human nature - inherently good or evil?

[seattlegal]

Here is an essay from a Buddhist's perspective regarding liberation and resonance that you can compare to Lunitik's answer.

Samsara Divided by Zero

 

[Lunitik]

I meant by not but in the first part of my last reply to Etu

 

[luecy7]

Again, you are mistaking the path and destination.

You cannot be more wrong though, he IS talking about merging the opposites... about transcending duality. I have experienced this transcendence, you have not, so it is not surprising our interpretations will differ.

The merging and transcendence you are describing is merely a solo mental exercise, whereas I find it is far more than that. However, your words reveal that you mentally regard male and female as a spiritual difference instead of just a physical difference. From my perspective of you, by your words, you have not found a neutral character of a spirit common to a male and female, and dismissed the gender as a physical trait of the genetic machine. You have instead extended the physical traits into spiritual traits, and you demand variant physical roles as a result of it. While it is a given that there are genetic physical differences between every single person, there are spiritual aspects where gender is irrelevant.

For example, you say that Jesus was enlightened. According to the gospels: Jesus served a number of women, melting and serving their cause. Is that a male, or a female, path? Jesus served some men, melting and serving their cause. Is that a male, or a female, path? You have been drawing the distinctions.

A similar destination to your thinking (different path) is the hereditary blood line of a Monarch, where rather than drawing the distinction from a physical trait like the gender, the distinction is drawn from a hereditary line. Applied by more people, that spiritual trait is known as racism.

Does a child concern themselves with what race or gender they are? Do they look at a male and a female and say to themselves, I have a male spirit and you have a female spirit? I am a King, and you are a servant?

 

[Lunitik]

The merging and transcendence you are describing is merely a solo mental exercise, whereas I find it is far more than that.

It isn't a mental exercise at all, I wish you would cease to persist with this ignorance. In your experience, mind was utterly involved, it merely means you have never actually meditated and thus should probably stop discussing it.

However, your words reveal that you mentally regard male and female as a spiritual difference instead of just a physical difference.

I wish you could fathom ANYTHING, you simply don't though.

In spiritual seeking, you start with the physical surface being... in transcendence the dual aspects of male and female is a single instance of that event.

From my perspective of you, by your words, you have not found a neutral character of a spirit common to a male and female, and dismissed the gender as a physical trait of the genetic machine.

No, it is you that has dismissed male and female as just a physical trait, I am saying it is something which deeply effects our very being. You see how utterly absurd your perspectives are? You are basically always one hundred percent wrong.

New rule: From now on, whatsoever you think I am saying, flip it on its head and you will probably be close to what I am actually saying. Maybe then we can get somewhere.

You have instead extended the physical traits into spiritual traits, and you demand variant physical roles as a result of it. While it is a given that there are genetic physical differences between every single person, there are spiritual aspects where gender is irrelevant.

There is something which is common for both genders spiritually, and that is the culmination: both arrive at the same place.

You will have to find that though, it is the whole purpose of spiritual pursuit, and because of the chemical differences in the genders, the brains are fundamentally different and thus their minds are fundamentally different. Let me remind you that mind is exactly what must be transcended, it is simply stupid to go against the nature of mind in transcending it, you are fighting nature instead of using it on the way.

There is no deeper spiritual crime than trying to swim against the tide, the current knows where it is going, it is already going to the ocean. You have not experienced anything of the ultimate, I would suggest this is exactly why.

For example, you say that Jesus was enlightened. According to the gospels: Jesus served a number of women, melting and serving their cause. Is that a male, or a female, path? Jesus served some men, melting and serving their cause. Is that a male, or a female, path? You have been drawing the distinctions.

Jesus' path is female, it is why the males have never become enlightened while he was with them. You can attempt to follow the wrong path, but you will not arrive at destination if you do this, so it is basically utterly stupid.

A similar destination to your thinking (different path) is the hereditary blood line of a Monarch, where rather than drawing the distinction from a physical trait like the gender, the distinction is drawn from a hereditary line. Applied by more people, that spiritual trait is known as racism.

This is one of the most frustrating aspects to your reasoning, you just make insane arguments thinking them perfectly valid.

Does a child concern themselves with what race or gender they are? Do they look at a male and a female and say to themselves, I have a male spirit and you have a female spirit? I am a King, and you are a servant?

Again, Jesus has said you must return to the state of the child several times...

Most children do not even realize there is a physical difference between the sexes, so again your example is absurd.

 

[radarmark]

Re: human nature - inherently good or evil?

Reminds me of how Mike learned to laugh in "Stranger in a Strang Land" (Heinlein, read many many years ago).

Mike throws a peanut to a little monkey sitting by himself. The monkey greedily clasps it. But then a bigger male comes along and not only takes it away, but just beats the snot out of the first monkey.

The first monkey sits there for awile rocking. Then he rushes over to an even smaller monkey and pummels the third monkey.

Humans laugh to keep from acting like the monks.

 

[Etu Malku]

Lunitik: Enlightenment is to perfectly tune your being.

I was referring to the guitar as a guitar not a metaphor.
Guitars cannot be tuned perfectly (actually 'tuned perfectly' is subjective in and of itself).

 

[Lunitik]

I was referring to the guitar as a guitar not a metaphor.
Guitars cannot be tuned perfectly (actually 'tuned perfectly' is subjective in and of itself).

Why would I actually be talking about guitars?

I was continuing the device of Buddha...

 

[seattlegal]

Why would I actually be talking about guitars?

He was saying your analogy doesn't work, imo. (Out of tune with reality)

 

[luecy7]

It isn't a mental exercise at all, I wish you would cease to persist with this ignorance. In your experience, mind was utterly involved, it merely means you have never actually meditated and thus should probably stop discussing it.

Solo exercise.

I wish you could fathom ANYTHING, you simply don't though.

You are so kind, wishing me to fathom things.

No, it is you that has dismissed male and female as just a physical trait, I am saying it is something which deeply effects our very being.

Precisely. The 'not' was supposed to carry and apply to the end of that sentence.

Jesus' path is female, it is why the males have never become enlightened while he was with them. You can attempt to follow the wrong path, but you will not arrive at destination if you do this, so it is basically utterly stupid.

Yes, I recognized that as one of your beliefs.

Most children do not even realize there is a physical difference between the sexes...

Precisely.

 

[radarmark]

He was saying your analogy doesn't work, imo. (Out of tune with reality)

I think what he was saying was "the guitar is never in perfect tune" (it is always some little bit off, like I am, from perfection)!

 

[seattlegal]

I think what he was saying was "the guitar is never in perfect tune" (it is always some little bit off, like I am, from perfection)!

I like that!

Is it possible for something ideally perfect to physically exist? Theoretically, maybe (but when you add the chaos of quantum physics into the mix, even that is uncertain,) but in practice-doubtful.

Ever notice that it is the imperfections that add beauty? (There's that subjective part again)

 

[radarmark]

I think I agree. There is no instance of a perfect circle (but any consciousness can create one in the mind), and a circle is one of the the simplest things I can think of. So why, oh why, would you think a perfect example of anything more complex is possible?

P.S. Ever seen "The Helmet-Makers Beautiful Wife" by Rodin... phew, the most objectively ugly and subjectively beautiful (therefore beautiful) piece of art I have ever seen.

 

[Etu Malku]

Perfectionism is the persistence of Will in obtaining the optimal quality of spiritual, mental, physical, and material being.

There are no universal parameters of perfection. Individuals and cultures choose those values that, for them, represent the ideal of perfection.

The perfectionist does not believe that one can attain a perfect life or state of living. Rather, a perfectionist practices steadfast perseverance in obtaining the best possible life or state of living.

In other words, that guitar ain't ever gonna play in perfect tune, that's why I play a fretless guitar!

 

[seattlegal]

Perfectionism is the persistence of Will in obtaining the optimal quality of spiritual, mental, physical, and material being.

There are no universal parameters of perfection. Individuals and cultures choose those values that, for them, represent the ideal of perfection.

The perfectionist does not believe that one can attain a perfect life or state of living. Rather, a perfectionist practices steadfast perseverance in obtaining the best possible life or state of living.

In other words, that guitar ain't ever gonna play in perfect tune, that's why I play a fretless guitar!

Lemme guess: a lefthanded fretless guitar? (Ground wound or flat wound strings?)

 

[Etu Malku]

funny you should mention that . . . it's not Left Handed but still . . . this is own of my guitars

 

[luecy7]

Here is an essay from a Buddhist's perspective regarding liberation and resonance that you can compare to Lunitik's answer.

Samsara Divided by Zero

There is a half baked understanding of math and physics. Here is the famous bridge being set free. Sure, it is chaotic. The exact, precise outcome was exceedingly complicated and sensitive to initial conditions. I would summarize it with one word though... FAIL.

 

[seattlegal]

funny you should mention that . . . it's not Left Handed but still . . . this is own of my guitars

There is a half baked understanding of math and physics. Here is the famous bridge being set free. Sure, it is chaotic. The exact, precise outcome was exceedingly complicated and sensitive to initial conditions. I would summarize it with one word though... FAIL.

lol, Looks like I'm 0 for 2.

 

[Lunitik]

Solo exercise.

Meditation is the art of residing in the witness. You can be at a party, in the middle of a packed dance floor dancing with 3 girls at the same time, and still be meditating. You simply have NO understanding of meditation AT ALL, so please shut up about it.

It isn't for you, cool. You keep bringing up the Golden Rule though, how exactly is your closed attitude to meditation compliant with it? What do you even think is the purpose of religion, of faith? You are wasting your own time and mine, that is all I see. Your title claims "conscientious objector", you are nothing of the sort, you are a closed minded fool, nothing more.

 

[NiceCupOfTea]

Perfectionism is the persistence of Will in obtaining the optimal quality of spiritual, mental, physical, and material being.

There are no universal parameters of perfection. Individuals and cultures choose those values that, for them, represent the ideal of perfection.

The perfectionist does not believe that one can attain a perfect life or state of living. Rather, a perfectionist practices steadfast perseverance in obtaining the best possible life or state of living.

In other words, that guitar ain't ever gonna play in perfect tune, that's why I play a fretless guitar!

fretless guitar, never tried that.

some people make up their own tunings which is not a bad thing really. also some players retune slightly depending on what key they are playing in.

the tempered scale is a compromise and the tuning of the guitar even more so.

 

[Etu Malku]

fretless guitar, never tried that.

some people make up their own tunings which is not a bad thing really. also some players retune slightly depending on what key they are playing in.

the tempered scale is a compromise and the tuning of the guitar even more so.

Not to derail the thread entirely (sorry), obviously playing fretless allows for microtonal playing as well as adjusting non-Western scales to their correct quarter tones, I use a number of tunings such as DADGAD, and dropped D a lot. On my recordings I have at times used non-equal temperaments, they provide such wonderful colors and contrasts.

Well, I'll shut up now!