human nature - inherently good or evil?

[Lunitik]

I receive enlightenment in the interaction of relationships. You could call that a device too, but a person is not a device. It takes only one person to play with a device. It takes at least two to interact and have a relationship.

Impossible, enlightenment is the transcendence of duality, by engaging with another you perpetuate duality. This is why Jesus says "I and my father are one", for instance - Jesus was just another enlightened man.

 

[luecy7]

Impossible, enlightenment is the transcendence of duality, by engaging with another you perpetuate duality. This is why Jesus says "I and my father are one", for instance - Jesus was just another enlightened man.

I receive enlightenment in the interaction with others. Not only is it possible, but in my view it is the only way. Per the gospels, Jesus interacted with many. To be loving, place faith, be honest, be forgiving, have humility, be patient, have courage, be prayerful, etc... these actions involve interaction with someone other than self, and similarly, in the relationship with God.

 

[Lunitik]

I receive enlightenment in the interaction with others. Not only is it possible, but in my view it is the only way. Per the gospels, Jesus interacted with many. To be loving, place faith, be honest, have humility, be patient, have courage, be prayerful, etc... these qualities involve interaction with someone other than self, and similarly, the relationship with God.

Jesus interacted after enlightenment, but where did he attain?

Those 40 days alone in the desert, who was he with then?

 

[luecy7]

Jesus interacted after enlightenment, but where did he attain?

Those 40 days alone in the desert, who was he with then?

According to the gospels: He was led by the Spirit to be tempted by the Devil. Is that truly where you claim he obtained enlightenment? Some alone time with the Devil? Perhaps.

Or perhaps it was the event prior: fulfilling all righteousness, seeking baptism from John the Baptist, coming up from the water the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove... and a voice out of the heavens saying, "This is My Son -- the Beloved, in whom I did delight." From my viewpoint, that would be rather enlightening.

 

[Etu Malku]

According to the gospels: He was led by the Spirit to be tempted by the Devil. Is that truly where you claim he obtained enlightenment? Some alone time with the Devil? Perhaps.

Or perhaps it was the event prior: fulfilling all righteousness, seeking baptism from John the Baptist, coming up from the water the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove... and a voice out of the heavens saying, "This is My Son -- the Beloved, in whom I did delight." From my viewpoint, that would be rather enlightening.

the story of Jesus in desert and his Temptations is an allegory towards the Adversity we all meet in our lives, it is intended to explain the How & Why we are to overcome such things.

 

[Lunitik]

According to the gospels: He was led by the Spirit to be tempted by the Devil. Is that truly where you claim he obtained enlightenment? Some alone time with the Devil? Perhaps.

It matches very closely to the story of Buddha and Mara... it is also something Muhammad has done, as well as Moses. Every enlightened being is recorded as spending time in retreat and coming out teaching what they have encountered.

Or we can accept there is such a thing as the devil... lol

Or perhaps it was the event prior: fulfilling all righteousness, seeking baptism from John the Baptist, coming up from the water the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove... and a voice out of the heavens saying, "This is My Son -- the Beloved, in whom I did delight." From my viewpoint, that would be rather enlightening.

I am not using enlightenment in the sense you use enlightening here, it is an experience where you are literally filled with light - all around you glows, all is illuminated from within. In this, you also experience an interconnectedness, you experience a oneness as your body feels as if it has exploded - no longer providing a barrier between inner and outer. You become pure electricity, just a wave pattern witnessing this place.

I do not mean simply a higher knowledge, or whatever you think those events have accomplished.

 

[Lunitik]

the story of Jesus in desert and his Temptations is an allegory towards the Adversity we all meet in our lives, it is intended to explain the How & Why we are to overcome such things.

Inaccurate, the devil depicts the chaos that comes prior to enlightenment. It is not a coincidence that devil and divine come from the same root, they are two opposites. Jesus has overcome his lower self and become divine in the desert.

 

[luecy7]

It matches very closely to the story of Buddha and Mara... it is also something Muhammad has done, as well as Moses. Every enlightened being is recorded as spending time in retreat and coming out teaching what they have encountered.

Or we can accept there is such a thing as the devil... lol

From your viewpoint, perhaps. I don't read that he was ever solo.

I am not using enlightenment in the sense you use enlightening here, it is an experience where you are literally filled with light - all around you glows, all is illuminated from within.

The words, "the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him", sound to me like an en-light-enment. It says the Spirit of God descended and was light-ing upon him. Not to discount what you say is your experience, but that per the gospel with Jesus this occured before going on a 40-day fast.

In this, you also experience an interconnectedness, you experience a oneness as your body feels as if it has exploded - no longer providing a barrier between inner and outer. You become pure electricity, just a wave pattern witnessing this place.

I am keenly aware that you associate your experience with your feel, or your senses, whether physical or not.

I do not mean simply a higher knowledge, or whatever you think those events have accomplished.

Something higher, is how you have used it. On this thread you said, "Now, I have experienced something higher, you have only experienced the low, whose words are more important do you think?" What do you think your event has accomplished?

 

[Lunitik]

From your viewpoint, perhaps. I don't read that he was ever solo.

So you believe the devil literally visited Jesus?

The words, "the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him", sound to me like an en-light-enment. It says the Spirit of God descended and was light-ing upon him. Not to discount what you say is your experience, but that per the gospel with Jesus this occured before going on a 40-day fast.

Certainly I can understand the descending, and he will have ascended, and indeed lighting is accurate... what is intended by saying the "heavens opened" though? What does he mean by "Spirit of God"? I assure you the words do not point much towards the happening. They are simply impotent by comparison.

Something higher, is how you have used it. On this thread you said, "Now, I have experienced something higher, you have only experienced the low, whose words are more important do you think?" What do you think your event has accomplished?

It is not a knowledge, mind cannot fathom it fully, even time it tries I look at the result in disgust because so much can't be said. It almost seems trivial when I put it in words, yet it has changed my life utterly, I know what I am, my nature, what I was before birth and what I shall be after death. This is the purpose of religion, to answer these most fundamental questions and I assure you you cannot learn that from socializing with friends.

 

[luecy7]

So you believe the devil literally visited Jesus?

That is what the document says. Do you think God was literally absent?

Certainly I can understand the descending, and he will have ascended, and indeed lighting is accurate... what is intended by saying the "heavens opened" though? What does he mean by "Spirit of God"? I assure you the words do not point much towards the happening. They are simply impotent by comparison.

The words that point to an en-light-enment with God came before the words that point to a 40 day fast, and temptation by the devil. Do you think somebody got the order wrong?

It is not a knowledge, mind cannot fathom it fully, even time it tries I look at the result in disgust because so much can't be said. It almost seems trivial when I put it in words, yet it has changed my life utterly, I know what I am, my nature, what I was before birth and what I shall be after death.

Will others find your nature to be good, or to be evil?

This is the purpose of religion, to answer these most fundamental questions and I assure you you cannot learn that from socializing with friends.

The nature of a person is not answered by religion. I submit that there is more to interaction than socializing, and more types of relationships than friends. In the interaction with others, a person discovers and contends with not only their own nature, but also the nature of others.

 

[Etu Malku]

Inaccurate, the devil depicts the chaos that comes prior to enlightenment. It is not a coincidence that devil and divine come from the same root, they are two opposites. Jesus has overcome his lower self and become divine in the desert.

Holy Poopstains, get off it with the enlightenment already . .
This is the typical Hero story, the desert symbolizes the Duat/Underworld, Satan the adversary, our Hero (Yeshua) enters the Duat, defeats demons and re-enters the mundane world with new cool stuff (I guess that could be your enlightenment).


Divinity: The root of the word is literally "godlike" (from the Latin deus)
Devil: Descends from the Middle English devel, from Old English dēofol, that in turn represents an early Germanic borrowing of Latin diabolus

I bet you're gonna say they come from Sanskrit; Deva

 

[seattlegal]

Inaccurate, the devil depicts the chaos that comes prior to enlightenment. It is not a coincidence that devil and divine come from the same root, they are two opposites. Jesus has overcome his lower self and become divine in the desert.

Holy Poopstains, get off it with the enlightenment already . .
This is the typical Hero story, the desert symbolizes the Duat/Underworld, Satan the adversary, our Hero (Yeshua) enters the Duat, defeats demons and re-enters the mundane world with new cool stuff (I guess that could be your enlightenment).

Oh my! I agree with both of you!
{Good thing I'm sitting down, so I didn't faint!}

This all takes place within the human mind, as well, so does that make humans inherently good, or inherently evil?

 

[radarmark]

Good, no bad. Bad, no good. Good, no bad. Bad, no good. Good, no bad. Bad, no good. Good, no bad. Bad, no good. Good, no bad. Bad, no good. Good, no bad. Bad, no good. Good, no bad. Bad, no good. Good, no bad. Bad, no good. Good, no bad. Bad, no good. Good, no bad. Bad, no good. Good, no bad. Bad, no good. Good, no bad. Bad, no good. Good, no bad. Bad, no good. Good, no bad. Bad, no good. Good, no bad. Bad, no good. Good, no bad. Bad, no good. Good, no bad. Bad, no good. Good, no bad. Bad, no good. Good, no bad. Bad, no good. Good, no bad. Bad, no good.

Or something in-between?

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

Holy Poopstains, get off it with the enlightenment already . .
This is the typical Hero story, the desert symbolizes the Duat/Underworld, Satan the adversary, our Hero (Yeshua) enters the Duat, defeats demons and re-enters the mundane world with new cool stuff (I guess that could be your enlightenment).

Very Joseph Campbell

 

[luecy7]

This all takes place within the human mind, as well, so does that make humans inherently good, or inherently evil?

If humans are inherently anything, must every individual inherently be the same?

 

[Lunitik]

The nature of a person is not answered by religion. I submit that there is more to interaction than socializing, and more types of relationships than friends. In the interaction with others, a person discovers and contends with not only their own nature, but also the nature of others.

I submit that our ultimate nature is not that of a person at all.

 

[Lunitik]

This all takes place within the human mind, as well, so does that make humans inherently good, or inherently evil?

As I have said, we cannot inherently be a concept, delusion attempts to separate things which are fundamentally identical - just different levels of it.

In this way, since humans begin a blank slate and evil is the least amount of good, you can say we are inherently evil but where does that get you?

 

[Etu Malku]

Humans are capable of blinding love and equally blinding hatred, a balance is necessary, I don't believe we are inherently evil.

 

[seattlegal]

As I have said, we cannot inherently be a concept, delusion attempts to separate things which are fundamentally identical - just different levels of it.

In this way, since humans begin a blank slate and evil is the least amount of good, you can say we are inherently evil but where does that get you?

Um, no we do not begin as a "blank slate." We begin with the qualities of being human. We are born innocent, not having had a chance to partake or abstain from good or evil.

 

[Lunitik]

Humans are capable of blinding love and equally blinding hatred, a balance is necessary, I don't believe we are inherently evil.

Hatred is a product of love, it is love + feeling wronged.

It is not the same as anger, which can manifest as just a lashing out at random people.