agnosticism

seattlegal said:
It is two truths as suffering is real as experienced by sentient beings. Not having compassion for these suffering sentient beings is truly the way of nihilism, imo.
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My attempts to bring people out of their deceptions is exactly out of compassion. Is any experience actually real, or is it simply temporary? You suffer because you see no way out, and yet the reality is that you were never in...

Have you heard of the story about the goose in the bottle, how to remove it without breaking the bottle or killing the goose? You will think of a million and one ways to try, but was it actually in? It is but a story, a problem I have created in your head. The head loves a puzzle, but it does not like merely accepting...

Your mind is the bottle, your being is the goose. You needn't break the bottle because the goose is already free... can you know it?
 
SG- good insight! Western or eastern, in-dwelling or outward-focused, the light within always is drawn to that of G!d in others. Mis eys iya yelo!

Panta Rhei!
Everything Flows
 
Allelyah said:
You are describing God at the area of continuous Holy Spirit or translation. There are two other areas and an area of separation.
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No, I am describing that separation which is aware of the three areas - that is all that truly is, all else arises in that.

Allelyah said:
What is causation and what is creativity and creative force is not discussing the same process places. Causation comes from the area of ALL and creation is caused to be done by The United Sets of Circumstances according to each ones appreciating experience with sights and sayings.
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You see how your mind is still creating distinctions? It is absolutely necessary for it to remain involved. You have still persisted with the duality of everything and nothing, and yet everything arises out of nothingness, they are not distinct at all.

Allelyah said:
You can understand what you are calling dreaming outside of divided areas where they are not understanding it completely. Imagination is not understood either by the area that is writing about it and they will come to understand differently and fully when they know how life understands to it, either continuously or back and forth. Life that "thinks" it is dreaming is not understanding reformations and aware experiences with multiplicity. You understand something about control that you can not continue to.
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You are correct that the translation from being to language is inaccurate and almost meaningless in its limitations. I saw it is as though you are dreaming because it is similarly distinct from what is usually considered being awake. For a few seconds while you are waking up, you think the dream was real, then gradually you see that it was not. It is much the same, you realize all that you thought was you is merely as a thought process that has arisen in the comic mind.

Allelyah said:
This is being received to you and you can understand that orientation correctly. There are words here that you will not continue to understand within what is your ultimate experience with what is whole. These words include (merging, finished, merely, fabricated, forget, taught, past, and own). You are understanding these words, not all of your words, from an area that God causes to be understood as "men in a man" when you are going back and forth.)
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Words are not undestood at all in that state, words are lower, in the communication center. Above this, there is experiencing as the whole and yet individuality is there. Then there is a state in which you simply are not - there is no posibility of recalling or saying that you are there. Returning, you will feel that it is time you have lost until you yourself are lost to it - often this only comes at death itself, but there are a few whose bodies are utilized further by existence.
 
Lunitik said:
My attempts to bring people out of their deceptions is exactly out of compassion. Is any experience actually real, or is it simply temporary? You suffer because you see no way out, and yet the reality is that you were never in...

Have you heard of the story about the goose in the bottle, how to remove it without breaking the bottle or killing the goose? You will think of a million and one ways to try, but was it actually in? It is but a story, a problem I have created in your head. The head loves a puzzle, but it does not like merely accepting...
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Have you heard about the story of the child in the womb, and how to get the child out without killing either the mother or the child? That suffering is real--not a deception.

Your mind is the bottle, your being is the goose. You needn't break the bottle because the goose is already free... can you know it?
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That does nothing to end the very real suffering going on. Sorry.
 
Lunitik said:
Is it two truths?

I assume you have separated the inward reality from that which is without, are they truly separate or is it simply the perception which is currently your reality? Is the outer reality real, or is it simply arising as a dream from within? Do you see that your experience is only what you permit yourself to perceive, believing it to be all there currently is?

Mind, body, feelings, they all arise in your own conscious awareness. When you are total in chopping wood or carrying water, will you even know these things? If you are aware of them, you are not totally lost to the task. Yet, it is all simply arising and falling in what is actually you - that is the only reality. It will seem anti-life, but in reality if you do not attach so much to these things, if you simply enjoy all that arises while it is here, there can be no more suffering. Suffering is because you reject what is in favor of something imagined, what is strange is that you are creativity itself, it is your very perception which has created your suffering... you have created the situation which now causes you to suffer.
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Do you want to know what a Zen master would do if you said this to him? He'd prolly pinch and twist your ear really hard and say, "Was that unreal?"
 
seattlegal said:
Have you heard about the story of the child in the womb, and how to get the child out without killing either the mother or the child? That suffering is real--not a deception.

That does nothing to end the very real suffering going on. Sorry.
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You have chosen to have the child, thus you have created your own suffering... this supports my point.
 
seattlegal said:
Do you want to know what a Zen master would do if you said this to him? He'd prolly pinch and twist your ear really hard and say, "Was that unreal?"
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"Yes" - he is speaking in past tense, it no longer is at all - it is at most a memory now.

I would not have to say anything to a Zen master though, he would understand my silence.
 
Lunitik said:
"Yes" - he is speaking in past tense, it no longer is at all - it is at most a memory now.

I would not have to say anything to a Zen master though, he would understand my silence.
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My sensei would prolly then hand you a disgustingly dirty coffee cup and two squares of toilet paper.
 
seattlegal said:
PTSD lingers

Speak for yourself!

Uh-huh......
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PTSD is merely an identification with a particular fear... it arises solely in mind, you simply cannot create a distance and watch it. I would suggest creating the situations in a controlled way where it is triggered and just looking at the absurdity of it.

There are situations where you perhaps did not choose to conceive, but how can you not choose to have the child?
 
Lunitik said:
PTSD is merely an identification with a particular fear... it arises solely in mind, you simply cannot create a distance and watch it. I would suggest creating the situations in a controlled way where it is triggered and just looking at the absurdity of it.
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No. PTSD also causes measurable physical changes within the body and changes the way the body responds to stress.
 
Lunitik said:
You have chosen to have the child, thus you have created your own suffering... this supports my point.
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So, in essence survival of the species introduces suffering in your world perception. In order to become Bliss we need to stop doing all things that create suffering? That is not being alive, it is awaiting death. Perhaps your mother should have taken your advice? ;)
 
Etu Malku said:
So, in essence survival of the species introduces suffering in your world perception. In order to become Bliss we need to stop doing all things that create suffering? That is not being alive, it is awaiting death. Perhaps your mother should have taken your advice? ;)
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So, in your opinion, life is about procreation?

There are enough birth control techniques and things like abortion to ensure the pleasure of sex can be experienced without contributing to the worlds overpopulation. I do not see how my statement is life-negative at all, I simply say it is a choice she has made to give birth in the first place. She needn't have gone through the experience whatsoever.

If everyone goes on having children as they please, this whole world will be as a third world nation, this earth simply cannot support many more people. It is why wars and disasters are perfectly good, it at least temporarily balances things a little.
 
Lunitik said:
So, in your opinion, life is about procreation?

There are enough birth control techniques and things like abortion to ensure the pleasure of sex can be experienced without contributing to the worlds overpopulation. I do not see how my statement is life-negative at all, I simply say it is a choice she has made to give birth in the first place. She needn't have gone through the experience whatsoever.
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First of all, birth control effectiveness rates are deceptive--if a contraceptive says it it is 90% effective, that means 90% chance PER YEAR of not getting pregnant. That means you can expect an average of at least one unplanned pregnancy every 10 years, barring any infertility problems. (Infertility affects up to 20% of couples in a given year.)

You can opt for having a tubal ligation--but I know women who have been surprised with pregnancy even after having the procedure done.

AND, if you are a young woman, and request a tubal ligation, odds are that you will be turned down. "You might not want children, but you meet a man who wants children?" is the usual line.

Sheesh. As if she is incapable of making the decision for herself. :rolleyes:

So, if you think women have all the freedom of choice you ascribe to them regarding this, think again.

If everyone goes on having children as they please, this whole world will be as a third world nation, this earth simply cannot support many more people. It is why wars and disasters are perfectly good, it at least temporarily balances things a little.
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Uh huh...
 
seattlegal said:
First of all, birth control effectiveness rates are deceptive--if a contraceptive says it it is 90% effective, that means 90% chance PER YEAR of not getting pregnant. That means you can expect an average of at least one unplanned pregnancy every 10 years, barring any infertility problems. (Infertility affects up to 20% of couples in a given year.)

You can opt for having a tubal ligation--but I know women who have been surprised with pregnancy even after having the procedure done.

AND, if you are a young woman, and request a tubal ligation, odds are that you will be turned down. "You might not want children, but you meet a man who wants children?" is the usual line.

Sheesh. As if she is incapable of making the decision for herself. :rolleyes:

So, if you think women have all the freedom of choice you ascribe to them regarding this, think again.
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You have simply ignored abortion.
 
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