross the religious beliefs of the
terrorist.

If Tea Party armed activist Evangelicals use their guns to kill Americans, what kind of adjective would you place before the word "Terrorists."

Good Day, Dick. Say hi to Julie Andrews for me.

Amergin

 

[Lunitik]

If he's a true Christian I'm Dick van Dyke in Mary Poppins..

Do you suppose perhaps that peaceful Muslims are writing off their extremists in a similar vain?

It is not helpful to pretend your scriptures cannot be responsible, there is nothing in the Qu'ran that can't be found in the Old Testament, and this is just as holy for a Christian as the New.

 

[Lunitik]

From all I have read about this guy his Christianity did not play a part in his actions. He was angry about immigration, and he saw Islam as a threat. He was a nationalist who was threatened by multiculturalism.

Many in Europe see the inability or refusal of Immigrants to become part of the fabric of European society as a threat to their way of life. They believe those who come to their countries need to leave behind the ways of the countries they are leaving and adopt the culture of their new country.

What he did was despicable and horrible but I don't think it was because he was a Christian.

Where do you think these beliefs have come from? It is funny that his concerns match exactly with the Christians in places like Arizona... a place I live in and know to be disgusting, but very much a Christian movement. In America, the atheists are against the immigration laws, but if you watch Christian television, they are all for it. I don't know where the Christians get it from, but they are very separatist. I have also seen people throwing bottles and spitting on a local mosque, and plenty of racism in general here... it is humorous when I see Christians claiming this doesn't happen in their faith, or tries to justify them as simply not good Christians - especially when you consider they would say the same about those that seek peace. Groups like the Aryan Brotherhood and Klu Klux Klan are very much Christian, as well as Skin Heads and the like - in fact, most such groups REQUIRE you be protestant.

It truly is disgusting when you open your eyes and look at the situation - it is at least as bad as Muslim extremists, they just aren't reported because it gives Christianity a bad name. Indeed, Jesus has said much about not coming to bring peace but to divide the world... these people are just showing us the ramifications of those words.

 

[Paladin]

This, although extreme, insane and sick is where the us vs. them kind of thinking leads us. This is why we need to explore the ideas of other cultures and accept that believing one religion or one ideology is better than all others is immature, childish, and at long last destructive.
If anyone can look at this kind of horror and not re-think their exclusive leaning ideology, they have left their humanity far behind.

 

[Lunitik]

This, although extreme, insane and sick is where the us vs. them kind of thinking leads us. This is why we need to explore the ideas of other cultures and accept that believing one religion or one ideology is better than all others is immature, childish, and at long last destructive.
If anyone can look at this kind of horror and not re-think their exclusive leaning ideology, they have left their humanity far behind.

Here here!

 

[Snoopy]

According to Channel 4 and BBC news the mass murderer was associated with Christian Identity movement and he had posted a video to YouTube called Knights Templar 2083.

 

[Lunitik]

According to Channel 4 and BBC news the mass murderer was associated with Christian Identity movement and he had posted a video to YouTube called Knights Templar 2083.

I like how he repeatedly states "European" instead of "White" so he can claim the group isn't racist or in any way associated with Nazi groups. I also think it is humorous how he claims to dislike hate groups - is he really this oblivious to his own words?

I am a white european, I do not understand people like this at all. Why is there such separatism in the world? I honestly believe for 2-3 generations it should be illegal to marry within a single race, but perhaps this is too much to the other extreme. It is simple genetics, though, spread the gene pool: good, minimize the gene pool: bad. I think he is a good example of the latter, personally. The direct benefit, though, would be that no one would be racist anymore because no one would be of a single race - other than the human race.

Nationalism is no different from racism, you're just segregating further than before. I just don't understand, why do people cling to such things? What is so good about maintaining countries to begin with? They are just the result of historic groups gaining power to feed their ego, and it is no different today. These people think there is something superior about some aspect of themselves, and believe this justifies repressing others for their own benefit. I really hope some Christians view this and see the dangers of group-think.

 

[Waymarker]

Every Christian claims to be a true Christian...

Yes, no doubt the Norway killer thinks he's a nice guy, just as Koresh and Jim Jones did, but Jesus said we can tell what people are like by regarding them as trees, and if their fruit is rotten, it means they're rotten to the core.
Mass killing isn't exactly good wholesome fruit which is why we know they're not true christians, it's not rocket science..

 

[Lunitik]

Yes, no doubt the Norway killer thinks he's a nice guy, just as Koresh and Jim Jones did, but Jesus said we can tell what people are like by regarding them as trees, and if their fruit is rotten, it means they're rotten to the core.
Mass killing isn't exactly good wholesome fruit which is why we know they're not true christians, it's not rocket science..

Again, Christ has said he has come to create animosity, not peace. These people believe their actions will be fruitful in the future, for they see the resulting society as more Christian and thus superior, it seems the Bible would agree - which is why I'm not Christian.

Whether you personally understand things this way is irrelevant, these people are reading the same text and drawing these conclusion - this means there is clearly something very wrong with that text. These are the fruits of Christianity, if you would have eyes to see. I don't recall anything in the Bible about merely throwing away the bad fruit and keeping the tree because there is some good fruit on it. He discusses the very tree, for if that tree is giving bad fruit it cannot be a good tree.

 

[Waymarker]

..there is nothing in the Qu'ran that can't be found in the Old Testament, and this is just as holy for a Christian as the New.

Nah, Jesus gave us a new updated operating system called the New Testament, and all enlightened people were quick to embrace it.

Jesus said "It was said 'eye for eye,tooth for tooth' but I say turn the other cheek" (Matt 5:38/39)
"Through Jesus we are saved,and not through Moses" (Acts 13:39)
"The covenant of Jesus is superior to the old one" (Heb 8:6-13)
"Jesus is worthy of more honour than Moses" (Heb 3:3)
"We serve in the new way of the spirit,not in the old way of the written code" (Rom 7:6)
"The epistle of Christ,written not in stone,but in the heart" (2 Cor 3:3)
"The law was given by Moses,but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ" (John 1:17)
"The veil covers the old covenant,but is removed by Jesus" (2 Cor 3:12)

After all, if God thought the Old T was all we needed, he wouldn't have sent Jesus to give us the New T..
As for the Koran, it was never updated and remains as harsh today as it ever was.

 

[Waymarker]

..Christ has said he has come to create animosity, not peace..

Only in the context that families will be split if some members decide to ditch the old traditional family religion and switch to him.
Look-
"Don't think I came to bring peace on earth. I didn't come to bring peace but a sword.
For I've come to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.
A man's enemies will be those of his own household.
He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me.
And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.
And he who doesn't take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me" (Matt 10:34+)

And people quickly cottoned on-
"Jesus saved you from the empty way of life handed you by your forefathers" (1 Peter 1:18 )

 

[Lunitik]

Nah, Jesus gave us a new updated operating system called the New Testament, and all enlightened people were quick to embrace it.

Jesus said "It was said 'eye for eye,tooth for tooth' but I say turn the other cheek" (Matt 5:38/39)
"Jesus saved you from the empty way of life handed you by your forefathers" (1 Pet 1:18 )
"Through Jesus we are saved,and not through Moses" (Acts 13:39)
"The covenant of Jesus is superior to the old one" (Heb 8:6-13)
"Jesus is worthy of more honour than Moses" (Heb 3:3)
"We serve in the new way of the spirit,not in the old way of the written code" (Rom 7:6)
"The epistle of Christ,written not in stone,but in the heart" (2 Cor 3:3)
"The law was given by Moses,but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ" (John 1:17)
"The veil covers the old covenant,but is removed by Jesus" (2 Cor 3:12)

After all, if God thought the Old T was all we needed, he wouldn't have sent Jesus to give us the New T..
As for the Koran, it was never updated and remains as harsh today as it ever was.

Why, then, is the Old Testament still included in the Christian Bible? Why has Jesus said "I do not come to change the law, but to confirm it"?

You should look into the Baha'i Faith though, Baha'u'llah is essentially the Islamic Jesus - although he also claims to fulfill Christian prophecy. It is quite a beautiful faith overall, but they are already starting to resemble prior dispensations in their inclination towards material life.

 

[Lunitik]

And people quickly cottoned on-
"Jesus saved you from the empty way of life handed you by your forefathers" (1 Peter 1:18 )

lol... I say to you that modern Christianity is just as empty as the Pharisees and Sadducees of Jesus' day. Compare and contrast Essene's with Christianity and Sufism, which is more spiritual? Jesus was an Essene.

This is a collection of beautiful presentations by such a Sufi - within there are statements about the Bible, Islam, Hinduism, many traditions. I really recommend others read this, although there are far deeper truths so do not settle there. Here is the website about a movement his Grandson is spearheading, truly beautiful to see such interfaith dialog forums. For the faiths to truly coexist, forums like this are really necessary to discuss just how similar each really is. You will notice the similarity between the words "sufi" and "sophia" - both simply mean "wisdom", and modern Sufism is not concerned with dogma, only in discovering and teaching truth.

Again, I am not Sufi, but it is the closest to truth I see in the Abrahamic traditions.

 

[Waymarker]

..Why, then, is the Old Testament still included in the Christian Bible? Why has Jesus said "I do not come to change the law, but to confirm it"?..

The Old T contains numerous prophecies foretelling his arrival and therefore gives his credentials tremendous clout, and it also contains the 10 Commandments which Jesus said he had no beef with,so that's why Christians don't want to abandon the OT.
However, Jesus did trash the harshness of the OT by binning the old "eye for eye" and rescuing adulteresses from fundy mobs etc, so in context he was showing us how to use our enlightened commonsense and compassion at all times.
Think of the Bible as a two-stage rocket; the OT is the first stage that lifts us off towards God, then later the second stage (the NT) kicks in and takes us the rest of the way..

"Is not God in the heights of heaven? And see how lofty are the highest stars!" (Job 22:12)

 

[Lunitik]

The Old T contains numerous prophecies foretelling his arrival and therefore gives his credentials tremendous clout, and it also contains the 10 Commandments which Jesus said he had no beef with,so that's why Christians don't want to abandon the OT.
However, Jesus did trash the harshness of the OT by binning the old "eye for eye" and rescuing adulteresses from fundy mobs etc, so in context he was showing us how to use our enlightened commonsense and compassion at all times.
Think of the Bible as a two-stage rocket; the OT is the first stage that lifts us off towards God, then later the second stage (the NT) kicks in and takes us the rest of the way..

"Is not God in the heights of heaven? And see how lofty are the highest stars!" (Job 22:12)

Why do you keep referring to 'enlightenment'? What do you think enlightenment means, what does it point to in your understanding?

Repeatedly quoting passages from a 2000 year old text is not enlightenment.

 

[Waymarker]

What do you think enlightenment means?
Repeatedly quoting passages from a 2000 year old text is not enlightenment.

Enlightenment to me means having the ability to lock on to Jesus like a guided missile and home in on him through all the decoy chaff, flares and jamming put up by other belief systems, think "Top Gun"..
As for ancient texts, the Bhagavad Gita, Buddhism and Hinduism are all far older than the New T, are you saying people shouldn't quote from them too?

 

[Lunitik]

Enlightenment to me means having the ability to lock on to Jesus like a guided missile and home in on him through all the decoy chaff, flares and jamming put up by other belief systems, think "Top Gun"..
As for ancient texts, the Bhagavad Gita, Buddhism and Hinduism are all far older than the New T, are you saying people shouldn't quote from them too?

So, if I told you Jesus was also enlightened, how would this effect your understanding?

I am saying no one should quote any religious text, for it is utterly irrelevant as anything other than a pointer and every person that reads a given passage gets something different form it. Use your own words if you want to show true understanding - Jesus used his own words, why can't you?

Probably because you have experienced nothing spiritually, this is fine, but you speak of spiritual things without direct knowledge and this is quite painful to watch.