The significance of the life and death of Jesus?

[Gatekeeper]

Most people view Jesus' death to be one of atonement, but I view it differently. It wasn't his death that atones, but rather it is his life. It was his dedication and determination to do God's will that was most important. The bible is chock full of do's and don'ts. Throughout the entire bible we have rules, laws, so called abominations, and a host of religious practices that are suppose to help us understand what God desires from us. All these things are inventions of man, not necessarily decree's from God (imo).


Since I believe that our ancestors thought they had the wisdom of God, I think they also thought themselves to be able to speak for him. The result was countless wars, the stoning of adulterous woman, the slaughter of infants, animal sacrifice, demonizing homosexuals, and a host of other cruelties. Jesus, instead of just telling us what to do, lived a life worthy of imitation, but contrary to popular belief, I don't think Jesus truly lived a "perfect" life. For instance, he made a scourge and drove out money changers in the temple because he lost his temper. He initially denied healing a woman's daughter who he referred to as a dog. Not to mention that he too grew in wisdom and in stature. Jesus even rebuked a man for calling him good.


To get more to the point: Jesus certainly gave his life for his friends. He called his disciples friends, so it was them who Jesus gave his life for, not us. You know when Peter cut off the guys ear? Had Jesus not rebuked Peter, what do you think would have happened? The rest would have fought to the death to save their master. They had two swords between them, and it would have been certain death had they continued to resist. Jesus knew this, just as he knew this day would come. No greater love! Jesus gave himself up in order to save the lives of his disciples. What did he do for the rest of us? He showed us the way of life. He showed us how to tap into God's grace. He showed us how to love, and what it meant to love. He wasn't perfect, but he was certainly much more righteous than the rest of us. The good news is that we too have the Spirit he lived through. We have access to the heart of God through love itself.


I obviously don't place the scriptures on a pedestal, but I do focus on the life and teachings of Jesus. Paul had good intentions I think, as did the rest of the NT writers, but they too were fallible men. I guess I quit trying to figure everything out with my head, and instead follow what love I'm able to conjure up in my heart. It can only grow by doing so, and I'll assume that if I neglect it, it will dissipate. I think we sometimes think too much, when we ought to be learning how to love instead. I personally don't think it matters if Jesus was raised or whether his death atones; He showed us how to live and live abundantly as a people. This is enough for me ....


With that being said, how do you view Jesus' life, death, and resurrection. Did his death truly atone our sins, does his resurrection truly matter?

 

[Lunitik]

How can anything of the events in the mans life atone for us here in the present? If he has already payed the price, why is hell still a threat many Christians jump to? Why must Christians confess and repent if Jesus has already paid for their wrongs and God already knows all that they do? If anything, I feel it has harmed the validity of the Christians arguments because it seems absolutely impossible to any reasonable person that raising from the dead was possible then. None of us were there to see this or any of the other miracles Jesus has supposedly performed, yet intelligent people are supposed to just accept it because their ancestors have for so long...

If it assists your life in a positive way, it is perfectly good to study the life of Jesus, but remember that every second spent in the documents is a second less for you to live yourself. Life itself is all the scripture necessary to reach the divine, simply be more aware of all going on around you - every day existence shows you something new, or at least gives you the opportunity if you would look. Just never forget that none of this needed to be, certainly you never needed to be, this alone should be enough for you to celebrate every moment - that it simply is, and you are here to enjoy it.

What more is there? Existence has given so much to you, what can you possibly do in return? Simply fill with love, and share that love with all you encounter - it too has been a gift, why will you hoard it?

 

[Gatekeeper]

How can anything of the events in the mans life atone for us here in the present? If anything, I feel it has harmed the validity of the Christians arguments because it seems absolutely impossible to any reasonable person that raising from the dead was possible then. None of us were there to see this or any of the other miracles Jesus has supposedly performed, yet intelligent people are supposed to just accept it because their ancestors have for so long...

If it assists your life in a positive way, it is perfectly good to study the life of Jesus, but remember that every second spent in the documents is a second less for you to live yourself. Life itself is all the scripture necessary to reach the divine, simply be more aware of all going on around you - every day existence shows you something new, or at least gives you the opportunity if you would look. Just never forget that none of this needed to be, certainly you never needed to be, this alone should be enough for you to celebrate every moment - that it simply is, and you are here to enjoy it.

I fully agree with your sentiments, lunitik. Life is simply too short to waste by burying our heads in a book. Sure, there is some really good stuff in there, but then there is a great deal of nasty stuff in there also. It makes much more sense, to me, to live life the best I know how, to contribute to society what I am able, and to lean on love more so than the muck that is often in my head.

 

[Thomas]

Hi Gatekeeper —

Most people view Jesus' death to be one of atonement ...

As a generalisation, yes, beyond that however, there is no strict dogma of atonement, it's still an open question. The Cross is pivotal, however.

... but I view it differently. It wasn't his death that atones, but rather it is his life.

I agree. Death is not something that interrupts life (unless under tragic circumstances), as many view it, it is part of life. Single moments might define a life as a whole, but it is a contraction, the single moment is given meaning by all that surrounds it. St John's Gospel is divided into two parts: The Book of Signs, and The Book of Glory, and Christ spoke often of 'the hour', so I would say His whole life was leading towards the Cross, and the accomplishment of what He came to do. That seems to be the way He saw it.

Luke, in his gospel, used the journey motif to signify this ... half the Gospel covers the trip to Jerusalem and thr events unfolding there.

It was his dedication and determination to do God's will that was most important.

Well that rather depends upon who one sees Jesus to be. For me, the stand-out fact is God communicates to man as man.

The bible is chock full of do's and don'ts.

As are all the world's sacra doctrina. No pain, no gain, as the saying goes.

'Freedom', someone once said, 'is slavery to the path of one's own choosing.' He was a cult leader who retired to Miami with millions in his pocket. So it goes (a la Vonnegut). If you walk the way, you don't see it quite so restrictively as others view it. when I was into martial arts, I used to train morning and evening. My brother-in-law trained at a club in the docks at Yokohama, where they beat the crap out of him every night. He became a World Champion. It depends whether we see the need to accommodate ourselves to whatever it is we seek, or whether we expect it to accommodate itself to us. Since the Enlightenment, we have laboured under the latter notion, a false agenda, but then men like Bacon were conviced that science would tame nature as a strong man would tame a wayward woman (His words, not mine, ladies!!!)

The Enlightenment was fundamentally wrong in that (as in so many things), and now we're paying the price, hiding behind technologies to blind ourselves to this simple fact.

The Bible is a Book of Love, addressed to a wayward and self-willed child.

All these things are inventions of man, not necessarily decree's from God (imo).

Well all knowledge is, to some degree, a fabrication, a construct, but I think 'invention' is pushing it too far. Is the athlete's training programme merely an invention that could be done away with? The musician's hours at the instrument? It's abundantly clear that man will do what he knows to be wrong if the end suits. Talk to a secular humanist, and they will have their do's and don'ts. Talk to a Deep Green adherent ... ouch!

Since I believe that our ancestors thought they had the wisdom of God, I think they also thought themselves to be able to speak for him.

Don't you speak to Him?

Well they certainly had access to wisdom, that's beyond dispute.

The result was countless wars, the stoning of adulterous woman, the slaughter of infants, animal sacrifice, demonizing homosexuals, and a host of other cruelties.

I tend to think this is an old saw, and a rather weak argument these days. Psychology shows that humanity will distort the sacred text, like any other, in its pursuit of power. It's also a fact that secular societies have done worse, so it can't be laid at thew foot of religion. We're killing 30,000 kids a day for cheap designer trainers ... and we don't have ignorance of the fact as an excuse.

I think humanity constantly looks for scapegoat arguments.

Jesus, instead of just telling us what to do, lived a life worthy of imitation...

The trouble is, no-one wants to imitate that life these days, as 'autonomy', 'independence' and 'freedom' are seen in very relative terms and considered as all important. Thomas Kempis wrote "The Imitation of Christ" and it was a best-seller for centuries. Not so much now ... too much humility and detachment for people's tastes.

but contrary to popular belief, I don't think Jesus truly lived a "perfect" life.

Well you're ploughing a hard furrow now ...

For instance, he made a scourge and drove out money changers in the temple because he lost his temper.

Not quite. He drove them out because they were despoiling the Court of the Gentiles. There is such a thing as 'righteous anger'. I think His response was measured and mannered. Read in context that thesis is supported. I would have thought you'd have picked up on the cursing of the fig.

He initially denied healing a woman's daughter who he referred to as a dog. Not to mention that he too grew in wisdom and in stature. Jesus even rebuked a man for calling him good.

And in these there are transcenental truths to be embraced, if one chooses to.

To get more to the point: Jesus certainly gave his life for his friends. He called his disciples friends, so it was them who Jesus gave his life for, not us.

No, you're quite wrong there ... He asked God to forgive His executioners. He never condemned anyone, rather He poited out how, by their actions, people condemn themselves.

You know when Peter cut off the guys ear? Had Jesus not rebuked Peter, what do you think would have happened? The rest would have fought to the death to save their master.

I doubt it. They were four against a considerable company sent out to arrest them. Peter was ever the wlful once ... it was a futile gesture, but a typical one. Here, at knifepoint, he's ready to take on the whole world. Later, warming his arse at the fireside, he collapses when asked a simple question.

What did he do for the rest of us? He showed us the way of life. He showed us how to tap into God's grace.

Oh, Gatekeeper, for shame! Do you have a partner? Did you win the love of another by finding out how to 'tap into it'? Do yopu regard God as some utility to be 'tapped into', like the web, or the electricity grid?

He showed us how to love, and what it meant to love.

I don't think so ... there are love poems older than He that cannot be said better. There are acts of love that have become mythological in their proportion.

I rather think He showed us we are loved ...

He wasn't perfect, but he was certainly much more righteous than the rest of us.

If that's true, then he's an egoist. I think He was perfect.

The good news is that we too have the Spirit he lived through. We have access to the heart of God through love itself.

By Him, through Him, in Him, with Him.

I obviously don't place the scriptures on a pedestal, but I do focus on the life and teachings of Jesus.

I think your interpretational horizon is somewhat self-oriented? It could do with some traditional commentary for balance.

Paul had good intentions I think, as did the rest of the NT writers, but they too were fallible men.

Then none of Scripture is reliable, is it, and it would be unwise to bvase any belief or opinion upon it. You should not build your life and views on what you know or understand to be fallible ... what if that bit about love you cling to is all pure 'invention'?

With that being said, how do you view Jesus' life, death, and resurrection. Did his death truly atone our sins, does his resurrection truly matter?

Yes. Absolutely. Not for what it tells us about us, but what it says about God.

God bless,

Thomas

 

[Thomas]

How can anything of the events in the mans life atone for us here in the present?

Because some events write themselves into history. Like the invention of the lever, or the wheel, the discovery of radio, or antibiotics ... or an idea.

If he has already payed the price, why is hell still a threat many Christians jump to?

Because we are free to accept or deny the love of God.

Why must Christians confess and repent if Jesus has already paid for their wrongs ...

See above.

and God already knows all that they do?

Now you're thinking about God as a thing like other things ...

If anything, I feel it has harmed the validity of the Christians arguments because it seems absolutely impossible to any reasonable person that raising from the dead was possible then.

Or, it took what is basically a humanist message and revealed a transcendent reality.

Look at it this way — many of the statements you make about various sacred doctrines indicate your assumptions are founded on little more than your own prejudice and opinion. Certainly it seems you think no-one is as capable of understanding the world's sacred texts as you ... and yet I continually point out where you have made an error of interpretation.

Therefore, any reasonable person should logically conclude that your interpretations of your own experience are as equally subjective, opinionated and liable to error.

None of us were there to see this or any of the other miracles Jesus has supposedly performed, yet intelligent people are supposed to just accept it because their ancestors have for so long...

You seem to be arguing from the lack of empirical proof, which a) is no argument in philosophy (lack of evidence is not an argument) and b) what you're talking about does not lie within the scope of empirical determination. Even today, some claim cures are miracles, some say the illness just ... cleared up ... but medicine will admit that sometimes things happen for which we have no empirical argument.

... but remember that every second spent in the documents is a second less for you to live yourself...

well here all the mystics of the world will refute you, and so will I.

There are two orders of knowing.
One, the kind of which you speak, is logical, reasonable, rational, accessible. One could say it's empirical knowing. even large areas of assumed faith, like the electric switch working, the web, and so on, is accepted in faith (without understanding) because of the empirical proof that surrounds it.

There is another order of knowledge, which is called ontic knowledge, which is knowledge that transmits the essence of what is know, so it's a knowing by being, rather than a knowing by facts. This is what we refer to as 'faith' — a faith which many ridicule because they can't see it, but which the faithful 'knows', even if they can't explain it (but which can be recognised, and tested).

Scripture, as anyone who has ever undertaken a serious study knows, is an ontic communication. So ever second spent 'in' Scripture is a moment 'in' the eternal. You're actually more real, more alive, than chasing the phantasms of the senses ...

Life itself is all the scripture necessary to reach the divine,

Yes it is, we call it the Book of Nature ... it enables us to reach, but not enter into.

... simply be more aware of all going on around you - every day existence shows you something new, or at least gives you the opportunity if you would look. Just never forget that none of this needed to be, certainly you never needed to be, this alone should be enough for you to celebrate every moment - that it simply is, and you are here to enjoy it.

Well of course. It's called wonder.

What more is there?

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
And mine, I dare say. Hamlet, Act I, Scene 5.

God bless,

Thomas

 

[Gatekeeper]

I agree. Death is not something that interrupts life (unless under tragic circumstances), as many view it, it is part of life. Single moments might define a life as a whole, but it is a contraction, the single moment is given meaning by all that surrounds it. St John's Gospel is divided into two parts: The Book of Signs, and The Book of Glory, and Christ spoke often of 'the hour', so I would say His whole life was leading towards the Cross, and the accomplishment of what He came to do. That seems to be the way He saw it.

Have you ever watched the show Sanford and Son? Fred seemed a bit preoccupied with his "hour" as well. Death is simply something we all know is coming, only we can never be quite sure when we will meet it.

Well that rather depends upon who one sees Jesus to be. For me, the stand-out fact is God communicates to man as man.

That is hardly a fact, Thomas. My view is that God speaks to man as love, and that we all have love dwelling inside of us.

As are all the world's sacra doctrina. No pain, no gain, as the saying goes.

... and what do you think makes it so difficult for mankind to love above all else? Love is certainly not an easy walk. We often take the path of resistance , no? It is painful for some to put away their differences and accept and extend love towards others.

'Freedom', someone once said, 'is slavery to the path of one's own choosing.' He was a cult leader who retired to Miami with millions in his pocket. So it goes (a la Vonnegut). If you walk the way, you don't see it quite so restrictively as others view it. when I was into martial arts, I used to train morning and evening. My brother-in-law trained at a club in the docks at Yokohama, where they beat the crap out of him every night. He became a World Champion. It depends whether we see the need to accommodate ourselves to whatever it is we seek, or whether we expect it to accommodate itself to us. Since the Enlightenment, we have laboured under the latter notion, a false agenda, but then men like Bacon were conviced that science would tame nature as a strong man would tame a wayward woman (His words, not mine, ladies!!!)

Wouldn't you say that love needs to be nurtured as well?

Well all knowledge is, to some degree, a fabrication, a construct, but I think 'invention' is pushing it too far. Is the athlete's training programme merely an invention that could be done away with? The musician's hours at the instrument? It's abundantly clear that man will do what he knows to be wrong if the end suits. Talk to a secular humanist, and they will have their do's and don'ts. Talk to a Deep Green adherent ... ouch!

Being that you suggest the bible is a book of love, are you suggesting that the bible is how we train ourselves to love?

Don't you speak to Him?

Good question! I guess I do from time to time, but I certainly cannot pretend to speak for him. My views belong to me, they are personal to me, adapted to who I am, so when I speak about issues of faith, I am merely sharing my point of reference.

Well they certainly had access to wisdom, that's beyond dispute.

I won't argue that .... Access and possession are two different birds.

I tend to think this is an old saw, and a rather weak argument these days. Psychology shows that humanity will distort the sacred text, like any other, in its pursuit of power. It's also a fact that secular societies have done worse, so it can't be laid at thew foot of religion. We're killing 30,000 kids a day for cheap designer trainers ... and we don't have ignorance of the fact as an excuse.

What makes you so sure those texts are "sacred" in the first place? Maybe to people like you, but to me it is just another book, and an old one at that.

I think humanity constantly looks for scapegoat arguments.

Obviously

The trouble is, no-one wants to imitate that life these days, as 'autonomy', 'independence' and 'freedom' are seen in very relative terms and considered as all important. Thomas Kempis wrote "The Imitation of Christ" and it was a best-seller for centuries. Not so much now ... too much humility and detachment for people's tastes.

That's too bad because Jesus' life is worthy of imitation. I guess most people want their cake and eat it too. They want a get out of jail free card without putting their time in.

Well you're ploughing a hard furrow now ...

Maybe, maybe not ....

Not quite. He drove them out because they were despoiling the Court of the Gentiles. There is such a thing as 'righteous anger'. I think His response was measured and mannered. Read in context that thesis is supported. I would have thought you'd have picked up on the cursing of the fig.

I missed one? Snap! I must be losing my touch. But seriously ... righteous anger? I'd say that there are times anger is justified, but by and large this is not the case. Besides, creating an instrument meant to cause pain and then using it on misguided people seems a little harsh. They were not truly harming anyone after all. Were they?

No, you're quite wrong there ... He asked God to forgive His executioners. He never condemned anyone, rather He poited out how, by their actions, people condemn themselves.

If Jesus' death truly atones, then why would he need to ask forgiveness for them? Wouldn't his death be enough? As far as being wrong about Jesus giving his life for his friends, and not necessarily us, why do you think I'm wrong.

I doubt it. They were four against a considerable company sent out to arrest them. Peter was ever the wlful once ... it was a futile gesture, but a typical one. Here, at knifepoint, he's ready to take on the whole world. Later, warming his arse at the fireside, he collapses when asked a simple question.

Really? If Jesus had not rebuked Peter, then the rest would have thought Peter was in line. Surely they would have followed suit, thinking Jesus could summon a legion of angels to defend them.

Oh, Gatekeeper, for shame! Do you have a partner? Did you win the love of another by finding out how to 'tap into it'? Do yopu regard God as some utility to be 'tapped into', like the web, or the electricity grid?

For shame? You use the bible to "tap" into the mind of God. What's so wrong with Jesus showing us how to "tap" in to his grace? The point is that we come to know God AND his grace through love.

I don't think so ... there are love poems older than He that cannot be said better. There are acts of love that have become mythological in their proportion.

Poetic musings are a far cry from walking the walk. Jesus was the epitome of love, surely!

I rather think He showed us we are loved ...

Yeah, the cross shows just that, right?

I think your interpretational horizon is somewhat self-oriented? It could do with some traditional commentary for balance.

If you say so ...

Then none of Scripture is reliable, is it, and it would be unwise to bvase any belief or opinion upon it. You should not build your life and views on what you know or understand to be fallible ... what if that bit about love you cling to is all pure 'invention'?

No harm no foul, as they say!

 

[Lunitik]

Because we are free to accept or deny the love of God.

No man reaches God through Christianity, no man ignores the fruits of Christianity - the crusades, the dark ages, witch trials, slaughters of millions of people ordered by the Church - and can be called righteous. Christianity is not the religion of Jesus, it is the religion of that idiot Paul, but even Christ has said "do not think I have come to bring peace, I have come to bring division..." but this is Holy to the Christians?

Holy means whole, yet Jesus tells us his mission is to divide, open your eyes. Just because you were born to a Christian home doesn't mean you have to waste your life to this idiocy, seek liberation through truth, do not let your mind find comfort in stupidity.

 

[Lunitik]

You seem to be arguing from the lack of empirical proof

A Christian is discussing proof?

Your whole faith relies on the concept of God, prove God is valid.

If there is no God to give Jesus his power to perform miracles, then show where Jesus' power has come from. You have not been witness to them but you believe them, prove they happened.

If Jesus is not a miracle worker, prove he is even a role model. He has cursed an innocent tree, he has lost his temper and destroyed the properties of others in the Synagogue, he has disrespected his mother repeatedly, he has called a woman a bitch (a female dog) in another fit of anger, etc... how is this worthy of being a role model? Prove for us why Jesus should even be looked up to and respected at all.

I will await your reply...

 

[Lunitik]

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
And mine, I dare say. Hamlet, Act I, Scene 5.

I do not bring a philosophy, I bring truth - you reject it in place of your idiocy and hearsay though.

 

[radarmark]

"With that being said, how do you view Jesus' life, death, and resurrection. Did his death truly atone our sins, does his resurrection truly matter?"

Jesus' life is kind of a template for how to do good. Like Abraham in SG's post on another thread. Or Gandhiji's. Especially when one digs into the various interpretations (Johannine vs pre-Marcian vs Q vs Thomas vs Marcion vs Gnostic). Each layer of interpretation brings a different view to bear as to who Jesus was and how he lived and how he died. Obviously sola scriptura is not considered by me.

His death is an act of obedience to G!d as a servant of G!d which transforms (in a way beyond) plan-obedience into sacrifice-redemption enabling an indwelling of the Holy Spirit within the eternal body of Christ in the Perusia ongoing. A mystical thing -- an act of faith, like awaiting top the house for giant eagle to fly one home to Israel. The Chistology here is that he lives and breathes yet.

I do not believe in atonement or original sin, so his death has nothing to do with taking away my sins.

His resurrection is again metaphorical (like his death) and spiritual. It is the call to redemption to action within the Body of Christ by emulating him in surrender and obedience to G!d (returning to our original face and uniting with the Kosmos to redeem ourselves and G!d). Kinda a combination of Star of Redemption and Katzanzakis within a Process Theology outer garment. Redemption of the World (G!d's plan) and the Redemption of G!d (G!d's need) in a path of total freedom.

Phew. I know how disconjointed and inconsistent and wierd that all is. It is very hard for me to translate the mystical experience into words that my mental experience can communicate with. There are echoes of George Fox, James Naylor, Rufus Jones, Matthew Fox, Nikos Katzanzakis, Frans Rosenzweig, Eckhart and the medival mystics all jumbled up and shaken. That is what it is like. I quake and I feel and I experience and I grok... then I look into my mind for ways I (and others) have communicated the Perusia, the Christ, the Becoming that is G!d.

 

[Gatekeeper]

Jesus' life is kind of a template for how to do good. Like Abraham in SG's post on another thread. Or Gandhiji's. Especially when one digs into the various interpretations (Johannine vs pre-Marcian vs Q vs Thomas vs Marcion vs Gnostic). Each layer of interpretation brings a different view to bear as to who Jesus was and how he lived and how he died. Obviously sola scriptura is not considered by me.

Who do you say Jesus was? Was he God, Son of God, or both? Do you think it is important how we view Jesus, whether as an enlightened man, or truly God in the flesh? I've seen some on these boards suggest that his life is not worthy of imitation, that he was too imperfect for them to desire to be like.

His death is an act of obedience to G!d as a servant of G!d which transforms (in a way beyond) plan-obedience into sacrifice-redemption enabling an indwelling of the Holy Spirit within the eternal body of Christ in the Perusia ongoing. A mystical thing -- an act of faith, like awaiting top the house for giant eagle to fly one home to Israel. The Chistology here is that he lives and breathes yet.

How was his death an act of obedience? He had no other choice as far as I can tell. He, like us, knew that he would one day die. It just so happened that he could not escape his captures this time. He knew it was time, and I can only assume it was his intuition that clued him in. Sure, he prayed for the cup to be removed, but he knew it was not going to happen, hence the whole "Not my will but thy will be done."

I do not believe in atonement or original sin, so his death has nothing to do with taking away my sins.

Agreed!

His resurrection is again metaphorical (like his death) and spiritual. It is the call to redemption to action within the Body of Christ by emulating him in surrender and obedience to G!d (returning to our original face and uniting with the Kosmos to redeem ourselves and G!d). Kinda a combination of Star of Redemption and Katzanzakis within a Process Theology outer garment. Redemption of the World (G!d's plan) and the Redemption of G!d (G!d's need) in a path of total freedom.

You suggest that God needs redemption. Why and how so? What does redemption mean to you also? You suggest the redemption of the world, which is God's plan (according to you) and the redemption of God, as if God needs to be redeemed, is somehow a path of freedom. Can you explain this further?

Phew. I know how disconjointed and inconsistent and wierd that all is. It is very hard for me to translate the mystical experience into words that my mental experience can communicate with. There are echoes of George Fox, James Naylor, Rufus Jones, Matthew Fox, Nikos Katzanzakis, Frans Rosenzweig, Eckhart and the medival mystics all jumbled up and shaken. That is what it is like. I quake and I feel and I experience and I grok... then I look into my mind for ways I (and others) have communicated the Perusia, the Christ, the Becoming that is G!d.

It's just a bit hard to follow is all.

 

[Thomas]

I do not bring a philosophy, I bring truth...

But that's the point ... you don't. What you consider truth is largely assumption, misguided opinion and bigotry — I have demonstrated that fact on more than one occasion.

Thomas

 

[mojobadshah]

Jesus gave himself up in order to save the lives of his disciples. What did he do for the rest of us? He showed us the way of life. He showed us how to tap into God's grace. He showed us how to love, and what it meant to love. He wasn't perfect, but he was certainly much more righteous than the rest of us. The good news is that we too have the Spirit he lived through. We have access to the heart of God through love itself.

Jesus represented everything that was good including "the truth" and through "the truth" he was the "the light, and the way," but Christianity at the foundational level was flawed because it was not a truly original creed. The faith derived a good deal of its religious heritage from creeds that were far more ancient and golden. Unless Jesus had walked in the spirit of this ancient faith his symbolic significance as the living truth must have been as flawed as Christianity was as an authority on what is "the truth" to show us "the way." Christianity at its onset was a subversive movement.

With that being said, how do you view Jesus' life, death, and resurrection. Did his death truly atone our sins, does his resurrection truly matter?

Matthew's version of the nativity was representative of "the search for truth." The resurrection was symbolic of the realization of the truth. Jesus' death was all about getting people to believe in the Church's version of the truth.

 

[Lunitik]

But that's the point ... you don't. What you consider truth is largely assumption, misguided opinion and bigotry — I have demonstrated that fact on more than one occasion.

You have done nothing but prove yourself a liar, you have said you have encountered a state of oneness, and yet you cling to others interpretations of it - those that have not encountered it but still theorize about it. They have merely seen reports of what I speak, and tried to lift their own beliefs above it. The very nature of comparison proves they have not experienced oneness though, for what is better and worse or higher and lower when there is but a single whole? It has no meaning at all, and yet you take it above truth...

 

[radarmark]

"Jesus' life is kind of a template for how to do good. Like Abraham in SG's post on another thread. Or Gandhiji's. Especially when one digs into the various interpretations (Johannine vs pre-Marcian vs Q vs Thomas vs Marcion vs Gnostic). Each layer of interpretation brings a different view to bear as to who Jesus was and how he lived and how he died. Obviously sola scriptura is not considered by me."

Who do you say Jesus was? Was he God, Son of God, or both? Do you think it is important how we view Jesus, whether as an enlightened man, or truly God in the flesh? I've seen some on these boards suggest that his life is not worthy of imitation, that he was too imperfect for them to desire to be like.

Jesus the man was a human being. Christ is the Logos. In the 2,000 or so years since he lived on earth his power as S!n and L!gos has transformed (for the better) many a life. It is the outer trappings of the Religions that (IMHO) unjustly use his name that are the problem... He is what He is, G!d-man as a singular and unique experience, eternally present.

"His death is an act of obedience to G!d as a servant of G!d which transforms (in a way beyond) plan-obedience into sacrifice-redemption enabling an indwelling of the Holy Spirit within the eternal body of Christ in the Perusia ongoing. A mystical thing -- an act of faith, like awaiting top the house for giant eagle to fly one home to Israel. The Chistology here is that he lives and breathes yet."

How was his death an act of obedience? He had no other choice as far as I can tell. He, like us, knew that he would one day die. It just so happened that he could not escape his captures this time. He knew it was time, and I can only assume it was his intuition that clued him in. Sure, he prayed for the cup to be removed, but he knew it was not going to happen, hence the whole "Not my will but thy will be done."

I am not speaking in terms of the "historical Jesus", and believe you are. He could have avoided the messy death he had. Like Gandhiji, he spread a light because of who he was, accepting the consequences. The Eastern and Oriental Johannine tradition is that the acceptance of death is an act of obeience.... making Jesus the suffering servant. Acts and Calvin (as much as I dislike his overall theology) also strongly suggest that there were many times Jesus could have avoided the Crucifixion.... but chose not to in obedience. In the historical Jesus line he could have (1) refused his calling (2) refused his baptism (3) not gone to Jerusalem (4) not allowed his Messanic claim (5) told Pontus he was no king. None of this he did.

"His resurrection is again metaphorical (like his death) and spiritual. It is the call to redemption to action within the Body of Christ by emulating him in surrender and obedience to G!d (returning to our original face and uniting with the Kosmos to redeem ourselves and G!d). Kinda a combination of Star of Redemption and Katzanzakis within a Process Theology outer garment."

You suggest that God needs redemption. Why and how so? What does redemption mean to you also? You suggest the redemption of the world, which is God's plan (according to you) and the redemption of God, as if God needs to be redeemed, is somehow a path of freedom. Can you explain this further?

Redemption is a process between Man and Creation. We redeem the world by acting in good faith, in loving-kindness, walk in the way. G!d created us and creation in order that the Divine Plan will play out. H! does not "know" what will happen, it is all incumbent on us. On us unting with Creation, with the Spark of G!d (S!phia or H!ly Spirit) in everything, and returning the Kosmos (all there is materially and mentally and spiritually) to H!m. But the action (the process, the becoming) is two-way. We are redeemed by G!d by heeding the revelation and G!d is redeemed (made whole?) by our bringing creation back to H!m. We are free to accept the burden (of evolving ourselves or not) and in accepting the burden (in obedience with G!d's plan) we free ourselves from self and matter.

I will have to take a break here.

 

[Lunitik]

H! does not "know" what will happen, it is all incumbent on us.

This is both true and false...

Time is a perception of change, but in reality the entire process happened in an instance, we merely watch it within our own interpretation of it. In this, we can say that it was not known during the process, but it has already happened and thus is known now.

Past, present and future are one, each meets at a certain point, and in that point there is each in it. This is how we perceive things such as ghosts, it is merely that past or future has become something we can perceive in the present. It is that man functions in a particular frequency in all his perceiving. In his perception of motion, he is aware only of forward momentum and this he calls time. It makes sense because he functions from his past, and now he is here, and later he will be there, it is logical. In reality, the future also is moving backwards, and he is the meeting place of both.

When you step beyond time, now you can prophecy, you can see what is coming because it too has already happened. This is why I say it is both, because while in the forward momentum it is not known, in the backwards momentum it is. Existence is beyond time and space, but mind is limited so it might better interact and know what has happened.

 

[Lunitik]

Man wishes to conceive of himself as important, what he has become identified with he wishes to consider superior to all else that he can justify its protection. This is naught but a projection of the ego, what you truly are is something else, but what fun is there if the answers were stated in the questions? It is like a treasure hunt, but you are the treasure, it is like hide and seek, but you hide from yourself. If you remembered this to be true, you would not investigate at all though, it would not be of interest.

Do not take my word for it, go deeper, play the game for yourself and see. It is the very fun of it, consider those that have found their way as guides but you must finish the game yourself. It is not enough to understand the rules, it is not enough to agree that the game is fun, you have to play to know.

 

[radarmark]

Your condensention is not really appreciated. From your too-self-focused attitude it is really easy to guess you are the beginner, Cricket!

 

[Lunitik]

Your condensention is not really appreciated. From your too-self-focused attitude it is really easy to guess you are the beginner, Cricket!

All that exists is the self, but to which self do I point?

You are stuck in the valley of knowledge, and consider yourself knowledgeable. You will be surprised to learn this is the first valley, yet all you have collected here you have identified with. There are still six more to traverse, but can you bring yourself to realize that all this knowledge you have acquired is worthless that you might climb the next mountain, and then enter the next valley? It will be impossible to traverse the mountain with such extra weight...

Please see that it is not your knowing anyway, you have simply memorized others words. The destination is not in the words, the words only point the way forward. They are as a map, but can you say you have been there because you can describe it by the map? See that this is what you are doing, for it is better to explore and get lost than to look on the map and never go there yourself. We have pictures of every part of this planet, and yet people still take vacations, they do not simply look at the pictures and pretend they went there. It simply isn't the same as experiencing for yourself...

 

[Princely]

Most people fail to see exactly why Jesus did what He did. He came to spread the truth the word of God. That was His mission. People try to understand in the way man thinks instead of finding out how God thinks.Jesus said he was sent to proclaim the good news of the kingdom of God. He said the reason the son of man was born and came into the world was to testify to the truth, and that Gods word is truth.His death and resurrection were merely an example of what happens to people who truly believe in Him and follow Him. They are dead in spirit but rise from the dead of spirit once they continue in His words and teachings. Like He said "What I have done that is what you must do. As the Father sent me that's how I send you".

As He said so do I;

I am the resurrection and the life; anyone who believes in me, even though he died, he will come to life, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die.

It is written in the prophets;

"The upright will dwell in the land ,the honest will remain in it.

The fear of the Lord prolongs life. The words of the upright save them.

The teaching of the wise is a fountain of life and those who walk uprightly fear the Lord.

The fear of the Lord is a fountain of life and happy is he who is kind to the poor.

The Lord’s delight is those who speak the truth, and those who speak what is right he loves

The Lord is far from the wicked, but he hears the prayer of the just .

The words of the Lord are upright and all His works are truthful. He loves justice and right".

All those who do right will rise to live,the evildoers will rise to be damned.

The reason I was born and the reason I came into the world is to testify to the truth. Anyone committed to the truth hears my voice.