human nature - inherently good or evil?

[luecy7]

Lunitik, given your stated value for the gospel of Thomas, how have you rationalized this one:

Jesus saw some babies nursing. He said to his disciples, "These nursing babies are like those who enter the (Father's) kingdom."

They said to him, "Then shall we enter the (Father's) kingdom as babies?"

Jesus said to them, "When you make the two into one, and when you make the inner like the outer and the outer like the inner, and the upper like the lower, and when you make male and female into a single one, so that the male will not be male nor the female be female, when you make eyes in place of an eye, a hand in place of a hand, a foot in place of a foot, an image in place of an image, then you will enter [the kingdom]."

 

[Etu Malku]

Religion has come about through a deep curiosity of death, a surrendering and a want to know death before it finally happens.

Buddhism states this directly, it is probably the most honest and forthcoming religion there is. Sidhartha has ventured into the spiritual life solely in search of the permanent upon realizing his own mortality. That is the sole catalyst, and it is truly beautiful.

[FONT=&quot]Fear of death motivates our efforts to seek reassurance that our being will not vanish with the death of the physical[/FONT]. Whereas the little I know of Buddhism I like, unfortunately it loses me when tales of the supernatural are taken as literal. No one knows what happens after death of the physical body.

how to create that perfectly tuned guitar within your own being?

A guitar cannot be tuned perfectly

 

[seattlegal]

A guitar cannot be tuned perfectly

Yeah that G-string never fits quite right!
{It's the first to snap, too!}

 

[radarmark]

Mine did that once and a bunch of on-lookers passed out!

Seriously, though... EM, check out Rosenzwieg's "Star of Redemption". The first chapter has this gorgeous rap on death and the fear of death and the role philosophy (and by extention, religion) is supposed to have. I use the old WWII translation because of the formality of the translation (from pretty formal German).

If you can't get it, maybe I can locate the verses on the web.

Anyway, the gist is that it is philosophy's role to deflect that fear of death. But it has not in any meaningful (existential) way. Instead it forces us to peer over the precipace and know we shall become dust. (or something close to that).

Pax et amore omnia vincunt

 

[seattlegal]

Actually, it's the truth. Sets of guitar strings should come with at least 2 extra "G" strings, because those are the ones that need to be replaced way more often than the rest.

 

[Taoist]

He is actually correct in a way, although to call it darkness is erroneous.

I do not know if Taoism talks about the void or emptiness or any other similar concept, but it is an absence of anything. That is what darkness essentially is, an absence of light - it does not exist of itself.

Now, this is not particularly helpful at all, to create something, you will need building blocks. In the Big Bang theory for instance, it can bring us back to that original ball of energy, but where has it come from? They cannot answer it at all. Why has this mass of pure energy exploded? Surely it must have collided or some other force must have acted on it for it to explode at that moment. Where have these forces come from? Was there something before this mass of energy which it has collided with an aspect of? How has that originated? How long was this mass stable before it erupted?

There are endless questions in this regard Science simply cannot answer, we still cannot even say how the ball of atoms that form after conception have become a life form, let alone why they have began to split and the like - everything is just an educated guess.

What importance does how things have started really have though? Will it assist us in this life we are living? Same goes for how this world will end, why be concerned with it? The only thing that is real is THIS moment, the past is dead and the future is not born, THIS is the present, cherish THIS gift.

I also believe we are all good, but perhaps not all of us have let that goodness flow from within. But where there is light, there can be no more darkness...

Darkness came first, it is within Darkness that Light sits, the Universe and everything in it is mostly Dark.

Myabe i should have quoted both comments. Goodness was being discussed, not the beginnings of the universe, although such things i find quite interesting and would love to discuss.

Etu Malku propsoses that darkness comes first, in which i can only surmise he/she means darkness is the opposite to goodness and that such darkness occupies most things. I said "not necessarily" because i do not wholly agree.

 

[Etu Malku]

Etu Malku propsoses that darkness comes first, in which i can only surmise he/she means darkness is the opposite to goodness and that such darkness occupies most things. I said "not necessarily" because i do not wholly agree.

Actually I was being literal, that before there was actual Light there was a black void.

 

[Taoist]

I see. My apologies!! I misinterpreted your comment.

 

[seattlegal]

Actually I was being literal, that before there was actual Light there was a black void.

Formless void, maybe. (Would black even apply?)
In order to have form, you need space. Even light (being a waveform) needs space.

 

[radarmark]

Well, since the big bang probably started as a singularity (meaning the math of relativity does not apply) and singularities are also known as black holes because no radiation can escape (hence they are prefectly, featurelessly black to the eye), it is a pretty safe bet that there was a black void.

What does that do for you Etu Malku? Does it help your explanation?

I like the litmitless light (Ain Soph Aur) being "locked" inside the void until the singularity is no more (the time of the big bang). Kabbalah at it's best!

Radarmark.

 

[seattlegal]

Formless void, maybe. (Would black even apply?)
In order to have form, you need space. Even light (being a waveform) needs space.

If you are going to untangle knots, you need space, no? Is the universe not creating space, appearing to expand? It's more than that, though, imo.
Tao Te Ching

Chapter 4

The Tao is empty
When utilized, it is not filled up
So deep! It seems to be the source of all things
It blunts the sharpness
Unravels the knots
Dims the glare
Mixes the dusts
So indistinct! It seems to exist
I do not know whose offspring it is
Its image is the predecessor of the Emperor
​

Chapter 5

Heaven and Earth are impartial
They regard myriad things as straw dogs
The sages are impartial
They regard people as straw dogs
The space between Heaven and Earth
Is it not like a bellows?
Empty, and yet never exhausted
It moves, and produces more
Too many words hasten failure
Cannot compare to keeping to the void
​

​

 

[seattlegal]

Well, since the big bang probably started as a singularity (meaning the math of relativity does not apply) and singularities are also known as black holes because no radiation can escape (hence they are prefectly, featurelessly black to the eye), it is a pretty safe bet that there was a black void.

What does that do for you Etu Malku? Does it help your explanation?

I like the litmitless light (Ain Soph Aur) being "locked" inside the void until the singularity is no more (the time of the big bang). Kabbalah at it's best!

Radarmark.

Kewl!!

 

[radarmark]

With a spoonful of sugar, the Kabbalah goes down, the Kabbalah goes down.

They were pretty smart people... it always amazes me how accurate the Bible and other texts can be as interpreted within a fixed framework.

 

[Lunitik]

Lunitik, given your stated value for the gospel of Thomas, how have you rationalized this one:

He is talking about becoming utterly innocent, about dropping views - everything he lists is a view.

I have quoted this repeatedly actually since it exactly describes transcending duality, about finding oneness. It seems you have not been paying attention to anything have said since I signed up for this site since he is describing exactly what I go on saying.

 

[Lunitik]

[FONT=&quot]Fear of death motivates our efforts to seek reassurance that our being will not vanish with the death of the physical[/FONT]. Whereas the little I know of Buddhism I like, unfortunately it loses me when tales of the supernatural are taken as literal. No one knows what happens after death of the physical body.

Buddha has not discussed what happens after death, he is concerned with transforming you during life...

I do know what will happen after death though, everything we are will be transformed, merged back from whence it came. Our physical form will be utilized again in this place, our consciousness will return to the ultimate consciousness, we will cease to be as distinct beings.

Enlightenment is to merge your consciousness with That before the body is returned to dust, to return it to its source before you die, consciously surrendering your individuality.

A guitar cannot be tuned perfectly

I beg to differ.

 

[Lunitik]

He is talking about becoming utterly innocent, about dropping views - everything he lists is a view.

I have quoted this repeatedly actually since it exactly describes transcending duality, about finding oneness. It seems you have not been paying attention to anything have said since I signed up for this site since he is describing exactly what I go on saying.

Creating a eye in place of an eye, and a foot in place of a foot is something else - usually that part is not included in the quote. This describes being born again, you are now a whole new person. The rest though, it is about merging the opposites and thus transcending them - it will have to be done first, then once the old person has died to this, crucified if you will so that you can be resurrected, you have entered the Kingdom of God, you are enlightened.

 

[luecy7]

He is talking about becoming utterly innocent, about dropping views - everything he lists is a view.

I have quoted this repeatedly actually since it exactly describes transcending duality, about finding oneness. It seems you have not been paying attention to anything have said since I signed up for this site since he is describing exactly what I go on saying.

I don't think so. That is your interpretation, and not exactly what is said. Regardless, it says: when you make male and female into a single one, so that the male will not be male nor the female be female. To me that looks counter to your stated male vs female path beliefs.

 

[Lunitik]

I don't think so. That is your interpretation, and not exactly what is said. Regardless, it says: when you make male and female into a single one, so that the male will not be male nor the female be female. To me that looks counter to your stated male vs female path beliefs.

Again, you are mistaking the path and destination.

You cannot be more wrong though, he IS talking about merging the opposites... about transcending duality. I have experienced this transcendence, you have not, so it is not surprising our interpretations will differ.

 

[Etu Malku]

Buddha has not discussed what happens after death, he is concerned with transforming you during life...

and how is that accomplished?

I do know what will happen after death though, everything we are will be transformed, merged back from whence it came. Our physical form will be utilized again in this place, our consciousness will return to the ultimate consciousness, we will cease to be as distinct beings.

You were pretty clear what happens after death with your many posts . . . why not now?

Enlightenment is to merge your consciousness with That before the body is returned to dust, to return it to its source before you die, consciously surrendering your individuality.

and what would this accomplish? Why would we be interested in his?

Originally Posted by Etu Malku
A guitar cannot be tuned perfectly

I beg to differ.[/QUOTE]This I gotta hear

 

[Lunitik]

and how is that accomplished?

Essentially, but recognizing what is the witness to everything which happens, becoming aware of your own consciousness directly, rather than just accepting it.

You were pretty clear what happens after death with your many posts . . . why not now?

My statement seems pretty clear to me...

and what would this accomplish? Why would we be interested in his?

It is not my "job" to answer these questions, it is my job to show you how once you have answered them for yourself.

This I gotta hear

Enlightenment is to perfectly tune your being.