Indeed it is.
In your post, you claim by right that which traditional Christianity says is a gift. In that sense it is the story of mankind, we make Adam's error over and over again.
God bless,
Thomas
Jesus Christ is come in the flesh = God?
- Thread starter Gatekeeper
- Start date
In your post, you claim by right that which traditional Christianity says is a gift. In that sense it is the story of mankind, we make Adam's error over and over again.
God bless,
Thomas
Of all the things I've been called blasphemous for, this is unique!
But knocking down the walls of Jericho and tilting at windmills is what we do, and one persons blasphemy is just anothers dogma.
radarmark
Quaker-in-the-Making
Originally Posted by Hermes
Seriously, can you back up any of your assertions with anything other than far fetched, conjectural innuendos. WHERE IN THE BIBLE THAT UNEQUIVOCALLY states or even alludes that Jesus, alone IS God? Give me your best shot, please....
It seems than the burden on proof is on you as I state that something it isn't (and may be considered even blasphemous by some) and it is you are who seemingly reading all sorts of nonsense into a book. We read and interpret it a way we see it, it is(BIBLE) esoteric and in places, makes no sense at all (old testament especially)...
And my original was "ah, you see, Hermes, you have just challenged G!d and Jesus as well as Princely. solipsism (the belief that the world is how you see it, by definition) may be laughable, may be false. But it is not falsifiable, good luck!"
I was inferring that Princely was an ideologue (proven by his reply). One does not have to refute Scriptural claims with Scripture. Words are words are words. I could use the daodeching or the popul vuh in response or get hung up in various translations and versions. But I realize that any of those three true paths would be questioned by Princely.
It just is not worth it, to me. I experience, hence I know, G!d/d!ss’s living presence, so what good are words?
P.S. Hermes, Princely did say that so you reply was more than justified.
I think so ... you'd need to compare sarx and soma across a number of texts, and also how they were deployed contemporary philosophical usage.
God bless,
Thomas
Gatekeeper
Shades of Reason
I'm no Greek scholar, but strongs suggests that sarx means exactly what I suggested in the op.
(by implication) human nature (with its frailties (physically or morally) and passions), or (specifically) a human being (as such): - carnal (-ly, + -ly minded), flesh ([-ly]).
radarmark
Quaker-in-the-Making
Indeed. The aramaic is similar, denoting "only flesh". Probably, the early Jesus Movement used to mean literally, Jesus was flesh and blood, a man. The "higher" readings (of John, say) would bring in the "human nature" ascpects.
So you have your choice, a primative "Jesus was flesh" or "Jesus was human". I like the more primative reading. This higher level (even if not given this way in the Greek) is really closer to "soma". One (or at least me) must take into consideration the differences in the generation of Jesus (where the spoke Aramaic and Kione) and the generations thereafter who spoke a more classical Greek).
So you have your choice, a primative "Jesus was flesh" or "Jesus was human". I like the more primative reading. This higher level (even if not given this way in the Greek) is really closer to "soma". One (or at least me) must take into consideration the differences in the generation of Jesus (where the spoke Aramaic and Kione) and the generations thereafter who spoke a more classical Greek).
Gatekeeper
Shades of Reason
I suppose I am considering other texts also to form my view.
Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
Jesus was like us in every way, able to be tempted, able to sin, yet he rose above and became a faithful high priest to us.
Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.
He was made perfect through the suffering of temptation, just as we are made perfect through suffering temptation, if we overcome as Jesus overcame. I'm reminded also of when he was tempted of Satan in the wilderness. I don't view Satan to be a literal being, but rather the part of man that desires something other than God's will for us. It's much like the good angel and bad angel standing on our shoulders cartoons.
Mathew 4:1-11
Nor am I, but I do suggest it's worth listening to what the scholars say.
Then might I suggest that's an over-simplification?
Take a look here, there's an interesting discussion on the issue.
God bless,
Thomas
H
Hermes
Guest
Thanks for the clarity...if you compare straight talk with ambiguity then the Bible is a storehouse in heavens. Certain things are clear and nearly irrefutable others are vague and anyone can assert anything into them, especially with an agenda and vivid imagination.
radarmark
Quaker-in-the-Making
Kewl, hope it helped, I agree with you (that and $2 may bet you a cup of coffee).
OK — try these:
He offers an improvement on the Decalogue in His own name.
He works miracles in His own name.
He forgives sin against God in His own name.
He says no-one gets to God but through Him.
He says He will raise Himself from the dead.
He says He will send the Holy Spirit of God in His name.
He says He is the Way.
He says He is the Truth.
He says He is the Life.
When accused of declaring His own divinity — He asserts it.
He says no man has seen God, but He who sees Him sees God.
He says everything God is, is His.
He says everything God has created, is His.
There are many other instances.
The problem is people read the text with a contemporary sensibility shaped in the wake of the Enlightenment, post-industrial Romanticism, Modernism and its offshoots, and not with the mind of the scribe (itself almost impossible — without the commentary of the tradition).
So the most profound statements are missed in their implication, which were nevertheless quite explicit in Jesus' day, which was why His audience sought to stone Him more than once for blasphemy, the accusation for which He was crucified.
In text-analysis and historical criticism, this is called sitz im Leben, the 'setting in place' (and time) ... without it, you're really not 'seeing' the text at all.
God bless,
Thomas
H
Hermes
Guest
Yes, Jesus claimed a certain divinity as the Quabbalistic or Tantric tradition would claim it. But the name Yod-He-Vav-He was unutterable by the Jews and there is no claim that Jesus said he was Yod-He-Vav-He . All Bible refs. allude to his esoteric interpretation of what becoming of an enlightened human being means. The commonly accepted esoteric notion of all having the sparkle of the divine but that does not make us God.
In addition some of the passages were altered in the old scripts and some were left out during the dark times of Constantine the "great".....
Just read a little of the Gnostic writers (some are excellent Bible scholars )to understand this. I admit I am not a bible scholar because the book has been tainted by lies and forgeries.
In addition some of the passages were altered in the old scripts and some were left out during the dark times of Constantine the "great".....
Just read a little of the Gnostic writers (some are excellent Bible scholars )to understand this. I admit I am not a bible scholar because the book has been tainted by lies and forgeries.
H
Hermes
Guest
Let me just add this; in the late Roman era creating minor gods was a fad.
When you set up on the task to wholesale convert the population of the known civilized world from paganism to a new religion, it is very convenient (and to some extent logical) to say "he was god" and "he died for our sins" but as with any lies there in no congruence and it feels funny when closely examined.
When you set up on the task to wholesale convert the population of the known civilized world from paganism to a new religion, it is very convenient (and to some extent logical) to say "he was god" and "he died for our sins" but as with any lies there in no congruence and it feels funny when closely examined.
B
Brad Watson Miami
Guest
Jesus the Christ = God incarnate
In the Spirituality Category, I just posted God & god, "Know ye not that ye are gods?"
If you had worded your question, "Jesus Christ is come in the flesh = god?", the answer is "Yes". Jesus son of Joseph was 'God incarnate'; he was thee god!
We all have eternal souls and we all pass through eternity by reincarnation. ~6,000 years ago, the eternal soul of Y'shua was incarnate as the 'God guy' of the Garden of Eden. Genesis details God incarnate cloning himself to create Adam in His image and clones Adam while changing a chromosone to create Eve. Genesis later documents God incarnate 'coming down from the heavens' in the story of the Tower of Babel (Ziggurat of Babylon). God incarnate appears again when Jacob/Yakov/Israel wrestles with him. Biblically, we don't see this eternal soul appear again in human form until He is born as son of Joseph & Mary.
Perhaps the Biggest dogma of Christianity is that the Christ will return again (E=mc2). God's 'chosen one' returns through the now scientific explanation of the Theory of Renativity and Reincarnation Theory & its 21 Principles.
The term 'Christian' originated as the first followers of the Christ were imitating him. Y'shua bar Yosef is to be imitated and everyone is a 'son or daughter of God'. Everyone is to be treated equally and receives one vote, however, it's a BIG mistake for anyone other than the one-reincarnated-soul-of-Jesus to think that they are 'equal' to God incarnate.
In the Spirituality Category, I just posted God & god, "Know ye not that ye are gods?"
If you had worded your question, "Jesus Christ is come in the flesh = god?", the answer is "Yes". Jesus son of Joseph was 'God incarnate'; he was thee god!
We all have eternal souls and we all pass through eternity by reincarnation. ~6,000 years ago, the eternal soul of Y'shua was incarnate as the 'God guy' of the Garden of Eden. Genesis details God incarnate cloning himself to create Adam in His image and clones Adam while changing a chromosone to create Eve. Genesis later documents God incarnate 'coming down from the heavens' in the story of the Tower of Babel (Ziggurat of Babylon). God incarnate appears again when Jacob/Yakov/Israel wrestles with him. Biblically, we don't see this eternal soul appear again in human form until He is born as son of Joseph & Mary.
Perhaps the Biggest dogma of Christianity is that the Christ will return again (E=mc2). God's 'chosen one' returns through the now scientific explanation of the Theory of Renativity and Reincarnation Theory & its 21 Principles.
The term 'Christian' originated as the first followers of the Christ were imitating him. Y'shua bar Yosef is to be imitated and everyone is a 'son or daughter of God'. Everyone is to be treated equally and receives one vote, however, it's a BIG mistake for anyone other than the one-reincarnated-soul-of-Jesus to think that they are 'equal' to God incarnate.
I really think that's an anachronism — that tradition as it stands today did not really develop until centuries after Christ.
I know it claims roots from the origins of man, and i do not dispute that, but I would suggest the common tradition as it stands today does not.
Immaterial, really.
John 8:58:
"Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say to you, before Abraham was made, I am."
As Scripture explicitly states, His audience was in no doubt about His claim to divinity.
Actually what you're doing is bringing prejudice to the text. You hold a non-Christian esoterism, and assume Christian doctrine must reference that, which is logically a nonsense.
This kind of syncretism just confuses the issue.
It fails to comprehend the true esoteric dimension of Incarnation.
Frithjof Schuon, perhaps one of the most important esoterists of the last century of so (according to his own claim, not forgetting René Guénon, who might describe himself otherwise) argued that Christianity is utterly esoteric, a point which many so-called esoterists fail to see. He thought it should have remained an esoteric realisation of exoteric Judaism, which I think offends both traditions.
Today 'esoteric' is applied to facts that are 'uncommon' — there are books full of 'esoteric data', as if that means anything.
This order of esoterism is, as one philosopher described, little more than 'knowledge with an ego', as what is esoteric to one, might be exoteric to another ...
Authentic esoterism is experiential, it is not an intellectual exercise, and Plato asserted that long ago. It's something the contemporary world conveniently ignores. (Authentic Christian gnosis is also experiential, rather than intellectual, and the higher aspects of Christian gnosis are non-experiential — true faith is a gnosis without compare.)
That is an esoteric error, as the tradition from which it derives asserts that only a very, very few (the pneumatic) have the spark. The many (psychic) don't have it but can be connected to it, and the vast majority (hylic) have no chance whatsoever...
The Cosmos, and everything in it, exists by the Grace of God, therefore the Cosmos, and everything in it, has a direct and immediate and Immanent relation to the Creator, by the virtue of the fact that it exists.
As Christian writers like Irenaeus, Ignatius, Clement, Origen, Justin and many others were active 100 years before Constantine, I think you've unwittingly been taken in by anti-Christian propoganda.
Likewise, the writings of Athanasius and Hilary of Poitiers on Christology and the Trinity put the argument quite succinctly.
Really? May I remind you that nearly all of what we know of the gnostic writers comes from the works of the aforementioned Irenaeus of Lyon, in which he clearly refutes their doctrines?
You've read "Adversus Haereses" — I assume ... or have you fallen prey to more propaganda?
Oh dear, I really think you've been taken in by someone. Where does this 'lies and forgeries' come from, and where is the evidence?
A survey done in the last decade, by scholars, looked at the various text sources and translations — and came to the conclusions that whilst there is evidence of redaction and addition, the fundamental aspects of the doctrine are common to all. They certainly found no evidence of lies, or forgeries.
God bless,
Thomas
Namaste Thomas,
Now I've not dug back into it page by page, but it seems most were quite in doubt of his divinity. The book is full of 'his audience' (as in those around him to which he was speaking) questioning his statements.
Even his gang of merry men had their doubts....err....Thomas.
taijasi
Gnōthi seauton
{//Rant mode ON. It's been awhile, time to unwind, so sensitive eyes - should put on shades. Get your grain of salt ready. And realize, most of you will smile, even if you roll your eyes. The rest? Ho hum.}
Actually, Thomas, there have been efforts - largely from the Roman Catholic Church, but also other branches of a more fundamentalist (and equally conservative) Christianity - to deface the Mystery Teachings ... but I don't think you can successfully stomp out the idea of the DIVINE [WHOM and Which is] present within every human being.
St. Paul, as you well know, was doing his best to address the Greeks who were somewhat still faithful to their own renditions of Ageless or Perennial flowings. The River Alph has always flowed underground; sometimes its waters may be constricted, other times they flow in abundance. It often, almost always, takes a Savior, an incarnated SON of GOD, to demonstrate the best way in each new Age to access these waters - and to do so safely.
Christed Jesus did his best to teach both the multitudes and the few who were READY to receive the Baptism by Fire and by Holy Spirit. Yet it was not the case that Christ Jesus brought that FIRE, or INSTILLED that Holy Spirit, as if it were something separate and alien to the `READY' Candidates in question.
For the multitudes, it can certainly be argued that the Christ had to speak very carefully, for He knew - as you do - that in any large gathering of people there will be something like a `lowest common denominator,' and the Goal is to reach EVERY Soul, not just the precious few. If the FEW that were chosen still echoes around in your mind, then we're back to the ones within whom, esoterically, the Christ within was already BORN.
And that BIRTH, symbolized by the Man in the CAVE (of the Heart), or the GROTTO ... oh gee, wait, don't I mean the stable, with the MANGER ... yes yes yes, details, details ... That BIRTH, we know, is UNIVERSAL.
A man is not held responsible for having never heard of Christianity or Jesus of Nazareth when he stands before the Powers that Be in the afterlife, asked to account for his accomplishments and shortcomings while on Earth. He may have been a good Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim or follower of the Wiccan Way ... and the Father (or some such) will pay no mind to his lip service and uttered CREEDs. What will be under scrutiny are RESULTS.
But the same Divine Potential lies latent in EVERY man's heart, REGARDLESS of individual conditions or conditioning ... and it is THIS which already is kindled into FLAME in the case of so many - often STIMULATED - hastened by the Christ (or another Master) for those who make themselves READY (giving the meaning to John the Baptist's indication of Christ as the BAPTIZER to come, also to Christ's ACTIONS during His Ministry).
The Christ Spirit - again spoken of as such by St. Paul and the other Apostles - does not depend upon or wait for the person of Jesus of Nazareth to do its work, however. Each PERSON, you, me or the guy at the grocers, does the work apparently for HIMSELF. That which (and WHO) is at work, of course, is the esoteric or Hidden Christ, if you can accept this as a PRINCIPLE.
Otherwise, we fall into the error of time and space, meaning that we limit and bind God the ALMIGHTY (Transcendent, the ABSOLUTE) ... to ONE historical time & place ... and pretty soon, you either KNEW Jesus, or you're - umm, screwed.
The Faith alone business will not fly. Otherwise, you may as well believe in the Buddha Shakyamuni, for HE told us that He was the Divine in direct incarnation or expression (keeping in mind the glamor, illusion and Maya that greatly affect our experiences, in the flesh), also. Then again, so did Sri Krishna, as have a long line - even an Apostolic Heritage (or Guru Parampara) - of Teachers ... EACH of Whom could not possibly be God the Transcendent in any kind of literal incarnation or expression, for this begs all sorts of questions. Pretty soon, my pet frog is God, and you had better believe it, because if you ask him he will ribbit, and you'll be the last to laugh.
Again, you will have missed God. But don't feel bad, any other time, it might be me, and you see ... the absudi~
No no, I'm really quite Sirius, so what I'm getting at is that there is no mystery here, even though we keep trying to invent one, and cover the REAL Mysteries up. Some can see the emperor's new clothes, and that means that all the tail-chasing is sort of amusing, in each new instance, but also kind of boring after awhile.
Progressive Revelation didn't stop with Jesus. It didn't stop with Nagarjuna or Aryasangha. Nor with Mohammad, or with Baha'u'llah, or H.P. Blavatksy or Alice Bailey. It won't come crashing to a halt when the Reappearance of the CHRIST (same one from last time, imho) has been much more widely accepted, or acknowledged as at least possible, given the pretty friggin' obvious SIGNS ... which plenty of us could LITERALLY SEE, sense, FEEL, touch and KNOW ~ however many odd years ago.
You see, there are those who are now long dead, who were well aware of the Reappearance - before the 19th Century ended. And I defy you to tell me that they were deluded or distracted or in any way deceived regarding the REVELATION which they Received. It is in print, or online, much of this ... as are the Divine Revelations from AGES prior to the birth of Jesus of Nazareth.
One day, people will realize that Christ (Jesus) becomes MORE, so much MORE, when He is LIFTED UP, in the true sense. So long as we keep him down ... by denying the Christ ... we do him, and God, and ourselves and others - a GREAT disservice.
Christ can be lifted up in many ways, but in name has pretty much NO meaning, if we are not drawing from that - from within... and here, if you're denying the Christ, the Hope of Glory, you'd better get to explaining, because St. Paul's not the only one who wonders whether you're just misguided, ignorant or perhaps truly out to do some damage.
Christ can be demonstrated by OUR actions. The LIVING, RISEN Christ is revealed, every day ... and this is not simply by a modern Mother Teresa or Gandhi ministering to the poor little ones, except where someone is able to recognize that these Little Ones, just as Christ said, ARE ALSO CHRIST. They are, because the man TOLD YOU THAT. I'm sorry it didn't get through to you yet.
DO IT to the least of these (whether children, people in 3rd world countries, poor people living in the slums of London or Dublin or New York, or criminals and rapists, murderers and thieves) ... and you HAVE done it unto Christ, just as to BEHOLD the Christ is to behold the Father.
Amazing what they DON'T teach in theology classes these days, and also what CHRIST HIMSELF could not clarify, apparently, except across the span of several, MANY incarnations ... for those here & there who far prefer a good thick commentary to anything like DIRECT or Divine REVELATION.
Personally, I prefer the ORIGINAL, and would like to use my own thinking cap, battered as it may be, or bewildered as I do SOMETIMES become ... rather than letting a bunch of highbrow, intellectually dry dead white guys do my thinking FOR me.
Do I KNOW that there is a Christ Principle, or a Christ within? Yes I do. And I know that this isn't because, every now & then, the Principle DESCENDS. It is already present, and if you had ANY clairvoyant skills to speak of (which I do NOT depend upon, or possess, physically or astrally speaking) ... you could verify that.
Sometimes, people argue hard, rail on AGAINST something ... because they want to hold to the status quo. Christ begged for the forgiveness of just such an offense, and worse, from upon the Cross. Indeed, THEY KNOW NOT what they do.
I would, perhaps I blush, but I WOULD - rather stir a small (and in the bigger scheme, insignificant) brood of vipers ... than keep tight-lipped when I observe a crime committed. Thus, I rail on, yet I do so PROMOTING the IDEA ... that:
CHRIST IS WITHIN YOU
If people on the CHRISTIANITY FORUM - and on this or related thread - have an issue with that, your battles are all before you. It will be uphill, and tough going, and in the end, you're going to eat humble pie. You will find, even if you'd rather NOT see, accept, understand, study, approach or otherwise KNOW that Christ ... that this CHRIST SPIRIT is far more significant in the end (as also from Alpha, through every STEP of the Way), than your dead man, of dead letters, and secret, silent whispers.
Christ taught that we should take the Gospel FORWARD, not entomb it in the narrow, UNadaptable and untenable wrappings of the past. It is possible to HONOR the Teachings of one's Fathers and of one's Family, while not enslaving ourselves to the same errors that either or both have made, largely out of custom - and of course, unbeknownst. WHO, knowing Truth, would hold recalcitrant and insist on falsehood?
Only one who still struggles with their difference or division, and on this matter, the Christ speaks as well. He brought a SWORD, and with it we may cleave falsehood from Truth, IF we aspire and apply. Unless your Vision of things equals that of God Almighty in terms of scope and accuracy, I dare say there is some cleavin' that better get to happ'nen.
Thomas knows that I pick on him from time to time, but only because he hasn't a clue when it comes to about a zillion other angels - wait, I mean angles - of approach ... on this CHRIST WITHIN matter. We may as well discuss Ahamkar/Ahankara if you would like to ask WHY it is that so many of us just don't see it ... the way I claim it is.
Then again, I don't think I'm the only one around here saying that the Christ SPIRIT isn't limited to the expression via Jesus of Nazareth, or that the same in found within all people, all times, all places. Arguing otherwise, is doing really disgusting things to what was ONCE a mighty fine horse.
In the last, it is OUR RESPONSE, or lack thereof, TO this Christ Principle ... which most defines us. Not just as Christians, but as Human Beings. For your see, we are the Divine CENTAUR. And primarily, at this stage of development, we are this MELD of animal and human, such that we are neither animal nor angel, but `in between.' The Angelic potential, or Spark of the Divine (which is more properly a Gateway to the Christ - and I will defy you to DIVIDE this Gate from its eventual `destination') ... will increasingly become evident, but this is gradual, and since when has evolution proceeded at breakneck pace?
God has ... all the time in the Cosmos. For Whom, didn't we hear, 1K years are but a Day ...
So don't expect to become Christ overnight. And don't be surprised, when things continue to turn out ... not quite as they might at first have seemed!
God would not dangle the proverbial carrot, just to lead you in the end to a very nice place, where somehow it won't matter anymore. That is sophistry and casuistry. The metaphor holds. Certainly we are enticed and encouraged, and if you didn't know that, you obviously haven't thought much about sex, and the why of it. But since we all have, we know, that there IS something about GETTING the carrot ... and yes, God too, THINKS this way. For Goodness sake, God INVENTED it. Oh yeah, THINKING too, along with the idea of a REWARD for living in Harmony.
It's a pity that we want to bend the Truth to fit our theology, or personal, pet philosophy. I am still reeling from adjustments to the latter, since I am fairly well convinced by now that IT DOESN'T MATTER who believed what, or why, or how freaking long THEY have SAID that THIS was what YOU are SUPPOSED to BELIEVE.
Flush that, man. You'll be a lot better off.
If it doesn't reach deep down, DEEP, and just GRAB you ... it's probably crap. The subtler stuff? It's still there, but you must begin SOMEWHERE.
And I so resent that people insist that Human beings are BAD, or somehow inherently `fallen.'
WHEN are people going to grasp that - value judgments aside - this is a METAPHOR? It's an ALLEGORY? It is NOT about getting kicked out of some kind of `place.' Even as a condition, it is something God WANTED, such that even when you take up the study of this chapter in the past and see that there are complications ... you realize, saying that God WANTED us to come into incarnation ~ makes a WHOLE lot more sense, and is FAR closer to what happened, than the storybook silliness about snakes and deceptions and an angry anthropomorphic Whitey who screwed things up so that he'd then have to go and kill his kid so we could all feel happy happy joy joy for the rest of eternity, scot-free, all sinless and stainless after the horrific errors of our ways here in skidsville.
Dear God, DELIVER US FROM ... this nonsense.
{//end rant}
Actually, Thomas, there have been efforts - largely from the Roman Catholic Church, but also other branches of a more fundamentalist (and equally conservative) Christianity - to deface the Mystery Teachings ... but I don't think you can successfully stomp out the idea of the DIVINE [WHOM and Which is] present within every human being.
St. Paul, as you well know, was doing his best to address the Greeks who were somewhat still faithful to their own renditions of Ageless or Perennial flowings. The River Alph has always flowed underground; sometimes its waters may be constricted, other times they flow in abundance. It often, almost always, takes a Savior, an incarnated SON of GOD, to demonstrate the best way in each new Age to access these waters - and to do so safely.
Christed Jesus did his best to teach both the multitudes and the few who were READY to receive the Baptism by Fire and by Holy Spirit. Yet it was not the case that Christ Jesus brought that FIRE, or INSTILLED that Holy Spirit, as if it were something separate and alien to the `READY' Candidates in question.
For the multitudes, it can certainly be argued that the Christ had to speak very carefully, for He knew - as you do - that in any large gathering of people there will be something like a `lowest common denominator,' and the Goal is to reach EVERY Soul, not just the precious few. If the FEW that were chosen still echoes around in your mind, then we're back to the ones within whom, esoterically, the Christ within was already BORN.
And that BIRTH, symbolized by the Man in the CAVE (of the Heart), or the GROTTO ... oh gee, wait, don't I mean the stable, with the MANGER ... yes yes yes, details, details ... That BIRTH, we know, is UNIVERSAL.
A man is not held responsible for having never heard of Christianity or Jesus of Nazareth when he stands before the Powers that Be in the afterlife, asked to account for his accomplishments and shortcomings while on Earth. He may have been a good Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim or follower of the Wiccan Way ... and the Father (or some such) will pay no mind to his lip service and uttered CREEDs. What will be under scrutiny are RESULTS.
But the same Divine Potential lies latent in EVERY man's heart, REGARDLESS of individual conditions or conditioning ... and it is THIS which already is kindled into FLAME in the case of so many - often STIMULATED - hastened by the Christ (or another Master) for those who make themselves READY (giving the meaning to John the Baptist's indication of Christ as the BAPTIZER to come, also to Christ's ACTIONS during His Ministry).
The Christ Spirit - again spoken of as such by St. Paul and the other Apostles - does not depend upon or wait for the person of Jesus of Nazareth to do its work, however. Each PERSON, you, me or the guy at the grocers, does the work apparently for HIMSELF. That which (and WHO) is at work, of course, is the esoteric or Hidden Christ, if you can accept this as a PRINCIPLE.
Otherwise, we fall into the error of time and space, meaning that we limit and bind God the ALMIGHTY (Transcendent, the ABSOLUTE) ... to ONE historical time & place ... and pretty soon, you either KNEW Jesus, or you're - umm, screwed.
The Faith alone business will not fly. Otherwise, you may as well believe in the Buddha Shakyamuni, for HE told us that He was the Divine in direct incarnation or expression (keeping in mind the glamor, illusion and Maya that greatly affect our experiences, in the flesh), also. Then again, so did Sri Krishna, as have a long line - even an Apostolic Heritage (or Guru Parampara) - of Teachers ... EACH of Whom could not possibly be God the Transcendent in any kind of literal incarnation or expression, for this begs all sorts of questions. Pretty soon, my pet frog is God, and you had better believe it, because if you ask him he will ribbit, and you'll be the last to laugh.
Again, you will have missed God. But don't feel bad, any other time, it might be me, and you see ... the absudi~
No no, I'm really quite Sirius, so what I'm getting at is that there is no mystery here, even though we keep trying to invent one, and cover the REAL Mysteries up. Some can see the emperor's new clothes, and that means that all the tail-chasing is sort of amusing, in each new instance, but also kind of boring after awhile.
Progressive Revelation didn't stop with Jesus. It didn't stop with Nagarjuna or Aryasangha. Nor with Mohammad, or with Baha'u'llah, or H.P. Blavatksy or Alice Bailey. It won't come crashing to a halt when the Reappearance of the CHRIST (same one from last time, imho) has been much more widely accepted, or acknowledged as at least possible, given the pretty friggin' obvious SIGNS ... which plenty of us could LITERALLY SEE, sense, FEEL, touch and KNOW ~ however many odd years ago.
You see, there are those who are now long dead, who were well aware of the Reappearance - before the 19th Century ended. And I defy you to tell me that they were deluded or distracted or in any way deceived regarding the REVELATION which they Received. It is in print, or online, much of this ... as are the Divine Revelations from AGES prior to the birth of Jesus of Nazareth.
One day, people will realize that Christ (Jesus) becomes MORE, so much MORE, when He is LIFTED UP, in the true sense. So long as we keep him down ... by denying the Christ ... we do him, and God, and ourselves and others - a GREAT disservice.
Christ can be lifted up in many ways, but in name has pretty much NO meaning, if we are not drawing from that - from within... and here, if you're denying the Christ, the Hope of Glory, you'd better get to explaining, because St. Paul's not the only one who wonders whether you're just misguided, ignorant or perhaps truly out to do some damage.
Christ can be demonstrated by OUR actions. The LIVING, RISEN Christ is revealed, every day ... and this is not simply by a modern Mother Teresa or Gandhi ministering to the poor little ones, except where someone is able to recognize that these Little Ones, just as Christ said, ARE ALSO CHRIST. They are, because the man TOLD YOU THAT. I'm sorry it didn't get through to you yet.
DO IT to the least of these (whether children, people in 3rd world countries, poor people living in the slums of London or Dublin or New York, or criminals and rapists, murderers and thieves) ... and you HAVE done it unto Christ, just as to BEHOLD the Christ is to behold the Father.
Amazing what they DON'T teach in theology classes these days, and also what CHRIST HIMSELF could not clarify, apparently, except across the span of several, MANY incarnations ... for those here & there who far prefer a good thick commentary to anything like DIRECT or Divine REVELATION.
Personally, I prefer the ORIGINAL, and would like to use my own thinking cap, battered as it may be, or bewildered as I do SOMETIMES become ... rather than letting a bunch of highbrow, intellectually dry dead white guys do my thinking FOR me.
Do I KNOW that there is a Christ Principle, or a Christ within? Yes I do. And I know that this isn't because, every now & then, the Principle DESCENDS. It is already present, and if you had ANY clairvoyant skills to speak of (which I do NOT depend upon, or possess, physically or astrally speaking) ... you could verify that.
Sometimes, people argue hard, rail on AGAINST something ... because they want to hold to the status quo. Christ begged for the forgiveness of just such an offense, and worse, from upon the Cross. Indeed, THEY KNOW NOT what they do.
I would, perhaps I blush, but I WOULD - rather stir a small (and in the bigger scheme, insignificant) brood of vipers ... than keep tight-lipped when I observe a crime committed. Thus, I rail on, yet I do so PROMOTING the IDEA ... that:
CHRIST IS WITHIN YOU
If people on the CHRISTIANITY FORUM - and on this or related thread - have an issue with that, your battles are all before you. It will be uphill, and tough going, and in the end, you're going to eat humble pie. You will find, even if you'd rather NOT see, accept, understand, study, approach or otherwise KNOW that Christ ... that this CHRIST SPIRIT is far more significant in the end (as also from Alpha, through every STEP of the Way), than your dead man, of dead letters, and secret, silent whispers.
Christ taught that we should take the Gospel FORWARD, not entomb it in the narrow, UNadaptable and untenable wrappings of the past. It is possible to HONOR the Teachings of one's Fathers and of one's Family, while not enslaving ourselves to the same errors that either or both have made, largely out of custom - and of course, unbeknownst. WHO, knowing Truth, would hold recalcitrant and insist on falsehood?
Only one who still struggles with their difference or division, and on this matter, the Christ speaks as well. He brought a SWORD, and with it we may cleave falsehood from Truth, IF we aspire and apply. Unless your Vision of things equals that of God Almighty in terms of scope and accuracy, I dare say there is some cleavin' that better get to happ'nen.
Thomas knows that I pick on him from time to time, but only because he hasn't a clue when it comes to about a zillion other angels - wait, I mean angles - of approach ... on this CHRIST WITHIN matter. We may as well discuss Ahamkar/Ahankara if you would like to ask WHY it is that so many of us just don't see it ... the way I claim it is.
Then again, I don't think I'm the only one around here saying that the Christ SPIRIT isn't limited to the expression via Jesus of Nazareth, or that the same in found within all people, all times, all places. Arguing otherwise, is doing really disgusting things to what was ONCE a mighty fine horse.
In the last, it is OUR RESPONSE, or lack thereof, TO this Christ Principle ... which most defines us. Not just as Christians, but as Human Beings. For your see, we are the Divine CENTAUR. And primarily, at this stage of development, we are this MELD of animal and human, such that we are neither animal nor angel, but `in between.' The Angelic potential, or Spark of the Divine (which is more properly a Gateway to the Christ - and I will defy you to DIVIDE this Gate from its eventual `destination') ... will increasingly become evident, but this is gradual, and since when has evolution proceeded at breakneck pace?
God has ... all the time in the Cosmos. For Whom, didn't we hear, 1K years are but a Day ...
So don't expect to become Christ overnight. And don't be surprised, when things continue to turn out ... not quite as they might at first have seemed!
God would not dangle the proverbial carrot, just to lead you in the end to a very nice place, where somehow it won't matter anymore. That is sophistry and casuistry. The metaphor holds. Certainly we are enticed and encouraged, and if you didn't know that, you obviously haven't thought much about sex, and the why of it. But since we all have, we know, that there IS something about GETTING the carrot ... and yes, God too, THINKS this way. For Goodness sake, God INVENTED it. Oh yeah, THINKING too, along with the idea of a REWARD for living in Harmony.
It's a pity that we want to bend the Truth to fit our theology, or personal, pet philosophy. I am still reeling from adjustments to the latter, since I am fairly well convinced by now that IT DOESN'T MATTER who believed what, or why, or how freaking long THEY have SAID that THIS was what YOU are SUPPOSED to BELIEVE.
Flush that, man. You'll be a lot better off.
If it doesn't reach deep down, DEEP, and just GRAB you ... it's probably crap. The subtler stuff? It's still there, but you must begin SOMEWHERE.
And I so resent that people insist that Human beings are BAD, or somehow inherently `fallen.'
WHEN are people going to grasp that - value judgments aside - this is a METAPHOR? It's an ALLEGORY? It is NOT about getting kicked out of some kind of `place.' Even as a condition, it is something God WANTED, such that even when you take up the study of this chapter in the past and see that there are complications ... you realize, saying that God WANTED us to come into incarnation ~ makes a WHOLE lot more sense, and is FAR closer to what happened, than the storybook silliness about snakes and deceptions and an angry anthropomorphic Whitey who screwed things up so that he'd then have to go and kill his kid so we could all feel happy happy joy joy for the rest of eternity, scot-free, all sinless and stainless after the horrific errors of our ways here in skidsville.
Dear God, DELIVER US FROM ... this nonsense.
{//end rant}
Hi AndrewX
The 'candidates' of which you speak, and quite whom you refer to I do not know, we've called 'anonymous Christians' since the days of Clement of Alexandria. Perhaps you didn't know. Also, Christ said 'For I came not to call the just, but sinners" Mark 2:17.
Of course, if one thinks one's beyond perfecting ...
... I might also add that generally today, the difference between exoteric and esoteric knowledge is largely that the latter can be said to knowledge with an unhealthy dose of ego. The esoteric is available in screeds in bookshops, and makes not the slightest bit of difference to the reader. other than inflating their sense of superiority over others. What's esoteric to one is quite commonplace to the other.
Of course, the esoterism of which Plato and the traditions speak is not knowledge, but being. and as Plato himself said, he'll never write about it, nor could he.
It's worth contemplating those whom Jesus considered 'justified' already ... the widow at the temple courtyard, the publican at prayer, the robber on the cross — not an esoteric fact between the three of them. The rich young man however (and by riches ther wise read knowledge, not material goods) was a lost cause ... and so it goes ...
But to repeat: All created natures exist by virtue of the will of God, so Divine Grace is not something extrinsic to creation, but immanent to it, and participative ... it all depends what one does with the life one's been given.
So far, old chum, this is, and the saying goes, a statement of the bleedin' obvious ...
You've also misread Paul and the other Apostles, by the way, who were in no doubt (after Penetecost) that the man whom they saw, spoke to, heard, and touched, was not an instance of the divine indwelling operative in and through the person, as in the case of a priest or prophet and so forth, but rather what they beheld in the flesh was the manifestation of the Principle Itself, through an hypostatic union as a person.
As Athanasius and others declared "God became man, that man might become God" and furthermore, Athanasius clarified, "God became man, he did not come into a man" (my emphasis).
As a preface, it should be obvious by know that knowledge — esoteric or otherwise — does not make the man. Some of the most knowledgeable people who ever lived were quite despicable persons ...
But faith is not, perhaps as you assume, a deficiency of knowledge, but rather true faith is the indwelling of the Supraformal, the Dark Radience of the Divine, which is why, as the man says 'faith can move mountains'.
As I recall, you told me once you live in 'Bible-Belt' America? Well you have my sympathy, really you do. Some of the things that come of of self-declared Christians on your side of the pond I find frankly quite disturbing. Like the whole creationist nonsense ... but please don't assume we're all like your neighbours, nor tar us all, as they say, with the same brush.
On the other hand, America has produced some excellent theologians, as well as perennialists ... and you have some serious talent from the Perennial Tradition living there.
But as you believe in reincarnation, might I suggest you aim for France the next time round? The esoteric tradition in France has been a strong current for many, many years.
God bless,
Thomas
My dear Andrew ... rant away, but try to keep possession of your wits. This is utter nonsense, and the idea of the Roman Catholic Church denying the reality of the Divine ... really ... Lord alone knows who's been whispering what nonsense in your ears.
More than that, old chum, the Holy Spirit is immanently present to all and everything throughout creation, else it would not exist.
The 'candidates' of which you speak, and quite whom you refer to I do not know, we've called 'anonymous Christians' since the days of Clement of Alexandria. Perhaps you didn't know. Also, Christ said 'For I came not to call the just, but sinners" Mark 2:17.
Of course, if one thinks one's beyond perfecting ...
... I might also add that generally today, the difference between exoteric and esoteric knowledge is largely that the latter can be said to knowledge with an unhealthy dose of ego. The esoteric is available in screeds in bookshops, and makes not the slightest bit of difference to the reader. other than inflating their sense of superiority over others. What's esoteric to one is quite commonplace to the other.
Of course, the esoterism of which Plato and the traditions speak is not knowledge, but being. and as Plato himself said, he'll never write about it, nor could he.
It's worth contemplating those whom Jesus considered 'justified' already ... the widow at the temple courtyard, the publican at prayer, the robber on the cross — not an esoteric fact between the three of them. The rich young man however (and by riches ther wise read knowledge, not material goods) was a lost cause ... and so it goes ...
But to repeat: All created natures exist by virtue of the will of God, so Divine Grace is not something extrinsic to creation, but immanent to it, and participative ... it all depends what one does with the life one's been given.
Oh, If you could only see ...
Are you trying to teach me Catholic doctrine now? Ref. Clement again ... or Karl Rahner if you want a more contemporary commentary.
As Scripture says, cf John 1.
So far, old chum, this is, and the saying goes, a statement of the bleedin' obvious ...
Are, here of course we differ. I see the person of Jesus Christ as being the Logos of God incarnate ... I fail to see why, if the Logo of God can indwell in the human soul, it cannot manifest Itself as Itself ...
You've also misread Paul and the other Apostles, by the way, who were in no doubt (after Penetecost) that the man whom they saw, spoke to, heard, and touched, was not an instance of the divine indwelling operative in and through the person, as in the case of a priest or prophet and so forth, but rather what they beheld in the flesh was the manifestation of the Principle Itself, through an hypostatic union as a person.
As Athanasius and others declared "God became man, that man might become God" and furthermore, Athanasius clarified, "God became man, he did not come into a man" (my emphasis).
Ah, you really don't understand faith.
As a preface, it should be obvious by know that knowledge — esoteric or otherwise — does not make the man. Some of the most knowledgeable people who ever lived were quite despicable persons ...
But faith is not, perhaps as you assume, a deficiency of knowledge, but rather true faith is the indwelling of the Supraformal, the Dark Radience of the Divine, which is why, as the man says 'faith can move mountains'.
Ah, dear me ... I think this kind of gross and frankly offensive self-opinionated blethering once you get your steam up, really shows how little you actually know, and how prejudiced you actually are.
As I recall, you told me once you live in 'Bible-Belt' America? Well you have my sympathy, really you do. Some of the things that come of of self-declared Christians on your side of the pond I find frankly quite disturbing. Like the whole creationist nonsense ... but please don't assume we're all like your neighbours, nor tar us all, as they say, with the same brush.
On the other hand, America has produced some excellent theologians, as well as perennialists ... and you have some serious talent from the Perennial Tradition living there.
But as you believe in reincarnation, might I suggest you aim for France the next time round? The esoteric tradition in France has been a strong current for many, many years.
God bless,
Thomas
H
Hermes
Guest
un·e·quiv·o·cal/ˌəniˈkwivəkəl/
Adjective:
Leaving no doubt; unambiguous: "an unequivocal answer".
Most alleged Jesus =god refs from the bible are vivid imaginations at play.
Adjective:
Leaving no doubt; unambiguous: "an unequivocal answer".
Most alleged Jesus =god refs from the bible are vivid imaginations at play.