human nature - inherently good or evil?

[Lunitik]

perhaps you wouldnt find it so hard to believe if ithe bible teachings were taught correctly .

killing a fig tree out of prtty jealousy or the other statment ..
no where in the bible does it say such things .. you really should go to a different faith group if this is what they told you the bible says..

11:12 Now the next day, as they went out from Bethany, he was hungry. 13 After noticing in the distance a fig tree with leaves, he went to see if he could find any fruit on it. When he came to it he found nothing but leaves, for it was not the season for figs. 14 He said to it, “May no one ever eat fruit from you again.” And his disciples heard it. 15 Then they came to Jerusalem. Jesus entered the temple area and began to drive out those who were selling and buying in the temple courts. He turned over the tables of the money changers and the chairs of those selling doves, 16 and he would not permit anyone to carry merchandise through the temple courts. 17 Then he began to teach them and said, “Is it not written: ‘My house will be called a house of prayer for all nations’? But you have turned it into a den of robbers!” 18 The chief priests and the experts in the law heard it and they considered how they could assassinate him, for they feared him, because the whole crowd was amazed by his teaching. 19 When evening came, Jesus and his disciples went out of the city. 20 In the morning as they passed by, they saw the fig tree withered from the roots. 21 Peter remembered and said to him, “Rabbi, look! The fig tree you cursed has withered.” 22 Jesus said to them, “Have faith in God. 23 I tell you the truth, if someone says to this mountain, ‘Be lifted up and thrown into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. 24 For this reason I tell you, whatever you pray and ask for, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. 25 Whenever you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven will also forgive you your sins.”

It clearly says Jesus killed a fig tree out of selfishness - it had not given him what he want so he caused it to whither... there is a deeper significance, but this is one example that Jesus is just like the God in the Torah - very vengeful.

It is that if you do not bear fruits - if you do not do good works or satisfy God - you will be killed. Now, personally I am no more comfortable with the ramifications of this than the literal reading. If you have a different interpretation then I would enjoy reading it, but I do not see how anything positive or loving can come of this. No matter how you understand these verses it does not paint a pretty picture.

-----

The statement about HOW it came to be is greatly important, it is the purpose of prayer: co-creation. If you are pure of heart and ask for something of existence, it will come to be. There is another ramification though, if you are thinking negative things that too will come to pass - as shown here, Jesus has said the tree should cease and so it has... BE CAREFUL OF YOUR THOUGHTS, THEY ARE MORE IMPORTANT THAN YOUR ACTIONS!

This does not change what he chose to do... stopping mind can remove intent, there are no longer thoughts flowing through your head. If there are no thoughts, you do not cause fig trees to die for annoying you. This applies to all religions, since everyone is in fact one with the creator, and because your mind is closer to your consciousness than your body is it has a more significant impact. The whole course in the East is to stop the mind because then you have no impact at all, this is why the East is so poor - no one is desiring anything better for their community, yet there are few wars. In the West, everyone is taught to desire wealth and riches so they are better off materially, but they have ignored their nature and ignored that their benefits must be balanced, there is always war in the West.

Whether you accept it or not, your thoughts are directly impacting the world all the time.

 

[radarmark]

perhaps you wouldnt find it so hard to believe if ithe bible teachings were taught correctly .

killing a fig tree out of prtty jealousy or the other statment ..
no where in the bible does it say such things .. you really should go to a different faith group if this is what they told you the bible says..

Matthew 21:18-22 (I think) for the fig tree (also in Mark I beleive). 1Kings 7:23 for Pi=3. Joshua 10 (somewhere) for the "Sun standing still".

Sorry, but there are a million errors in the Bible, these are just the three I remember best. I am a Christian but I do not believe in reading it literally.

Peace and Love will conquer all, Radarmark

 

[Thomas]

It clearly says Jesus killed a fig tree out of selfishness

It's clear that you haven't the slightest clue what the Bible is saying. That reading of the text is so utterly superficial, it undermines every allowance I have made for you so far.

First off ond should take note that the term 'curse' in biblical parlance does not imply the same thing as it does to the modern mind. A “curse” was a pronouncement of judgment, not an intemperate act.

Second, one has to place the affair of the fig tree within the current of events. The story is of Christ's journey to Jerusalem, and the Passion, and the Cross, something which He had foretold, and something which the disciples seemed to have accepted.

"And the next day when they came out from Bethania, he was hungry." (v12) This begins the fig tree narrative. The journey to Jerusalem is the journey to the spiritual dentre of the Hebrew people, the Temple, and all is stands for, as the comment 'he was hungry' can signify the spiritual seeking of every pilgrimage.

He sees the fig tree from afar, draws near for sustenance, but there is no fruit offered, and at this point Jesus voices the judgement on the tree.

Next He enters the Temple, and finds the Court of the Gentiles has been turned into a marketplace. This, the outer court of the temple was, as its name suggests, the place where the Gentile could come and offer prayer to the God of Israel: "And he taught, saying to them: Is it not written, My house shall be called the house of prayer to all nations? But you have made it a den of thieves." (v17-18)

There is a parallel here then, between the fig tree and the temple. Both offer something at a distance, which is not realised when one is close at hand.

That which purports to be of God, and is not of God, is destined to a certain judgement. This is echoed in a number of parables, most notably in the Parable of the servant sent down to the vineyard, murdered by its keepers.

The pronouncement of the judgement on the fig is no different than the warning voiced through the prophets should Israel continue in its apostasy.

"And when they passed by in the morning they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots." (v20)
Peter remarks upon this, but what follows is not a criticism nor a condemnation, but the instruction to faith and forgiveness. The withering of the tree is not a show of strength, a gratuitous act of power, but a clear sign of the rewards of practiced deception (as was being practiced in the Temple). Over and over He stresses the need for faith in God, and the absolute need for forgiveness — he who will not forgive will not be forgiven.

There was good reason why Our Lord acted as he did on this occasion. It was not impulsive, nor a misguided, nor irresponsible. It was a clear and deliberate instruction.

Jesus is the Logos of God. He himself possesses the nature of deity, and as such, all the earth and its fullness are His. He has the sovereign right to use the elements of creation to show something to man who, limited in his knowledge, may not perceive directly. It might include the destruction of a tree, the destruction of a herd of swine (cf. Mk. 5:13), the destruction of Himself ...

God bless,

Thomas

 

[radarmark]

That is a good interpretation, the reason why I orginlly brought up the fig tree was to show that the literal reading of the Bible is not always the right thing to do. Okay, I was a litttle stronger, suggesting that the fig tree, pi=3, and the sun staying overhead are mistakes G!d made in "His Word" if you take it literally. Lunitik was just backing me up. If you read Mark or Matthew literally, without the context you are reading into it, it is a pretty petty and jelouse thing to do.

 

[Lunitik]

It's clear that you haven't the slightest clue what the Bible is saying. That reading of the text is so utterly superficial, it undermines every allowance I have made for you so far.

First off ond should take note that the term 'curse' in biblical parlance does not imply the same thing as it does to the modern mind. A “curse” was a pronouncement of judgment, not an intemperate act.

Second, one has to place the affair of the fig tree within the current of events. The story is of Christ's journey to Jerusalem, and the Passion, and the Cross, something which He had foretold, and something which the disciples seemed to have accepted.

"And the next day when they came out from Bethania, he was hungry." (v12) This begins the fig tree narrative. The journey to Jerusalem is the journey to the spiritual dentre of the Hebrew people, the Temple, and all is stands for, as the comment 'he was hungry' can signify the spiritual seeking of every pilgrimage.

He sees the fig tree from afar, draws near for sustenance, but there is no fruit offered, and at this point Jesus voices the judgement on the tree.

Next He enters the Temple, and finds the Court of the Gentiles has been turned into a marketplace. This, the outer court of the temple was, as its name suggests, the place where the Gentile could come and offer prayer to the God of Israel: "And he taught, saying to them: Is it not written, My house shall be called the house of prayer to all nations? But you have made it a den of thieves." (v17-18)

There is a parallel here then, between the fig tree and the temple. Both offer something at a distance, which is not realised when one is close at hand.

That which purports to be of God, and is not of God, is destined to a certain judgement. This is echoed in a number of parables, most notably in the Parable of the servant sent down to the vineyard, murdered by its keepers.

The pronouncement of the judgement on the fig is no different than the warning voiced through the prophets should Israel continue in its apostasy.

"And when they passed by in the morning they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots." (v20)
Peter remarks upon this, but what follows is not a criticism nor a condemnation, but the instruction to faith and forgiveness. The withering of the tree is not a show of strength, a gratuitous act of power, but a clear sign of the rewards of practiced deception (as was being practiced in the Temple). Over and over He stresses the need for faith in God, and the absolute need for forgiveness — he who will not forgive will not be forgiven.

There was good reason why Our Lord acted as he did on this occasion. It was not impulsive, nor a misguided, nor irresponsible. It was a clear and deliberate instruction.

Jesus is the Logos of God. He himself possesses the nature of deity, and as such, all the earth and its fullness are His. He has the sovereign right to use the elements of creation to show something to man who, limited in his knowledge, may not perceive directly. It might include the destruction of a tree, the destruction of a herd of swine (cf. Mk. 5:13), the destruction of Himself ...

God bless,

Thomas

How exactly does this differ from what I stated?

He has judged the fig tree for not bearing fruits, he has thus caused it to whither. It is not unlike the judgement of Sodom and Gomorrah, killing because God is not pleased. You have stated another instance of warning in the Bible, but why is this acceptable to you?

God, and in the moment with the fig tree, Jesus, are both full of desires. Buddha has said the nature of suffering is exactly this type of thing. This is exactly why Buddha says he has come to teach God's and men, because God must be suffering seeing how far we are from his desire. I find it difficult to understand how people can read these scriptures and be utterly comfortable with it.

 

[Etu Malku]

I'm of the opinion that both Good & Evil are purely subjective within a social structure and changes from one culture to another, from one time period to another.

One Man's Good is another Man's Evil . . . vice versa.

 

[Lunitik]

I understand completely WHY you justify these words, Thomas, you are completely identified with the tradition so your desire is to accept these things and you have found a way to do so. Jesus was hungry and the fig tree has not provided for him, in the Temple God has desired love and he is not being provided with it - they point at the same thing. Still, it is very petty, very vengeful. They want existence to bow to them completely, and punish when they do not.

Another huge problem I have with the Bible is the nature of saying men are sheep and Jesus is the Sheppard. It is hugely insulting, and it holds man down. If you are merely a sheep, always reliant on the Sheppard for everything, you will never mature. In society, we frown upon children that never become independent, that continue relying on their parents into their 20's but yet this whole religion is founded on the same principle - become a sheep, become totally reliant on another.

For me, this is disgusting - even if you try to justify it, rationalize it and understand what he is trying to say, it is utterly gross. His intent is to show that you should be utterly trusting of God - existence - and allow it to guide you. This is a horrible metaphor for saying this though because its exactly what Christians have gone on doing: they are sheep utterly at the whims of a book they are convinced is a letter from God.

 

[Lunitik]

Deep down, this shows the human capacity for laziness - sloth, one of the deadly sins. It is very convenient to know that another has already done everything necessary for you to be saved - for you to enter the after life. Heaven is also representative of another deadly sin, it is greed - if you do as you're told, you will get everything you ever desired in heaven. Then, just to ensure you behave, you are presented with a worse fear than death: eternal punishment.

I say that organized religion is the worst kind of sin, the ultimate bad. It is about control totally, the organization has gained power over those that follow and they have numbed society to the point most do not even see it. I love Christ, but Christianity goes against almost everything he has taught - for instance, he has said it is impossible for a rich man to enter the Kingdom yet the Pope is one of the richest on the planet... you will say it isn't his money, but he has control over it so what difference does it make whether it is ultimately his? Who lives in such luxury? Not even most Kings and Queens today, not even the Forbes rich list can compete. The whole organization is about gaining more and more power, there is a ranking system to travail - it is impossible that these men not be utterly egoistic, utterly sinful, they want to become the Pope. No country on this planet has as many subjects as the leader of Christianity, it is the ultimate ego trip - just in the opposite direction, ego is identifying with saintliness, it is even worse because at least you can easily point to the outwardly egotistical but many reading this will say it is not possible the Pope has an ego. The reality is that he has the largest ego of any Christian on earth because he has attained the most important seat in the faith. It is all politics, and he has won out, he is the most skilled politician in the faith.

I love Christ, much of what he has said is very valuable, but identification with him and loyalty to the organization that uses him for power is not going to help, it can only create a slavery. I have seen it in my own family - I attended a baptism, and attended the mass prior. The priest gave a certain instruction about something happening in the community of that Church and so every Christian in my family made it their mission to follow through on the instruction.

 

[luecy7]

Another huge problem I have with the Bible is the nature of saying men are sheep and Jesus is the Sheppard. It is hugely insulting, and it holds man down. If you are merely a sheep, always reliant on the Sheppard for everything, you will never mature. In society, we frown upon children that never become independent, that continue relying on their parents into their 20's but yet this whole religion is founded on the same principle - become a sheep, become totally reliant on another.

How is you search for a guru to follow working out for you? Bahahaad, looking for Dahahaad?

Per John 15:14-15, loose translation, Jesus said to his disciples: You are my friends if you may do whatever I command you. I no longer call you servants, because the servant does not know what his lord does, and I have called you friends because all things that I heard from my Father I made known to you.

Trouble? Images of a chain-of-command or a pyramid scheme? If so, you might look at the servant style deeds that Jesus did.

 

[Lunitik]

How is you search for a guru to follow working out for you? Bahahaad, looking for Dahahaad?

Per John 15:14-15, loose translation, Jesus said to his disciples: You are my friends if you may do whatever I command you. I no longer call you servants, because the servant does not know what his lord does, and I have called you friends because all things that I heard from my Father I made known to you.

Trouble? Images of a chain-of-command or a pyramid scheme? If so, you might look at the servant style deeds that Jesus did.

That is utterly different, the guru is alive, I can drink from him directly and he can customize his words to what will help me directly. Jesus is dead, he is no longer on this earth, you cannot drink from him although the metaphor is retained through the eucharist.

Your quote is quite convenient: you are not a servant provided you do as you're told. It is not a difference at all, he has just realized his original statement is insulting. What kind of servant doesn't know what the master does though? This is a strange statement indeed, what service are they providing if it is not part of the masters work? Even if they are only working in the house, there will be things around which will let the servant know.

It is funny you bring up his "servant" acts though, he is showing he is not above other men - he even later declares it directly - yet Christians go on placing Jesus on an unattainable plateau, such a distance that all they can do is worship him. They say he is the only begotten son, you are not that, yet Jesus himself says you can be the same as him. I have no problem with Christ, I have a problem with the tradition that gains power in his name, that has organized his rebellion and made it something gross.

In fact I love Jesus deeply, as I love all the enlightened ones.

 

[fadded blue jeans]

I and you are proof that human nature is evil. .. no mom in her right mind would leave a new born baby with a little older baby with out first at least putting mittens on the slightly older child so they dont scratch the eyes out of the little baby .. Little babys are OFTEN MURDERED by boy friends because no matter what they do they can't make the child stop crying . the baby could have just been feed and changed burped . but the baby wants what it wants .. little children playing in play pens have been known out of anger at the other child to maim the other child or kill it..

Psalm 51:5 (NIV84)
5 Surely I was sinful at birth,
sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

 

[wil]

.. Little babys are OFTEN MURDERED by boy friends because no matter what they do they can't make the child stop crying . the baby could have just been feed and changed burped . but the baby wants what it wants .. little children playing in play pens have been known out of anger at the other child to maim the other child or kill it..

Surely when you say OFTEN you really mean RARELY.

The contemplations here are just scary. Life is much better than the view provided here. I don't know who has filled your head with doom and gloom, but life is wonderful.

 

[fadded blue jeans]

Surely when you say OFTEN you really mean RARELY.

The contemplations here are just scary. Life is much better than the view provided here. I don't know who has filled your head with doom and gloom, but life is wonderful.

i will repeat infants are often murdered by the mother's boy friend and and around the world infants are commonly murdered by their own mothers . why society gives the nod and wink and says its a mothers right.

 

[Taoist]

Though i'm sure it has happened at some point i have never come across any mother that has killed her child and have most certainly never even heard of a case whether the mother has justified it as being her right to do so and society agreeing.

Personally i believe we humans are inherently compassionate and empathatic, and it is this trait only that separates us from the rest of nature; the capacity to feel the sadness of complete strangers.
I also believe that we are whatever we think we are, so social factors such as general experiences and upbringing affect the way we act. I also feel that responsibilty, or the lack thereof, is a reason for most evil - either blaming others for our actions, the distancing of oneself from personal identity through the subordination to our "superiors" or distancing oneself from the crime through ordering others to carry out the bidding.

 

[fadded blue jeans]

Though i'm sure it has happened at some point i have never come across any mother that has killed her child and have most certainly never even heard of a case whether the mother has justified it as being her right to do so and society agreeing.

Personally i believe we humans are inherently compassionate and empathatic, and it is this trait only that separates us from the rest of nature; the capacity to feel the sadness of complete strangers.
I also believe that we are whatever we think we are, so social factors such as general experiences and upbringing affect the way we act. I also feel that responsibilty, or the lack thereof, is a reason for most evil - either blaming others for our actions, the distancing of oneself from personal identity through the subordination to our "superiors" or distancing oneself from the crime through ordering others to carry out the bidding.

mothers have their infants muffed out to the tune of over 200,000
a year in the uk alone .. but you who living there are unfamilar with it..

 

[wil]

mothers have their infants muffed out to the tune of over 200,000
a year in the uk alone .. but you who living there are unfamilar with it..

Have you moved from speaking about boyfriends killing crying babies to abortion?

Please provide some links to statistics about these kids killing kids in thier cribs and boyfriends killing crying babies...

You need to back up your statements with some facts...so far you've provided none.

 

[radarmark]

Wil, do not expect an answer. I never got any replys when I called Fadded blue jeans' earlier bluffs. Let's face it, since the infant mortality rate in the UK is about 5 per 1000, her number gives you about 40,000,000 births per year and since the population is 68,000,000... that means each female in the UK gives birth to more than one child per year. That does not work.

Pax et amore vincunt omnia, radarmark.

 

[luecy7]

That is utterly different, the guru is alive, I can drink from him directly and he can customize his words to what will help me directly. Jesus is dead, he is no longer on this earth, you cannot drink from him although the metaphor is retained through the eucharist.

Yes and no.

Your quote is quite convenient: you are not a servant provided you do as you're told. It is not a difference at all, he has just realized his original statement is insulting.

You don't see the difference between a friend and a servant?

What kind of servant doesn't know what the master does though?

The kind that involves a sale. Also, Government.

This is a strange statement indeed, what service are they providing if it is not part of the masters work? Even if they are only working in the house, there will be things around which will let the servant know.

So you think the house is the guru. I refer you back to your first statement.

It is funny you bring up his "servant" acts though, he is showing he is not above other men - he even later declares it directly - yet Christians go on placing Jesus on an unattainable plateau, such a distance that all they can do is worship him.

Remember: What you say upon what he was showing is telling not about him, but about you.

They say he is the only begotten son, you are not that, yet Jesus himself says you can be the same as him. I have no problem with Christ, I have a problem with the tradition that gains power in his name, that has organized his rebellion and made it something gross.

What if Christ has a problem with you?

In fact I love Jesus deeply, as I love all the enlightened ones.

So going back to your first statement, you say he is dead: How exactly is it that you love the dead?! Would this form of love be in a horror movie?

 

[Thomas]

How exactly does this differ from what I stated?

Because all you see is the literal interpretation. I'm talking about the spiritual interpretation.

He has judged the fig tree for not bearing fruits, he has thus caused it to whither. It is not unlike the judgement of Sodom and Gomorrah, killing because God is not pleased.

It is not like Sodom and Gomorrah at all ...

God, and in the moment with the fig tree, Jesus, are both full of desires.

No, they're not. It's you who don't understand how to read what you're reading.

I find it difficult to understand how people can read these scriptures and be utterly comfortable with it.

It never occurs to you that the error might be yours?

God bless,

Thomas

 

[Thomas]

I understand completely WHY you justify these words, Thomas, you are completely identified with the tradition ...

To some degree yes ... but the issue here is you do not understand the tradition at all, your reading of it is utterly superficial and naive.

Another huge problem I have with the Bible is the nature of saying men are sheep and Jesus is the Sheppard.

Good grief, are you really this opaque?

His intent is to show that you should be utterly trusting of God - existence -

Is that what you think God is? No wonder the Christian tradition flies straight over your head, you don't even fathom the basics.

God bless,

Thomas