human nature - inherently good or evil?

I also believe we are all good, but perhaps not all of us have let that goodness flow from within. But where there is light, there can be no more darkness...
 
Vivida said:
I also believe we are all good, but perhaps not all of us have let that goodness flow from within. But where there is light, there can be no more darkness...
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Darkness came first, it is within Darkness that Light sits, the Universe and everything in it is mostly Dark.
 
I think that is the definition of creation (separation from G!d and the whole kellipot thing, I am asuming you have some Christian Kabbalic background).
 
Etu Malku said:
This is a tough scenario to wrap one's brain around, but I feel it to be important. Death cannot be truly understood without Life being experienced.
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I have always thought of it the other way around: life can not be truly experienced without death being understood and embraced.

Once one overcomes their fear of death, life takes on a whole new perspective.
 
Taoist said:
not necessarily
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He is actually correct in a way, although to call it darkness is erroneous.

I do not know if Taoism talks about the void or emptiness or any other similar concept, but it is an absence of anything. That is what darkness essentially is, an absence of light - it does not exist of itself.

Now, this is not particularly helpful at all, to create something, you will need building blocks. In the Big Bang theory for instance, it can bring us back to that original ball of energy, but where has it come from? They cannot answer it at all. Why has this mass of pure energy exploded? Surely it must have collided or some other force must have acted on it for it to explode at that moment. Where have these forces come from? Was there something before this mass of energy which it has collided with an aspect of? How has that originated? How long was this mass stable before it erupted?

There are endless questions in this regard Science simply cannot answer, we still cannot even say how the ball of atoms that form after conception have become a life form, let alone why they have began to split and the like - everything is just an educated guess.

What importance does how things have started really have though? Will it assist us in this life we are living? Same goes for how this world will end, why be concerned with it? The only thing that is real is THIS moment, the past is dead and the future is not born, THIS is the present, cherish THIS gift.
 
All mind can ever do is ask more questions, distract you from herenow.
 
IowaGuy said:
I have always thought of it the other way around: life can not be truly experienced without death being understood and embraced.

Once one overcomes their fear of death, life takes on a whole new perspective.
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Then we are talking the 'fear' of death and not 'death' itself? Fear is a psychological phenomenon, it can be overcome.
 
Etu Malku said:
Then we are talking the 'fear' of death and not 'death' itself? Fear is a psychological phenomenon, it can be overcome.
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Yes, if I may restate:

Life can not be truly experienced without the fear of death being understood and embraced, and ultimately overcome.
 
Etu Malku said:
Then we are talking the 'fear' of death and not 'death' itself? Fear is a psychological phenomenon, it can be overcome.
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Religion has come about through a deep curiosity of death, a surrendering and a want to know death before it finally happens.

Buddhism states this directly, it is probably the most honest and forthcoming religion there is. Sidhartha has ventured into the spiritual life solely in search of the permanent upon realizing his own mortality. That is the sole catalyst, and it is truly beautiful.

He has become so adamant of finding that which is permanent that nothing else matters to him at all, and yet from a life of utter luxury his ego has become attached to creating utter poverty. Within a single night, realizing his own stupidity, Sidhartha has become enlightened. Such a simply statement has caused it - too loose, the guitar string cannot play, too tight, it will simply snap. He has realized that now he is too tight, and before he was too loose, he has gone deeply into what might be in the middle - how to create that perfectly tuned guitar within your own being?

Truly the most beautiful man to ever walk this earth, yet I cannot say he is the most beautiful possible. He has fought tooth and nail to exclude women, why? Well, it has a definite reason, his path has been utterly masculine and he knows it. He knows that the female presence will not only create difficulty for his disciples, but that they would ultimately change his message into something else. It has happened, he was an utterly logical man and yet now many Buddhists have become worshipers - it is the feminine way.
 
Lunitik said:
Truly the most beautiful man to ever walk this earth, yet I cannot say he is the most beautiful possible. He has fought tooth and nail to exclude women, why? Well, it has a definite reason, his path has been utterly masculine and he knows it. He knows that the female presence will not only create difficulty for his disciples, but that they would ultimately change his message into something else. It has happened, he was an utterly logical man and yet now many Buddhists have become worshipers - it is the feminine way.
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What in the heck are you going on about now? I really like the lines Subha the Buddhist nun gained from Buddhism to deal with cads. :p

Subha Jivakambavanika: Subha and the Libertine
"What do you assume of any essence, here in this cemetery grower, filled with corpses, this body destined to break up? What do you see when you look at me, you who are out of your mind?"
​
Is that it? Do women drive men out of their minds? Or do men decide to let go of mindfulness?

Lunitik said:
It has happened, he was an utterly logical man and yet now many Buddhists have become worshipers - it is the feminine way.
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Oh gee wiz! This is the man saying this from the sutta:
"You are young & not bad-looking, what need do you have for going forth? Throw off your ochre robe — Come, let's delight in the flowering forest. A sweetness they exude from all around, the towering trees with their pollen. The beginning of spring is a pleasant season — Come, let's delight in the flowering forest. The trees with their blossoming tips moan, as it were, in the breeze: What delight will you have if you plunge into the forest alone? Frequented by herds of wild beasts, disturbed by elephants rutting & aroused: you want to go unaccompanied into the great, lonely, frightening forest? Like a doll made of gold, you will go about, like a goddess in the gardens of heaven. With delicate, smooth Kasi fabrics, you will shine, O beauty without compare. I would be under your power if we were to dwell in the wood. For there is no creature dearer to me than you, O nymph with the languid regard. If you do as I ask, happy, come live in my house. Dwelling in the calm of a palace, have women wait on you, wear delicate Kasi fabrics, adorn yourself with garlands & creams. I will make you many & varied ornaments of gold, jewels, & pearls.
​
He's the one who seems to be offering "worship."
 
seattlegal said:
What in the heck are you going on about now? I really like the lines Subha the Buddhist nun gained from Buddhism to deal with cads. :p

Subha Jivakambavanika: Subha and the Libertine
"What do you assume of any essence, here in this cemetery grower, filled with corpses, this body destined to break up? What do you see when you look at me, you who are out of your mind?"
​
Is that it? Do women drive men out of their minds? Or do men decide to let go of mindfulness?
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She does not mean it as insane...

seattlegal said:
Oh gee wiz! This is the man saying this from the sutta:
"You are young & not bad-looking, what need do you have for going forth? Throw off your ochre robe — Come, let's delight in the flowering forest. A sweetness they exude from all around, the towering trees with their pollen. The beginning of spring is a pleasant season — Come, let's delight in the flowering forest. The trees with their blossoming tips moan, as it were, in the breeze: What delight will you have if you plunge into the forest alone? Frequented by herds of wild beasts, disturbed by elephants rutting & aroused: you want to go unaccompanied into the great, lonely, frightening forest? Like a doll made of gold, you will go about, like a goddess in the gardens of heaven. With delicate, smooth Kasi fabrics, you will shine, O beauty without compare. I would be under your power if we were to dwell in the wood. For there is no creature dearer to me than you, O nymph with the languid regard. If you do as I ask, happy, come live in my house. Dwelling in the calm of a palace, have women wait on you, wear delicate Kasi fabrics, adorn yourself with garlands & creams. I will make you many & varied ornaments of gold, jewels, & pearls.
​
He's the one who seems to be offering "worship."
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For starters, Buddha was enlightened obviously when he is supposed to have said this, thus male and female are merged in him, yet still there is a difficulty in believing this is Buddha and even more I question why the reciter has decided to include this utter irrelevance? I would perhaps suggest it is the disciple reminiscing on what he has lost, his master.
 
Lunitik said:
She does not mean it as insane...



For starters, Buddha was enlightened obviously when he is supposed to have said this, thus male and female are merged in him, yet still there is a difficulty in believing this is Buddha and even more I question why the reciter has decided to include this utter irrelevance? I would perhaps suggest it is the disciple reminiscing on what he has lost, his master.
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Well, this is the sort of stuff women have to put up with all the time. Pity you want to call it irrelevant.
 
seattlegal said:
Well, this is the sort of stuff women have to put up with all the time. Pity you want to call it irrelevant.
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It is irrelevant in that it does not remove desire, and neither does it assist in attaining nirvana. In fact, it is shockingly filled with bare desire, especially for a man that hasn't trusted his disciples to not become sexually aroused by any female initiates...

Also, it seems by your statement that similar statements have been a cause of suffering for you? Again, very distinct from Buddha's message.
 
It describes nirvana, perhaps, but describing it can only create desire... it is extremely harmful to do so.
 
Lunitik said:
It is irrelevant in that it does not remove desire, and neither does it assist in attaining nirvana. In fact, it is shockingly filled with bare desire, especially for a man that hasn't trusted his disciples to not become sexually aroused by any female initiates...

Also, it seems by your statement that similar statements have been a cause of suffering for you? Again, very distinct from Buddha's message.
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Did you even read the sutta? :confused:
This is the nun speaking:
"You want to stray from the road, you want the moon as a plaything, you want to jump over Mount Sineru, you who have designs on one born of the Buddha. For there is nothing anywhere at all in the world with its devas, that would be an object of passion for me. I don't even know what that passion would be, for it's been killed, root & all, by the path. Like embers from a pit — scattered, like a bowl of poison — evaporated, I don't even see what that passion would be, for it's been killed, root & all, by the path. Try to seduce one who hasn't reflected on this, or who the Master hasn't instructed. But try it with this one who knows and you do yourself violence. For whether insulted or worshiped, in pleasure or pain, my mindfulness stands firm.​
 
Perhaps this is the point of your confusion:

Lunitik said:
Buddhism states this directly, it is probably the most honest and forthcoming religion there is. Sidhartha has ventured into the spiritual life solely in search of the permanent upon realizing his own mortality. That is the sole catalyst, and it is truly beautiful.

He has become so adamant of finding that which is permanent that nothing else matters to him at all, and yet from a life of utter luxury his ego has become attached to creating utter poverty. Within a single night, realizing his own stupidity, Sidhartha has become enlightened. Such a simply statement has caused it - too loose, the guitar string cannot play, too tight, it will simply snap. He has realized that now he is too tight, and before he was too loose, he has gone deeply into what might be in the middle - how to create that perfectly tuned guitar within your own being?

Truly the most beautiful man to ever walk this earth, yet I cannot say he is the most beautiful possible. He has fought tooth and nail to exclude women, why? Well, it has a definite reason, his path has been utterly masculine and he knows it. He knows that the female presence will not only create difficulty for his disciples, but that they would ultimately change his message into something else. It has happened, he was an utterly logical man and yet now many Buddhists have become worshipers - it is the feminine way.
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To give you the correct information:

Buddha did not fight tooth and nail to exclude women--in fact he had many female students from the beginning. It is Mara who tried to exclude women: Soma Sutta: Soma
 
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