agnosticism

[luecy7]

"Conscientious Objector" doesn't get you out of military service anymore . . . neither from here.

EM-- the Army reg you list is not the pertinent United States Code. It applies only to memebers of the U.S. Army. See U.S. Code Title 50. Believe me, Brethren, Mennonites, and the Religious Scociety of Friends (the three traditional Peace Churches) will never allow C.O. status to any military service to be repealed. We fought way too long for it.

Which man or woman in this world can make another person do something against their will? None! Nobody has to fight for their right to be a conscientious objector. It is God given, and it can not be removed by any man, woman, or government. Not a single government or military in the world can make a person fight.

 

[Etu Malku]

Which man or woman in this world can make another person do something against their will? None! Nobody has to fight for their right to be a conscientious objector. It is God given, and it thus can not be removed by any man, woman, or government. Not a single government or military in the world can make a person fight.

I'm afraid everyday people are made to do things against their Will. Life is almost set up to prevent us from going along with our True Will.

 

[radarmark]

Luecy7, goota side with EM on this... many a Brethern, Mennonite, and Quaker have died for the right to be a consciencious objector (Hitler did a number on all 3 in Germany)

 

[luecy7]

I'm afraid everyday people are made to do things against their Will. Life is almost set up to prevent us from going along with our True Will.

Made by whom?

 

[luecy7]

Luecy7, goota side with EM on this... many a Brethern, Mennonite, and Quaker have died for the right to be a consciencious objector (Hitler did a number on all 3 in Germany)

Did they fight with words, or with weapons? What does a conscientious objector fight with: words, or weapons?

 

[radarmark]

No, they were sent to the Death Camps because they would not fight.

 

[luecy7]

No, they were sent to the Death Camps because they would not fight.

Clearly the right to conscientiously object existed before them.

 

[Etu Malku]

Made by whom?

I'm talking about in general, but we can stay with the military. There are countries today that military service is mandatory for almost all the populace, this is but one thing that would go against someone's Will. Some cultures of old, like the Spartans, took the child and indoctrinated them into being a warrior, no if ends or buts.
I mean really, you can look around and see plenty of people not doing what their Will would dictate.

Religiously, I am speaking about the difference between: Thy Will Be Done (god) & My Will Be Done (you). When one is under the influence of a religion they are following the Will of another, not their own Will.

 

[Etu Malku]

Did they fight with words, or with weapons? What does a conscientious objector fight with: words, or weapons?

An intelligent conscientious objector uses the Law to protect them, when governments do not have such Laws in place, these people either die or do what they are engaged to do, fight.

Luecy, where do you live, if I may ask?

 

[seattlegal]

I'm talking about in general, but we can stay with the military. There are countries today that military service is mandatory for almost all the populace, this is but one thing that would go against someone's Will. Some cultures of old, like the Spartans, took the child and indoctrinated them into being a warrior, no if ends or buts.
I mean really, you can look around and see plenty of people not doing what their Will would dictate.

Yeah, it's difficult to drive forward when someone reverses the transmission linkage, so you drive in reverse when the gearshift says you are going forward.

Religiously, I am speaking about the difference between: Thy Will Be Done (god) & My Will Be Done (you). When one is under the influence of a religion they are following the Will of another, not their own Will.

Some religions are all about getting all the gears set correctly and learning the rules of the road, rather than submitting to another's will.

{Maybe this is more in line with the "Human Nature--Inherently Good or Evil" thread?}

 

[radarmark]

Luecy7, do you not see that rights only exist in a sociological framework. Religious pacifists do not have the right to become COs in the Third Reich. Nor did they in the USA until pressure was put on Washington (Roosevelt's administration) to change the law so that COs did not have to serve at all. Before then, the CO still had to serve in the military (WWI and Civil War Era). Again, a lot of Brtheren, Mennonites, and Quakers spent a lot of time in prison for refusing conscription.

 

[luecy7]

Luecy7, do you not see that rights only exist in a sociological framework. Religious pacifists do not have the right to become COs in the Third Reich. Nor did they in the USA until pressure was put on Washington (Roosevelt's administration) to change the law so that COs did not have to serve at all. Before then, the CO still had to serve in the military (WWI and Civil War Era). Again, a lot of Brtheren, Mennonites, and Quakers spent a lot of time in prison for refusing conscription.

False. Give my liberty, or give me death. Death is an option, and not exactly a bad one. Everyone has God given rights whether the criminals of government put their beliefs on paper or not.

 

[luecy7]

An intelligent conscientious objector uses the Law to protect them, when governments do not have such Laws in place, these people either die or do what they are engaged to do, fight.

Is there a military who exposes their beliefs to their enemy with words? Is there a lawyer who does not have to use a gun, or force, to defend a position?

Luecy, where do you live, if I may ask?

Do you mean, which partition of land was I born in? What heard of cattle do I belong to? I spend most of my time in the SA. I don't really find it very United.

 

[radarmark]

False. Give my liberty, or give me death. Death is an option, and not exactly a bad one. Everyone has God given rights whether the criminals of government put their beliefs on paper or not.

Interesting concept. Deists created it. Ther are no rights listed in the Bible to my knowledge. If I have the right to be a CO and G!d gave me that right and (as it has been the case) a government kills me while I express that right, is it a right? You are entitled to your opinion, but that is not how most people use the term.

Pax et amore omnia vincunt!

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

No, I don't understand either how having the ability to die would be a god given gift.
If it was a discussion about our right to take our own life then yes, we have that right. And we might even go so far as to say that god would accept us if we took our lives (if that is how we want to interpret scripture). But that's not really what we're talking about.

 

[wil]

No, I don't understand either how having the ability to die would be a god given gift.

Wow could you imagine what it would be like if you couldn't die? No matter the state you were in, the age you became, the healing that couldn't happen, the cancer that wreaked havoc in your system or the bomb that blew you up in the war....but you couldn't die?

I'm going with gift, theist, atheist, or agnostic....death is a gift.

 

[Etu Malku]

Death is our Right, it is a Rite of Passage, a Transformation. The ancient Egyptian Laws of Kheperu embrace this Ouroboric cycle of the cosmos: Apophis/entropy/death/chaos - Khepri/transformation/rebirth/metamorphosis - Maat/order/balance/truth/law

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

Wow could you imagine what it would be like if you couldn't die? No matter the state you were in, the age you became, the healing that couldn't happen, the cancer that wreaked havoc in your system or the bomb that blew you up in the war....but you couldn't die?

I'm going with gift, theist, atheist, or agnostic....death is a gift.

I guess you could see it like that from a god-mad-things-this-way sort of way. But I'm from an atheist background so I don't think like that. What you are describing is...just weird from me.

 

[Gatekeeper]

Wow could you imagine what it would be like if you couldn't die? No matter the state you were in, the age you became, the healing that couldn't happen, the cancer that wreaked havoc in your system or the bomb that blew you up in the war....but you couldn't die?

I'm going with gift, theist, atheist, or agnostic....death is a gift.

We don't have a choice in the matter do we? I might consider death a gift if I had an option to live in contrast, but as is death is forced upon us all. Perhaps for some death is a merciful thing, but for for others death is not something desired at all. I guess it depends on circumstance, eh? For the mother who dies giving birth to her child, death hardly seems like a gift for the mother or the child. Death is simply a reality of life. It is neither a gift nor curse, just a reality we all face.

 

[Etu Malku]

For the mother who dies giving birth to her child, death hardly seems like a gift for the mother or the child. Death is simply a reality of life. It is neither a gift nor curse, just a reality we all face.

Amon to that!