agnosticism

[seattlegal]

Here lies my problem with Buddhism.
Whereas I think Buddhism is certainly one of the lesser evils in the world of Belief Systems, unfortunately it shares with other religions a very basic elemental flaw: A belief that the universe is in some fashion set up for our sake -- or at least set up in a manner conducive to our needs.
In Buddhism, it is expressed in the belief that there are cosmic laws that exist solely to process our "karma" and make it possible for us to "advance" in some fashion. This is one of the most fundamental problems with religions -- pretty much all religions.

Karma = intention. As someone for whom Will is so important, you should appreciate this.

People are falsely taught that there is something in or above the universe that has picked them out for special protection and consideration. Our existence is a product of luck, not divine intervention, and any improvements we achieve will be due to our own hard work, not cosmic process or karma.

Karma resides within the mind--the Eighth Consciousness, according to Buddhism (yogacara)

But what troubles me most about Buddhism is its implication that detachment from ordinary life is the surest route to salvation. Buddha's first step toward enlightenment was his abandonment of his wife and child. It seems legitimate to ask whether a path that turns away from aspects of life as essential as sexuality and parenthood is truly spiritual.

The very concept of enlightenment begins to look anti-spiritual, it suggests that life is a problem that can be solved, and should be, escaped.

Suffering, not life, is the problem to be solved.

Buddhism holds that enlightenment makes you morally infallible.

Um, no it does not.

Buddhism claims that perceiving yourself as in some sense unreal will make you happier and more compassionate. When you embrace your essential selflessness, "guilt, shame, embarrassment, self-doubt, and fear of failure ebb away and you become, contrary to expectation, a better neighbor." But most people are distressed by sensations of unreality.

The Buddhist concept of Anatta is often misunderstood. Instead of having a core essense of self that cannot be changed, one sees that such a thing cannot be found. (Subtle nuances in this respect can make all the difference.)

 

[seattlegal]

Karma = intention. As someone for whom Will is so important, you should appreciate this.

Oops! Forgot to include the link to Vajradhara's thread on it.

http://www.interfaith.org/forum/karma-the-penetrative-explanation-13947.html

 

[Lunitik]

Here lies my problem with Buddhism.
Whereas I think Buddhism is certainly one of the lesser evils in the world of Belief Systems, unfortunately it shares with other religions a very basic elemental flaw: A belief that the universe is in some fashion set up for our sake -- or at least set up in a manner conducive to our needs..

lol... how have you gathered this?

In fact, the principle - or you can say founding statement - is that suffering is inevitable exactly because it is NOT made to cater for us.

Our minds give us a single benefit: we can use it to encounter true eternal bliss.

In our normal state though, we are really not much different from animals at all.

 

[Etu Malku]

Karma = intention. As someone for whom Will is so important, you should appreciate this.

Don't get me wrong, I do accept Buddhism as a very good Belief System/Philosophy.
How does Karma equal intent? Isn't Karma the idea that what you put out returns to you? Intent is an act of purpose, in the here and now, not something that can return to you.

Suffering, not life, is the problem to be solved.

Suffering is part of physical existence, it just is and to propose it can be solved is not being honest in my opinion.

The Buddhist concept of Anatta is often misunderstood. Instead of having a core essense of self that cannot be changed, one sees that such a thing cannot be found. (Subtle nuances in this respect can make all the difference.)

Perhaps I do not understand it fully, but the Self can certainly be changed, and it can be changed because it exists, it is found.

Anatta equates the property of emergence with nonexistence. What is this “property of emergence”? The “self.” So it’s saying that, according to anatta, the “self” doesn’t exist. It’s nonexistent.“the Buddhist doctrine of anatta, which holds that the self is an illusion.”

Personally I don't agree with that, I know My Self, and I think most others do, how could it be an illusion and what evidences are there that it is?

 

[Etu Malku]

lol... how have you gathered this?

In fact, the principle - or you can say founding statement - is that suffering is inevitable exactly because it is NOT made to cater for us.

Our minds give us a single benefit: we can use it to encounter true eternal bliss.

In our normal state though, we are really not much different from animals at all.

But one does not need Buddhism to experience bliss, you can lie in a cool breeze by the ocean and fall into bliss, which is really just another form of trance induction, not some enlightened experience.

 

[Etu Malku]

In our normal state though, we are really not much different from animals at all.

Not sure about you, but I am quite different than any other animal on earth, I possess many things that other animals do not, and I think most people would agree with me (perhaps not here though )

 

[Lunitik]

Karma = intention. As someone for whom Will is so important, you should appreciate this.

Actually, it means action... more correctly the cause of cause and effect... I forget the word for reaction/effect though.

Karma resides within the mind--the Eighth Consciousness, according to Buddhism (yogacara)

Fundamentally incorrect, karma is one of the things which nirvana renders you free from, according to Buddha.

Suffering, not life, is the problem to be solved.

Please go back and check the Four Noble Truths.

The mission statement is a removal of suffering from the world, this is the Bodhisatva vow, a vow to not go into full enlightenment until every human being has attained.

The Buddhist concept of Anatta is often misunderstood. Instead of having a core essense of self that cannot be changed, one sees that such a thing cannot be found. (Subtle nuances in this respect can make all the difference.)

I go on saying this, yet again you think you are teaching me. You see my statements of death as something extreme, perhaps, but it simply means to cease to be. As it is, it is only a belief that there is such a thing as mind which is individual and unique. What, then, will you say is you? I go on pointing out that body also - according to science - is 99.99999999999% non-existential, so again we can say NO phenominon at all exists in reality. What, then, is the source of your notions of individuality? In the West, they cling to soul, what if mind simply convinces the part of the One that resides as you that you are distinct, when in reality you are simply part of the whole? What if all of this is simply the imagination of something higher... called Dharmakaya in Buddhism?

 

[Lunitik]

But one does not need Buddhism to experience bliss, you can lie in a cool breeze by the ocean and fall into bliss, which is really just another form of trance induction, not some enlightened experience.

In fact, Buddhism cannot deliver bliss... there is no possibility because it means you have identified with this title, ego has attached itself to spiritual words.

Only when you realize you are a Buddha yourself, then there is bliss. I do not mean logically arrived at, I mean directly encountered as absolute truth. It is very rare though, I can only think of one Buddha alive today that has remained in the Buddhist crowds and spoken publically from there.

 

[seattlegal]

Don't get me wrong, I do accept Buddhism as a very good Belief System/Philosophy.
How does Karma equal intent? Isn't Karma the idea that what you put out returns to you? Intent is an act of purpose, in the here and now, not something that can return to you.

Patterns and habits of thinking, clinging, and unskillfulness that are not part of the conscious mind.
You yourself assert that digging up stuff from deep within your psyche can result in changes in the objective world, no?

Suffering is part of physical existence, it just is and to propose it can be solved is not being honest in my opinion.

One can change your attitude towards it, dispelling fear, and one can develop skillful means by which to deal with it.

Perhaps I do not understand it fully, but the Self can certainly be changed, and it can be changed because it exists, it is found.

Of course you can change. If there was an unchangeable essence of self, how much could you really change and adapt? What kind of room would that leave for transformation?

Anatta equates the property of emergence with nonexistence. What is this “property of emergence”? The “self.” So it’s saying that, according to anatta, the “self” doesn’t exist. It’s nonexistent.“the Buddhist doctrine of anatta, which holds that the self is an illusion.”

Personally I don't agree with that, I know My Self, and I think most others do, how could it be an illusion and what evidences are there that it is?

Anatta - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Lunitik]

Not sure about you, but I am quite different than any other animal on earth, I possess many things that other animals do not, and I think most people would agree with me (perhaps not here though )

Existence does not allow carbon copies, every living thing is utterly unique.

What do you say is so different, though? You live in a house, you talk, and you use technology... what else?

 

[Lunitik]

When you live in blissfulness, when you overflow with love at all times, when even the energy of a blade of grass is appreciated and understood. When this world is known to be perfect, when it all simply makes sense, how will you suffer?

No, even death will be celebrated as the cresent of life rather than the termination.

 

[seattlegal]

But one does not need Buddhism to experience bliss, you can lie in a cool breeze by the ocean and fall into bliss, which is really just another form of trance induction, not some enlightened experience.

Translated as "suchness"
Tath?t?/Dharmat? - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Lunitik]

Translated as "suchness"
Tath?t?/Dharmat? - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Same as "Allah", which means "Isness"
Same as "Yahweh", which is simply knowing "I AM" - free from all else, although it infers discovering the true "I"
Moksha, of course, means let-go, residing in That
Nirvana is the result

Interesting how the same themes persist

 

[Etu Malku]

When you live in blissfulness, when you overflow with love at all times, when even the energy of a blade of grass is appreciated and understood. When this world is known to be perfect, when it all simply makes sense, how will you suffer?

No, even death will be celebrated as the cresent of life rather than the termination.

Well, in reality, as you sit there in your enlightened 'bliss' someone comes up behind you and smashes you in the head, you suffer pain and later suffer brain damage for the rest of your life, you also suffer because of the responsibility you are now to your loved ones because of your condition . . . how can 'bliss' avoid this? (severe I know but this is life and reality) no one escapes this as long as they are in a physical state, but we can experience blissful things here and then.

I don't know what happens after death so I couldn't comment.

 

[seattlegal]

Actually, it means action... more correctly the cause of cause and effect... I forget the word for reaction/effect though.

see Vaj's thread

Oops! Forgot to include the link to Vajradhara's thread on it.

http://www.interfaith.org/forum/karma-the-penetrative-explanation-13947.html

Fundamentally incorrect, karma is one of the things which nirvana renders you free from, according to Buddha.

See Vaj's thread above, as well as this yogacara text:
Eighth Consciousness

Please go back and check the Four Noble Truths.

The mission statement is a removal of suffering from the world, this is the Bodhisatva vow, a vow to not go into full enlightenment until every human being has attained.

Indeed.

I go on saying this, yet again you think you are teaching me.

This post was addressed to Etu malku.

You see my statements of death as something extreme, perhaps, but it simply means to cease to be.

What are you going on about?

As it is, it is only a belief that there is such a thing as mind which is individual and unique. What, then, will you say is you?

It cannot be found.

I go on pointing out that body also - according to science - is 99.99999999999% non-existential, so again we can say NO phenominon at all exists in reality.

You might want to check out this thread:
http://www.interfaith.org/forum/buddhist-philosophy-719.html
Madhyamika is what I am focusing on--

4. Madhyamika basically holds that there is no ultimate reality in the sense that something exists apart from the experiencer, but that this does not mean that there is nothing at all. It turns around the definition of Shunyata and therefore has been called Sunyatavada. Nagarjuna and Aryadeva are the main proponents. Chandrakirti expounds upon Nagarjuna.​

continued at link

What, then, is the source of your notions of individuality?

There are as many dhamma doors as there are possible combinations of hang-ups.

In the West, they cling to soul, what if mind simply convinces the part of the One that resides as you that you are distinct, when in reality you are simply part of the whole?

Buddhism does believe that everything is interconnected.
Prat?tyasamutp?da - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What if all of this is simply the imagination of something higher... called Dharmakaya in Buddhism?

What if it is? How will that relieve suffering in the here and now?

 

[seattlegal]

Well, in reality, as you sit there in your enlightened 'bliss' someone comes up behind you and smashes you in the head, you suffer pain and later suffer brain damage for the rest of your life, you also suffer because of the responsibility you are now to your loved ones because of your condition . . . how can 'bliss' avoid this? (severe I know but this is life and reality) no one escapes this as long as they are in a physical state, but we can experience blissful things here and then.

He's still quite attached to the blissful bosom of the void.

 

[Etu Malku]

Now, here too lies great confusion for me, Lunitik says one thing about Buddhism, Seattlegal says something else . . . how am I going to comprehend this Belief System when no one can explain it without contradiction?

 

[seattlegal]

Now, here too lies great confusion for me, Lunitik says one thing about Buddhism, Seattlegal says something else . . . how am I going to comprehend this Belief System when no one can explain it without contradiction?

Ask a Buddhist like Vajradhara.

Snoopy is a Buddhist, too. (I think he identifies himself as such)

 

[Lunitik]

Well, in reality, as you sit there in your enlightened 'bliss' someone comes up behind you and smashes you in the head, you suffer pain and later suffer brain damage for the rest of your life, you also suffer because of the responsibility you are now to your loved ones because of your condition . . . how can 'bliss' avoid this? (severe I know but this is life and reality) no one escapes this as long as they are in a physical state, but we can experience blissful things here and then.

I don't know what happens after death so I couldn't comment.

Let me ask, do you think that this injury would effect your being in any way at all? It will effect your ability to relate, but it is the same consciousness inside - the vehicle has simply become unuseful.

For me, it would absolutely be preferred to allow such injuries to play themselves out so that a new vehicle can be utilized, again, do you think your being will change in this? It is simply something which has been observed by that. In the vegetable state though, despite medical intervention, the being has departed - that is all the vehicle is without it.

 

[seattlegal]

Let me ask, do you think that this injury would effect your being in any way at all? It will effect your ability to relate, but it is the same consciousness inside - the vehicle has simply become unuseful.

For me, it would absolutely be preferred to allow such injuries to play themselves out so that a new vehicle can be utilized, again, do you think your being will change in this? It is simply something which has been observed by that. In the vegetable state though, despite medical intervention, the being has departed - that is all the vehicle is without it.

What kind of suffering would this bring to your family?