human nature - inherently good or evil?

[radarmark]

Oh. Because the criticize you does not mean they are closed minded. "It is about becoming cordial and understanding of others, it is not about realizing every difference you imagine is simply false" is very perceptive and more of us should apply it.

 

[wil]

I am beginning to see this is a futile activity, it is an interfaith forum yet everyone goes on trying to say what is better about their particular faith.

Point counterpoint, you say what you believe, they say what they believe. You state how you differ...this is called discussion.

I can show through any religious text what I am saying, yet because it is not exactly aligned to any particular group, all will dispute what is said.

If all are disputing what you have said, and all have been here for a while, is it you or them?

I am bringing a synthesize to what I thought was a neutral forum, I am clearly mistaken.

It is a discussion forum. When you enter the Christian area and dispute Christian thought...expect a response from a Christian viewpoint....same in the Buddhist section or Islam etc.

Right now, the agreements are utterly on the periphery on these boards, whereas the real synthesis is at the very core.

It is hard to discuss with someone who knows everything, but if one does, then as I see it communication is the responsiblity of the communicator.

Through this, it cannot be that there is disagreement, it will simply be that it shows someone that has not arrived.

I would think that one who has arrived would have patience for those that haven't. Have you ever taught a child to read, or ride a bike? Getting frustrated and quitting is bad parenting, and not the fault of the child. Also different folks learn at different rates, and have different levels of accceptablity of teaching, hence why G!d sent Buddha for some, Moses for others, Jesus for some, and on and on.... could be you haven't found here those that are ready for the lunitik?

Social behaviors are going to differ, every faith has been delivered to divergent peoples so the laws have echoed what is acceptable there. We can understand how these laws have come to be though if we do arrive at that core.

I guess I should have kept reading...we can agree there.

Then, that is all interfaith is really about isn't it? It is about becoming cordial and understanding of others, it is not about realizing every difference you imagine is simply false.

Surely you are not disagreeing that as you are chastizing others about being disagreeable.

I do not understand why such people are on an interfaith forum though, they should be on a forum that is more closed minded - uhh, more specific.

There are those that gravitate to this site and stay. And those that show up like flash in the pans and leave. There are those that come to preach and get upset if they can't find smiling nodding congregants. Its all part of the soup. In my time however I've yet to see anyone come and insist that everyone else change or leave...and actually be successful at that.

Most if they find the participants of discussion here are not to their liking move on, but many of those have moved here from sites that they've had the same issues...reminds me of the story....

A story which may actually be on topic to this thread....

A man was traveling from one city to another city when he met an old lady sitting beside the road. Wanting to know about the people in the town he was traveling to, he stopped and asked the old lady, "What are the people like in the next town?"


She looked at him and asked, "How were the people like in the town that you came from?"

The traveler answered "Oh, they were wonderful, kind, courteous and friendly!"

The old lady said "They are the same in the next town."

The next day another man was traveling to the same city when he met the old lady sitting beside the road. Also wanting to know about the people in the town he was traveling to, he stopped and asked the old lady, "What are the people like in the next town?"

She looked at him and asked, "How were the people like in the town that you came from?"

"Oh, they were terrible, the meanest, most unfriendly people that you would ever meet."

The old lady looked at him and said "They are the same in the next town." I'll let you figure it out.

 

[Lunitik]

Oh. Because the criticize you does not mean they are closed minded. "It is about becoming cordial and understanding of others, it is not about realizing every difference you imagine is simply false" is very perceptive and more of us should apply it.

What is gained from becoming aware of many views?

Only confusion!

My vision of interfaith is that things are discussed and the different faiths present how it is similar in their tradition, but instead it is always a clinging to what is different, like a crowbar wedging everything apart.

I do not see the point in it.

 

[radarmark]

What is gained from becoming aware of many views?

Only confusion!

I do not see the point in it.

If you feel that way, perhaps you should not participate. I know I have learned a lot from your lengthy dicussion with Thomas or bobx's with mojoshah. I feel a little disappointed.

Peace, friend

 

[wil]

What is gained from becoming aware of many views?

Only confusion!

My vision of interfaith is that things are discussed and the different faiths present how it is similar in their tradition, but instead it is always a clinging to what is different, like a crowbar wedging everything apart.

I do not see the point in it.

It is called choice.

The Bahai have a form of interfaith where they have combined faiths as they see it. Much interfaith has to do with the respect of others beliefs.

Many are here for convesation, not conversion.

 

[Lunitik]

Point counterpoint, you say what you believe, they say what they believe. You state how you differ...this is called discussion.

Looks more like conflict to me, I have not come here to argue with everyone, I have come to try to show how there is nothing to argue about.

If all are disputing what you have said, and all have been here for a while, is it you or them?

If the whole world agrees that grass is triangle colored, does it make it a truth?

It is a discussion forum. When you enter the Christian area and dispute Christian thought...expect a response from a Christian viewpoint....same in the Buddhist section or Islam etc.

In truth, I do not appreciate the segregation between the faiths here to the different forums. Forum etiquette says you post in the most relevant forum to your topic, it started as a discussion on a book in the Bible...

I usually stay in "Belief and Spirituality" because for me this is more a common ground.

It is hard to discuss with someone who knows everything, but if one does, then as I see it communication is the responsiblity of the communicator.

This is the whole problem I have reacted to here, it is that ignorance is mistaken for knowledge - people are shaping things to their own liking, and are quite rude when you bring them back - this isn't what I am here for either. I do not claim to know everything, but I have been quite frank about my condition to allow others to trust deeper and yet it is a wasted effort - it seems people are on an interfaith forum to pack their heads with more idiocy, it is bizarre.

Religion is not a pursuit of mind, this must be understood. Religion is a pursuit of trust, of love, of let-go. This is how the splits in philosophy have began in the first place: religious people began going into depths that the thinkers could not fathom and of course there is the impossibility of such people arriving because it is an attack on the information, they are not interested in what is conveyed.

I would think that one who has arrived would have patience for those that haven't.

I have had much patience here, I have spent a couple months trying to communicate how every faith is teaching the same, how it is ego which insists there is difference. It falls on deaf ears though, people are too much stuck in what they think they know.

It is not that I am special because I have arrived, that is why it is so frustrating. In the time it takes to read a post you can look upon the face of what is called God, but people go on deciphering the words instead of permeating in what is said.

Have you ever taught a child to read, or ride a bike?

No, I have no children.

Getting frustrated and quitting is bad parenting, and not the fault of the child. Also different folks learn at different rates, and have different levels of accceptablity of teaching, hence why G!d sent Buddha for some, Moses for others, Jesus for some, and on and on.... could be you haven't found here those that are ready for the lunitik?

This has caused a chuckle!

In the child, you can observe a growth, I see none just constantly going around in circles. This is something though, acceptance... I don't even want acceptance because this is a mind pursuit again. I want people to actually pay attention to what is said, experiment themselves. There is no need to accept or reject, I am speaking on something which can be experienced directly.

I guess I should have kept reading...we can agree there. Surely you are not disagreeing that as you are chastizing others about being disagreeable. There are those that gravitate to this site and stay. And those that show up like flash in the pans and leave. There are those that come to preach and get upset if they can't find smiling nodding congregants. Its all part of the soup. In my time however I've yet to see anyone come and insist that everyone else change or leave...and actually be successful at that.

I am not preaching, I am not threatening anyone's current faiths - I can simply explain their own faiths devices so they can arrive through it. I have been very accommodating in this way, but always they ignore the device and start intellectualizing how they conceive of it. What I say always has a purpose, nothing I say is ever not conveying the ultimate, but I understand it as the writer will have, not how the mundane humans that have gained power decided it should be read.

Most if they find the participants of discussion here are not to their liking move on, but many of those have moved here from sites that they've had the same issues...reminds me of the story....

A story which may actually be on topic to this thread....

There is very little interfaith dialog on the internet, I have looked. Mostly, everyone wants to keep to there own, I have no interest in that at all because for me individualism is holy... groups are what cause every evil.

 

[Lunitik]

If you feel that way, perhaps you should not participate. I know I have learned a lot from your lengthy dicussion with Thomas or bobx's with mojoshah. I feel a little disappointed.

Peace, friend

Again, then you have missed the point... I am not here to teach, I am here to cause others to transcend as I have.

 

[Lunitik]

It is called choice.

The Bahai have a form of interfaith where they have combined faiths as they see it. Much interfaith has to do with the respect of others beliefs.

Many are here for convesation, not conversion.

I have been explaining recently that choice is of ego, there is only one truth - can only be one.

I am not trying to cause any conversion, it is unnecessary because if you go into any faith deep enough the clinging to any particular faith is dropped automatically. What need is there for faith when truth is staring you in the face? Through direct experience, we maintain integrity; by trying to emulate anothers experience we are nothing but a fraud.

 

[Etu Malku]

What is gained from becoming aware of many views?

Only confusion!

My vision of interfaith is that things are discussed and the different faiths present how it is similar in their tradition, but instead it is always a clinging to what is different, like a crowbar wedging everything apart.

I do not see the point in it.

Well, I am all for comparing like aspects of our different Beliefs.

 

[radarmark]

I sympathize, just realize that while there may be onlot one truth (one way the universe is at any moment) anyone's knowledege of it is dependent and, hence, only partial. Our knowledge of what is true varies from 0 to 1. It may be true that right now the Sun supernovas and we all will die, but my knowledge of that is precisely 0. I would claim that all we know as 1 (ABSOLUTE TRUTH) are the trivialities of deductive logic, arithmatic, and ostensive definitions. All other knowledge (NOT truth) is partial, so somewhere between 0 and 1.

Pax et amore omnia vincunt

 

[wil]

If the whole world agrees that grass is triangle colored, does it make it a truth?

As a matter of fact. Yes.

Just as we have agreed the sky is blue, but the spanish have agreed it is azul...both truth, as both is accepted by their societies.....and should the whole world decide it is triangle colored...it would be....by unanimous agreement of the definition of the term.


Speaking of definitions of terms, it seems we are having an issue with the word ego, with what ego means, as it appears by your most recent posts that the common definition of ego is what is being bruised in this issue.

 

[Lunitik]

Well, I am all for comparing like aspects of our different Beliefs.

I see no other genuine purpose for signing up to an interfaith site!

Even if, when departing the conversation, all parties stick to their own faiths and terminology, there is much to gain I think from the clarity that a fresh perspective can bring.

 

[Lunitik]

I sympathize, just realize that while there may be onlot one truth (one way the universe is at any moment) anyone's knowledege of it is dependent and, hence, only partial. Our knowledge of what is true varies from 0 to 1. It may be true that right now the Sun supernovas and we all will die, but my knowledge of that is precisely 0. I would claim that all we know as 1 (ABSOLUTE TRUTH) are the trivialities of deductive logic, arithmatic, and ostensive definitions. All other knowledge (NOT truth) is partial, so somewhere between 0 and 1.

Pax et amore omnia vincunt

Things on the periphery are constantly changing, what I speak of is that which is permanent. This is the goal of all religion, and it makes sense because religion has come about out of the knowledge of death. Buddha has presented this most raw, his pursuit is started exactly because he discovers the unfortunate parts of life. It is true in every faith though, some say things like "we have sent death as a sign for you" or other like statements. Hinduism's "maya" is exactly everything which is non-permanent, because like a dream, everything material will come and go.

So, while I agree that everything on this plane is an constant change and we must adapt to what life brings us, that is not the focus of religion at all. That is exactly what we are to re-bind with, the eternal - God.

 

[Lunitik]

As a matter of fact. Yes.

Just as we have agreed the sky is blue, but the spanish have agreed it is azul...both truth, as both is accepted by their societies.....and should the whole world decide it is triangle colored...it would be....by unanimous agreement of the definition of the term.


Speaking of definitions of terms, it seems we are having an issue with the word ego, with what ego means, as it appears by your most recent posts that the common definition of ego is what is being bruised in this issue.

Well that backfired, essentially I am saying it is possible for the general populace to all be wrong... oh well.

As for ego, the dictionary states it is a persons sense of self-importance and "The part of the mind that mediates between the conscious and the unconscious and is responsible for reality testing and a sense of personal identity." This is exactly what I reference, the real confusion comes from what to call that which watches this? I have gone on calling this consciousness, but it is common that to be awake you are considered conscious. Perhaps a better word is "awareness", but there is nothing that directly correlates.

From this place, you can see mind isn't a real thing, it is a constant space for thoughts only. Eventually, mind will seem as though it is ceasing because you will begin to open large spaces between thoughts and that is where satori happens. Like mind, ego too is not a real thing, there is no reason for anything unconscious to be happening - usually we give to the unconscious our habits because they no longer require our input. We can bring everything, including breathing and heart rate, into our conscious, but most of the time we simply ignore these things - hence I say "be more aware of everything". Even in sleep, the enlightened man remains aware, he simply does not put anything into the unconscious spaces - perhaps you can say this is what is happening in enlightenment, the barrier between unconscious and conscious has been broken, the filters on our perception are no more. Yet, through all of this, still it remains what to call the only constant in the person? There is part of the eternal within each of us but our language does not reference it today - closest is maybe soul.

 

[Lunitik]

Thing is, by using "soul", automatically we are aligned to something religious, and we bring in pre-conceived notions. What's more, Buddha has said there is no soul, so we are stating a preference that is open to debate.

Some faiths say that "soul" is within the individual, and "spirit" is the God part of each of us - that it remains with God at all times. Now we have to explain this though, because again there will be preconceived notions - most people think soul and spirit are synonymous. It becomes very difficult, it is easy to prove what this is - simply allow your eyes to lose focus and you will see the barrier, the veil that needs parting - but nothing that people know about these things is meaningful in the overall picture.

I think that "witness" is what I will use from now on, people go on mixing consciousness, mind, and awareness - they think these are already the case. The witness is that which watches all we are aware of today, and as we grow awareness the witness becomes more and more distinct. It is important spiritually that there is a distance created so that you are not clinging to the periphery - this is the essence of renunciation, although people go on renouncing necessary things instead (food, money, work, cities, even their own body they will become hostile to). Eventually, it is as though the spokes of the wheel have been removed and you simply live in the center, through the witness. Now you start to see that everything takes care of itself, you never needed to assert anything over reality. Truly beautiful to experience, every worry you ever had was simply stupid.

Perhaps this can create a less confusing atmosphere in the forums, clarity of communication is the most important thing in conveying these things - worth a try.

 

[Lunitik]

Many have voiced opinions about it being absurd that free will is a fallacy, an illusion. I understand why they say this, but it must be understood that reality simply isn't concerned with our preferences - it was not welcomed by myself either when I first encountered these ideas. We go on saying God is watching over us, and that we should do his will, but realizing there is no other possibility and that it is a direct influence not only caring support is not a pleasant idea.

Who would say death is a pleasant thing to acknowledge at first though? Do any of us have say over when we die? We can commit suicide, so we can reason it is our own say but we cannot refuse to die - it is inevitable. We also never chose when to come into this world, so at most our free will is extremely limited. The Advaita's say free will is the ego's programming, that choice is its illusion but the decision is already made. I have gone on using the notion of a movie, the actors are following a script and yet it possible to forget this isn't real. The Advaita's say God is the only actor, we are a role he is playing and the end of the movie for each is the returning to him...

For me, I think this is too much upfront, there is a great reason most scriptures never go into this topic. Ego simply doesn't want to admit there is no personality at all, that it is just a persona for our particular roles. Who will approach God if they know it will cause themselves to be utterly annihilated? It is as though we are walking into the sun, any sane person is not going to get very far. Even today, with the current understandings of free will and divine intervention people don't want anything to do with it. We are completely convinced we are distinct, but it is plainly false... non-duality insists it is utterly wrong, going into the ramifications makes it plainly clear ultimately.

This isn't important though, it is a by-product of discovering the pure witnessing which is each of our natures. When it is time, it will happen, a problem arises if you start to pretend it is already the case - you will become sloth, justifying that God has not moved you. Not all truths are valuable to throw at a person that is barely entering the process. Even if you never enter though, it happened to someone without prior knowledge, else how has religion began? We go on saying these people are incarnations of God, but this is fundamentally each of our states. They have simply become obsessed with death and played with what it might be like - this is what meditation really is. Eventually, there is a death, and these are the consequences of that - to die consciously before the body dies, there is a great reward waiting.

 

[Lunitik]

This will seem morbid to many, but if you are constantly aware that worst case scenario is inevitable eventually for everyone, how can you worry? How can you fear, or not be grateful for every additional breath you take, every heart beat in your chest? Every instance of life is a miracle, all is so beautiful, but we take it for granted. I am actually tearing up because man misses so much by becoming so self-indulged. Death has become a taboo in our societies, but it is just another instance of change in this plane. That is why the witness is so important, it is that part of us which is eternal, now even death can be watched - then it is a beautiful thing as well.

When we know that no matter what, things will keep on going after this physical body has died, how can we really obsess about the small changes we think we can make? Throughout history, man has warred and dictators have risen, it never lasts. The only thing that is constant through all of time is the witness, God. Only that is above time and space, only that is worth knowing in life - it is the only worthy goal. Everything else we become passionate about, everything else we think important will eventually fade away - look at the ruins archaeologists dig up, these were great civilization and yet they have disappeared and it is inevitable for every civilization currently proud of itself. Nothing we do in life is important or lasting, but we are too much caught up in it.

Find the permanent, find that which is the only constant... that is religion.

 

[Lunitik]

Now we can simply rejoice in everything we encounter, for even with the seemingly horrible we are alive to know it is so. Now everything about life becomes a play, you are free from your burdens because you understand that everything balances itself out eventually. When there is 10 years of war, there will be 10 years of peace, it must be so because ultimately existence is utterly fair.

It doesn't seem like it because we are caught up in the valley going about our day to day lives, when right now things are bad we will decide life sucks. When you discover the witness, suddenly you are on top of the mountains looking down and you can see how beautifully orchestrated everything really is.

Think of what our history books contain, always it is the negative times because this is the most exciting... existence is just ensuring life is not dull. If everything is peaceful and non-eventful, life is not even worth living any more, it becomes utterly boring. Why would any creator want that? Perhaps he has created us to love him, but ultimately we are his entertainment - but we are him, so there is no injustice in it. We are entertaining ourselves, we are making life more interesting because otherwise we know we would not like to even bother breathing. Who has not gone utterly into drama in their lives on this planet?

 

[Lunitik]

Religion is recognizing the way things are without a veil, looking down from the moon and seeing everything is utterly peaceful no matter what chaos there is on the surface of earth. Now you can go into the chaos and still rejoice because you remain looking down from the moon. No longer do you see anything wrong with it, even if it is destroyed the moon will not be touched. It is inevitable that life on this planet ceases to be, our sun will eventually die as well. It is irrelevant when it happens because we are not really preparing for it anyway. There is nothing worth worrying about because you understand what you are, this is freedom.

Of course, no government wants this, without cities and civilizations what purpose do they have? Instead of discovering yourself, you remain a slave to those that have successfully captured power. They can kill you, imprison you if you do not obey them, but the citizens will go on pressuring each other to participate because they have to themselves. This is not freedom at all, it is the furthest possible extreme from freedom, but most will say "well go and live in the woods then!" This is also not how things should be, we should do things out of love, not because of our slave obligations - we work because our master feeds us and lets us have toys, this is all money permits. Why is this a necessity though? Why can some not simply farm and give things to others, while others work on technology and provide that for all? Money is a governmental control, we now have people so utterly self-absorbed they will not do anything without getting something in return... disgusting, this place has become foul.

It is how things are though, and they will not stay this way - cannot. Either there will be less government, responsible for policing and building roads, things necessary for an unaware world society; another possibility is that the majority becomes aware and permits utter individuality and absolute team work. These are the possible directions going forward, but remaining static is not possible - never has been.

 

[Lunitik]

Each person should engage in the area they are passionate about, we should train everyone in their own interests because their participation is valuable. Now we are truly involved in our future, everyone is doing their part for the whole species, not because of obligations or because they will starve if they don't but purely out of love for that activity and for those around them. This is society, but in the current climate someone will always want more than others, someone will always seek power and control over the masses. They do not control themselves, they are going to succumb to death themselves some day, yet they persist. It is animal-like behavior, we have not evolved that far...