Etu Malku
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I don't understand this question?
Are you asking if these people believed what they were doing was the right thing and for the good of themselves and/or others?
God to You
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Are you asking if these people believed what they were doing was the right thing and for the good of themselves and/or others?
radarmark
Quaker-in-the-Making
Yep, that is pretty much what the core of the parallel discussion seems to prove.
That is just the trouble (IMHO) with tribalism (be it Nazi or Commies or Christians or Jews or Hindus, gotta remember who shot Ghandiji). Let's use my "bunch of Native Americans sitting around the fire" analogy. The Hopi told his creation story and then the Seneca jsut said " interesting, let me think about it, this is our version." It did even get extended to moral codes of various nations. Much more civilized (oh no, I as a white boy just said that? yep)
You can "firm this up" by adding the element of "intersubjective objectivity" (pretty good discussions and articles on it as a Pragmatic view on the web).
If one is both a subjectivist and a relativist, logically it would not make sense (it is at least inconsistent, if not self-contradictory). I think such a group would wither away and die (did this happen to shakers, is it happening to quakers and UUs?). I believe it would be a real disadvantage because those brought up in the faith would see the problem (I think).
IMHO, of course. Some may be bad on their own (justification of slavery or misogyny or child abuse or polygamy). But check out "Forgotten Christianities" by Ehrman. The pre-Nicean diversity of Christianity really was much wider than it is today in some senses. My science fiction novel would be Tony LeHayne (or whatever his name is) founding a new religion and being voted into office as President & Prophet in Chief and trying to put the evils back in the box.
Pax et amore omnia vincunt!
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
No, I am asking what sort of trip/inner drama they were subjectively involved in that changed them in order to manifest such bloodshed in the objective world.
Etu Malku
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Ahhh, that of the warrior mind!
Fortunately, I have never had to experience this inner manifestation, so it would be difficult for me to say. Equally would be difficult to psychologically understand each of them and impossible to come up with one single answer that would explain them all.
radarmark
Quaker-in-the-Making
Oh, let me prostrate myself at your feet, SG. Such thoughts when discussing such beasts are not usual. It is beyond even we "Liberal Quakers" holding Perry and all the other Republican candidates "in the Light".
Pax et amore vincunt omnia!
Pax et amore vincunt omnia!
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
radarmark
Quaker-in-the-Making
It was sincerely meant as a compliment, my apologies, SG.
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
Bhaktajan II
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I posted "I do have the Bible on MY computer" {so as to study the references that where given me as a form of response to my query}
Why do you kick me in the groin, Cup of Tea?
At least you kick me in a metaphoric manner ... but I would care more for an attempt in providing a direct answer to esoteric traditions that (presumably has been practiced by COT) Interest me:
In regards to the Subject:
"[Traditional Western Religious RITUALS of SACRIFICE OFFERINGS'] thing that traditions provides is a common interpretation of scripture"
So I'll ask again:
Where did Sacrificial Rites originate? And what is the mytical goal sought by Sacrificial Rites? And what is the mechanics of Sacrificial Rites as deliniated in the Bible.
I am seeking authentic knowledgable reply.
Tangential comments are welcomed too.
Bhaktajan II
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Originally Posted by IowaGuy
I think another variable is one's view of absolute vs. relative truth.
This is a grand Fallacy of semantics.
Relative truth = one's own personal subjective sense-perception.
Absolute Truth = is not variable.
Fire burns = absolute Truth irregardless of the preceiver's perception and relative opinion.
Absolutes transcend mundane transmutaions.
Wood is an absolute great building product ---one's carpentry skills and use of twigs to retrive ants or build stream dams is relative.
Absolute truths are hidden.
Scientists as well as Columbus as well as test pilots seek Absolute Truths that are precise exact and map-able and thus repeatable ---but before that stage of final discovery a seeker has only the Relative Truths to work with.
The design for a human bicycle is absolute . . . it finally was constructed 150 years ago.
Was the science of bicycle technology hidden from mankind until the 19th century?
How about the better mouse trap anyone?
Lets start a University for mouse trap research and charge High fees to students for the honor? Any takers?
Or is the Absolute truth of mouse trap design all ready been revealed to those in the world that have a neccessity for such knowledge?
Godhead as the Absolute Truth is out there ---while we are paying our taxes and dying most exceedily fine.
IowaGuy
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Well, there ARE variables affecting how fire burns: oxygen and fuel and the presence of a flame. Does fire burn on the moon or on mars? And it is definitely NOT hidden, I can see it burning in front of me. So how is "fire burns" absolute truth according to your definitions above?
Care to try another definition of absolute truth? Or care to give another example of absolute truth besides "God"?Here are a few questions I have pondered, I would be curious to hear your response:
Can absolute truth be learned from a book? Or are observations needed for something to be verified as absolute truth?
Is absolute truth eternal or can it change? i.e. if something is an absolute truth today, has it been true for the entire lifetime of the universe? And will it be true for the rest of time?
How do you personally know if something is true if everything you perceive as "truth" is processed through your subjective mind with your biases and filters? i.e. how do you know "absolute truth" is not a product of your mind?
Gravity is a common example given by people arguing for the existence of absolute truth. If gravity is an absolute truth and not a relative/subjective truth, can you please tell me how long it takes a baseball (acted upon by gravity) to fall 5 feet from rest in the following examples? Please tell what equation you would use to calculate how long it takes for the baseball to travel 5 feet:
5 feet above earth’s surface
5 feet above moon’s surface
space shuttle in orbit 400km above earth
space ship traveling at 25,000 mph just above the moon
It is often said that "God" is absolute truth. It is also often said that "God" is beyond the comprehension of our feeble minds and beyond our capacity to prove his existence. If God is beyond our comprehension/measurement, can the same be said for absolute truth?
"There are no eternal facts, just as there is no absolute truth”
- Nietzsche
radarmark
Quaker-in-the-Making
IG, funny you should mention gravity. Check out my post #167 on "Ask a Spiritual Physicist". The solution to "The Submarine Paradox" of relativity is that gravity is relative. Therefore, assuming relativity is correct, gravity is no "absolute truth" because it changes from frame-of-reference to frame-of-reference. The mathematics is incredibly complex (calculating a relativistic bouyancy). So stick with the fire example if you need someone to take your word for it. Or I could send you link to the math, if you want.
Good logic thus far! Pax et amore omnia vincunt!
Good logic thus far! Pax et amore omnia vincunt!
Etu Malku
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These are objective truths, as the human mind expands its awareness, greater things are possible, that's all. It shows that natural selection and evolution is the cause and affect of what we have become and what we can become.
Subjective truths are a whole different animal, no one but no one knows whether any of these Divine theories are truths or not, and they don't 'reveal' themselves as our minds consciously expand, it's the same old story to this Passion Play.
Taking the Scientific path for objective truths and the agnostic path for subjective truths are, in my opinion, the better plan.
Bhaktajan II
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Did you notice the Grand Picture of the last Century?
HAs modern technology delivered less water pollution, and cheaper costs for the neccesities of life like food and shelter and protection?
Modern Life is a Consumer base economy of Propaganda Hustlers and Propaganda devotees.
Mass-consciousness brainwashing by the more intelligent organised bretheren amonst us.
The masses are not gettin a better lot from life when the status quo is to move away from the masses into gated communities.
War heros are treated like fools incarnate while vapid mongers get everyone to become indebted for material consumer goods inleiu of Civic evolution.
As Ying-Yang Duality will have it:
High-Class Polished animal life is not equalible to divine interests.
At the same time as one Ascended master is born, the same epoch bores unlimited degrees of foolish dolts.
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Did you notice the Grand Picture of the last Century?
Like Women got to Vote; child labor laws were passed; porclain toilets were distributed widely; electricity in every home; air-travel ---even in Prisons.
Then the 1920's ended.
We went to the Moon. And the heroin Trade reached it's Zenith.
The Stock Market is Higher then ever in History ---and we are in a world wide recession ---seems like Bogus Gurus have been leading retirees and Uni Student all into "a world wide recession".
As the new Age adage says:
"If You see something say something" [but don't state what it is in the Warning Posters that state this adage]
Plenty of world terrorism for everybody for each time and place under heaven.
Bhaktajan II
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Come to think about it . . .This must have occured to the Likes of Osama Bin Laden:
He must have thought "It's a new world and time. We should use technology to our advantage"
Maybe they'll simply start-up gambling Casinos on their own reservations one day [in each country] ... and then we can try ti bring down inflation too.
Some people are such romantic optimists [too bad for that fictional Romeo, though]
radarmark
Quaker-in-the-Making
B, maybe I am slow on the uptake, but I really do not get the point of the last two posts. Is it that objective "scientific truths" are disproved by everything you list? Is it that agnosticism is not "subjective truth"?
Pax et amore omnia vincunt!
Pax et amore omnia vincunt!
Etu Malku
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My full quote would have been
What does anything you posted have to do with Divine Truths revealing themselves?
Bhaktajan II
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I have been referring to Societies' World leaders especially in the last 100 years, who have led their society in war and death emass in the most hellacious ways.
Both the instigators and those on the defensive were destined to face horror as a result of the mass distribution of Technology.
IWO, false prophets have been leading large masses of people over the cliff into an existential no man's lands.
The leaders required followers and the two met at the right time and place in many world locales especially throughout the last century.
The Last Century is text-book example of Subjugation of the Masses ---in these instances many of these masses were not 3rd world refugees but highly cultured societies.
For example, "Look, they have invented a wireless radio & airplanes ---what will they think of next? We'll probably soon invent an Atomic Bomb . . .but then, what will we do with it? We need an enemy if that senario were to play itself out."
The Irony that transpires within the World of Ying/Yang Duality very insidiously manifests as sardonic tomfoolery.
Presently, History, puts us in a quagmire that is a reflection of the real fruits of our Works.
Yet we repose ourselves in the revelry of Socialites & Starlets and Dancing with the Star routines.
radarmark
Quaker-in-the-Making
AH HA! You may ignore all my posts to you today. You have answered all my questions with this one post! Thanks, friend
Pax et amore omnia vincunt!
Pax et amore omnia vincunt!
IowaGuy
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Subjugation of the masses is easier if they believe in "absolute truth". i.e. "I have the truth, follow me" or "God is on our side, they are our enemy." Any religious wars, with "God" on their particular side, use that logic.
Much more difficult to subjugate the masses if people actually think for themselves and have their own subjective truth independent of a book or Tradition.