About occultists

Snoopy said:
Had to look these up. America sure is the home of the conspiracy.
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Not meaning to take Andrew's interesting thread too off track, but I might add the word "thankfully." We here in the colonies tend to be the home of the conspiracy [theory] because we get such sterling pronouncements from the Ministry of Truth as the Warren Commission Report and, of course, the 911 Commission Report. Said George H. W. Bush at Gerald R. Ford's funeral (source):

... After a deluded gunman assassinated President Kennedy, our nation turned to Gerald Ford and a select handful of others to make sense of that madness. And the conspiracy theorists can say what they will, but the Warren Commission report will always have the final definitive say on this tragic matter. Why? Because Jerry Ford put his name on it and Jerry Ford’s word was always good ...
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Once again, the Ministry of Truth has spoken.

___________________________________


By the way, Andrew, do you have any information on what caused the split between HPB and Rudolf Steiner? I have looked into the matter in some detail, but all I could find was that, in terms of doctrine, Steiner was more Christocentric.

I used to read, out of curiosity, both Theosophy and Anthroposophy and put HPB's Secret Doctrine on my list of top-ten books in the Media section. Interesting thread, thanks.

Best regards,


Serv
 
Servetus,

Great point regarding conspiracies.

We have been told that the `offical word' is that flying saucers do not exist, even after the Air Force found it necessary to call a live National Press Conference on television [July 29] - when in 1952 UFOs were photographed above the United States Capitol Bldg ... as well as *verified* on both air- and ground-based radar. This was no fluke, or a flock of geese, or swamp gas, or Venus, or weather phenomenon, much less weather balloons. :p

Most people of intelligence now recognize that the statistical probability of the Earth being the only inhabited planet is quite a bit more remote than being struck by lightning seventy-five times a second from now until the end of time ... however quickly that might come for the person in question. :D

The number of exoplanets is now [as of 4/4/12] estimated at 763, but of course, this number increases almost daily. It is known, from a scientific basis, that EVERY galaxy has a super-massive black hole at the center, including ours. It is also likely to be realized quite soon - as Theosophy, and the Vedic Wisdom have always indicated - that as of a rule, EVERY Stellar System in Cosmos either supports Intelligent Evolution [both material and spiritual, on some turn of the proverbial spiral] ... or has done so in the past, or will in the future. Most star systems, as we now know, are binary if not ternary systems.

And this is the tip of the iceberg.

On a related note, perhaps far more important - because critical at this point in our evolution - there has been in existence on THIS planet a means of solving the vast majority (if not all) of our energy woes ... including the pollution problem, the greenhouse effect, glacial melting and the rise of oceans [which WILL occur substantially - by about 3 ft as I recall - by the year 2100, assuming we do immediately begin observing drastic or at least reasonable measures to neutralize obvious trends toward planetocide ... which, of course, is NOT happening yet, as we pull up to the pump and spend $4.50 a gallon to fuel our TANK-like Hummers and SUVs that get, say, 8mpg ~ so much for efficiency standards, & thank you G.W. Bush Admin for keeping us so diligently focused on the *real* issues! :rolleyes:]

One does not need to be obsessed with UFO cults and little green men to recognize that the SOLUTIONS to our planetary woes are just not, many of them, reaching public awareness - yet - and until we're paying, ohhhh, say $7 or $8 a gallon, I won't be surprised if nothing changes. Sure, we all have spiral lightbulbs now ... and uhhhh, I know *I* sure sleep better at night with this drastic, planet-saving measure in place! :p

Case in point: Something called Thermal Depolymerization, or TDP, while not a magic-bullet, panacea type solution to all of our energy/pollution ills, unfortunately remains about as well known as ET does. And this one originated right here on planet Earth. Why doesn't the press seize upon THIS story, and popularize this process, as part of the solution to our waste issues ... which fuel an ongoing debate here in North Carolina [Guilford County] regarding WHERE we're gonna truck all our waste to (which landfill, logistics, smell, etc.)?


I do mean, however, that for DECADES we have had in our military possession small-scale cyclotrons - or, basically, the equivalent of a particle accelerator as at CERN or Los Alamos - about the size of a desktop computer. We *know* that these exist because [they have been removed from] numerous UFOs [which] have been in the government's possession - also for decades - and these [UFOs] have been successfully enough reverse-engineered to provide us with technology such as:
  • Fiber optics
  • Cell phone & related small scale communications technology
  • Even smaller technology, now called NANOtechnology ... with virtually unimaginable, unlimited potential in the medical field, for starters
  • A lot of THESE possibilities due to the "discovery" of the IC, or integrated circuit
  • WEAPONS applications of "acquired" technologies ... a lot of which is already floating in our atmosphere, now used routinely to try and shoot down other visiting intelligences
[Read up on Philip J. Corso for more info; and this guy was NOT a kook! Nor were the hundreds of individuals with SWORN testimonies to just this sort of thing ... enough to have blown the lid off the UFO cover-ups in the USA for all time ... vide the DISCLOSURE PROJECT, led by Steven Greer, for proper shrift]

Now, of course some of that will seem a bit far-fetched to the die-hard skeptics; but these same skeptics will go sit in front of their idiot-boxes and watch Star Wars, Star Trek, Stargate and Terminator ... then follow Romeo & Juliet rehashes with awful actors as vampires, bad make-up and of course, computerized action figures soon to follow ~ so we can indoctrinate our kids into this strange, materialistic view of a Humanity-controlled, Geo-centric Cosmos, all weaponized and militarized and policed so that we can keep up our age-old, unhealthy, screwed-up psyche mindgames.

Yes, I've left out much of the SANE portion of our take on it all [gestalt] in my little mock-up, but I hope the inconsistencies and ridiculous problems with the skeptics' criticism are coming to light.

I'm not worried about derailing this thread; that's already been accomplished. And since I don't even pretend to represent what most modern esotericists believe ... I don't mind tossing out a few issues that are near-and-dear to me, personally.

Some of this, I admit, is just what I consider of critical-enough importance that, once we get beyond the fear-factor, including the worrying about what our friends might think if they knew we believe in x, y or z ... we can actually sink our teeth in, and see what's there worth chewing. Thus, getting back to the conspiracy angle:

We have been assured that JFK was not assasinated by the U.S. Gov'mt, yet there is abundant evidence to show that he was taken out by just such an inside arrangement ... and then, lo! His assassin is, himself, assassinated. Gee, that worked out kinda well.

JFK was about to go public with at least some of what was then known about ETs and UFO visits ... perhaps even informing us that Eisenhower MET representatives or delegates from another Planet, or Star System on the runway at Edwards AFB in Feb. of 1954. Possibly JFK would have made plain that an exchange program was already underway, involving visits of human beings to another world, as well as vice versa. And since Kennedy had more than abundant evidence to back up his announcement, it was clear ... something had to be done.

Marilyn Monroe knew, too. The quantity of drugs [barbituates] shoved up her ass [pardon the candor, but this is exactly how they killed her] would have been pretty damn impossible for a human being to manage to get up there ... by herself. Check the coroner's report, which was changed three different times. And etc.

You know, you really don't have to do much to cover up something like Roswell. Just spread around a little misinformation, a little disinformation, send out a platoon to comb the Brazel ranch with a fine tooth comb ... and before you know it, the rancher who SAW the original debris will even swear that it was just a weather balloon. He might have a nice new truck and no more financial woes, but all of the sudden, there was never a UFO to begin with! :D

~+~

I still haven't begun to even SUGGEST the kinds of conspiracies which are - quite legitimate coverups - yet pervade this ridiculous society of clowns and bozos we live amidst ... which are nonetheless written off every day as just that. We are the biggest bunch of hypocrites and can't-see-the-forest-for-the-tree type myopists I can possibly imagine.

Every day the human being leaves his or her body and floats upon the astral plane, often attending night class, or visiting loved ones or friends, sometimes investigating some kind of entertainment or exploration ... any number of possible ventures, limited albeit to a pretty tight little bubble around planet Earth.

In that world, however, the Imagination has virtually free reign, if not quite like in the Imaginationland 3-part South Park episodes I watched last night. Nevertheless, we wake up, our brain presents some kind of garbled up gobbledy-gook, and 9 out of 10 people never even consider that there might be something worthwhile which we can bring back from this nightly sojourn.

Yet every single human being, with very rare exception, LEAVES THE BODY each night in this fashion. It's just how we are "built" ... and of course, most folks are none-the-wiser. For the 10% who ARE open to this type of suggestion, or communication, it will still rarely occur that any kind of message from the level of the Soul [Higher Mind, Buddhic world, Atmic world] will percolate on through.

In part, this is a natural filter, and we should *not* try and force the process of recall. If we do remember some unusual occurrences, however, we might at least write them down. Especially where dreams are recurring, it's a pretty safe bet: Somebody is tryin' to get a message through! ;) :)

I have to pause here, because I'm almost warmed up ... :p ... but I need a midnight snack, and I still haven't said word one about esotericism, Steiner, HPB and the progression from Theosophy to modern Theosophical or Theosophical-influenced schools & groups.

To do that, and give the subject any proper justice, I'll need to collect my thoughts, ruminate a bit, and do it in a new post. I promise to do this, whether it's later [this morning] or tomorrow.

The connection, fwiw, between HPB & the 19th Century Theosophical revival, with 20th Century Anthroposophy, Alice Bailey and Helena Roerich's Agni Yoga, is quite intentional ... or so my experience of 20+ years tells me [with increasing insight & awareness, if still that of a beginner and aspirant].

HPB knew this, and she said so PLAINLY ... probably on more than one occasion, yet it is easy to show where she points toward Alice Bailey as the next Messenger that would be coming along.

Some Theosophists may also know of Geoffrey Hodson, who basically maintained the same relationship for modern Theosophy and the Theosophical Society during the 20th century as HPB did during the 19th [being that of liaison between the Hierarchy and Humanity]. I don't mean to suggest that he did so single-handedly, but rather, that he was THE Amanuensis ... through whom half a dozen or more Mahatmas communicated, and on regular basis.

Hodson, to the best of my knowledge, was probably the most gifted clairvoyant of the 20th Century, CWL & Annie Besant notwithstanding. Nor was he a pedophile, or Jew-hater, or any of this other garbage which we find floating around in some people's fairly-polluted mindstreams.

Really now ... I would have expected much more from a twice-born. But then, I also make mistakes ~ quite often, I am discovering. One of these seems to be giving people far more credit than they deserve. Much as one might actually wish others well, it's sad to notice that we tend to shoot ourselves in the foot far too often. And as my Father often says, Give 'em a little rope, and they'll hang themselves. Ain't *that* the truth!

More later ...

Namaskar
 
Just to weigh in, as I said before, I am on two UFO reports. Corso and Greer are interesting. But (like most other conspiracies) no proof. Yeah, lots of claims, lots of stories. Where is one alien artifact or one alien lifeform? Or even a government document (sorry, the MJ-12 hoax has been debunked more than once).

BTW, there are no desk-sized cyclotrons--the target area can be as small as 24" (could be made smaller) but the "workings" (magnets and stuff) would not even fit into a really big van. Paricle physics has moved well beyond cyclotrons (invented in the 30s) because they have a severe limitation on the power that can be generated. Sychrotrons were the next step and CERN has only those and linear accelerators and (of course) the much bigger LHC--none of these are cyclotrons.

I will believe a conspiracy theory when it (1) has proof (not reasoning, but physical evidence), and (2) it is postulated in a scientific manner.... that is, there is a way to test and refute it's claims.

That does not mean I do not believe in UFOs or extra-terrestrial life or even intelligent life elsewhere. I'm just a little more conservative in my approach.
 
radarmark,

The proof you seek - both in the form of the particle accelerators of the size I mention, as well as lgms ON ICE - have both existed *on this planet* for decades. Your difficulty is precisely that until seeing, you refuse to believe.

I refer you to the Biblical passage in which Christ Jesus says:
"... blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." ~John 20:29
​
It's not that I'm saying you *should* necessarily believe. But for once, I wish people would just take my word for it.

You can dispute Lazar, you can argue with Greer. You will find, however, that there are HUNDREDS [that's a literal number, like SEVERAL hundreds] of credible witnesses to the latter. There are civilian and military pilots, radar operators, NASA employees, five-star Admiral Lord Hill-Norton, and so on. The list of direct eyewitnesses alone is staggering.

There is far, FAR more evidence for a long list of UFO and ET-related phenomena ... that easily surpasses the combined evidence for Christ, Buddha, Krishna, etc. ~ according to the rather strict guidelines [hey pal, I gotta see it to believe it] you have composed on what constitutes "proof."

In the case of ETs and UFOs, even after you sift out the 90% bunk or so, there remains a body of physical evidence [as there certainly exists, and as has been HELD by civilian hands] which simply cannot be ignored by the rational, unbiased investigator.

That we - or in this case you - can and do simply dismiss the evidence, all because YOU CANNOT SEE OR HOLD IT ... is of course, your choice.

In like fashion, you should not believe in ghosts, Christ, spiritual realms, psychic phenomena, or any of that other stuff ... for in these cases, we cannot nearly as easily put our hands on it, or see it, or measure it.

Do you know what an exoplanet is? Did you click on and read each link I provided, at least *starting with* the Wikipedia article and continuing from there?

Again, YOU MAY BELIEVE as you choose. I'm simply pointing out your tremendous logical inconsistency [don't worry, it's a symptom of the times - and of the human condition] with your position and arguments. Just par for the course ... ;)

Let's put it this way: I'd bet the farm - and all the land it borders - on the legitimacy of Lazar's experiences [he was only INSIDE a UFO, directly WORKING ON ONE] ... plus Greer's. You obviously have no issues dismissing the evidence - again - of HUNDREDS of credible witnesses. And I dare say, these latter are likely far more qualified than you are, or most folks you know, to testify to the things they have SEEN.

When we foist our own doubts, skepticism and suspiction upon those who have been BRAVE enough to come forward, often risking reputation, job standing, friendships and even sanity ... I have a hard time finding any fortitude in the oh-so-valiant position which you find you must maintain.

Give yourself another ten years or so. Research the issues, the cases, EARNESTLY and PATIENTLY. Put the time and effort into it that I, and 1000s of other individuals have. THEN come back and tell me, "Hey, I gotta SEE it to BELIEVE it!"

Then reread John 20:29. And if you still need to ... PONDER

You most certainly have the RIGHT ... to believe and question as you do.

In like fashion, I challenge you: To PROVE TO ME that Australia exists.
I haven't seen it. Afaik, there is NO EVIDENCE.
You gonna buy my airline ticket?
You gonna take me there?
Alright then, it ain't real.
You made it up
Prove it's real!
:D
 
Calm down, Andrew. All those CAPS and stuff are not warrented. I never said UFOs or ETs do not exist. I just point out that if one believes in those one does not have to be a Raelist or a member of Heaven's Gate.

I was merely pointing out some factual errors. There are no cyclotrons the size of a personnal computer. If one made one, the total power would be about 1 MeV (this is easlily worked out with just the equations on wiki). A magnetron is more efficent for that energy realm (and smaller). We (I am a nuclear physicist and have used cyclotrons and sychotrons) no longer make cyclotrons. There are none at CERN (lots of accelerators, just all bigger and more energetic than cyclotrons).

The hundreds of eyewitnesses you enumerate include me. I just do not beleive that if you believe in UFOs and ETs you have to believe the "whole ball of wax".

For instance, if you look at the overhead images for S-4 (the area near area 51 where Lazar says the UFOs were) you will see that the geological formations do match his "eyewitness testimony". I guess the Government moved mountains and changed a cliff to discredit him (not bloody likely).

If you go to Aztec Mountain or Dulce and hop the fence into the "secured area" you will find lots of snakes, but no greys (contrary to Paul Bennewitz). If one looks through the entire corpus of documents at Iron Mountain you will not find the MAJESTIC files (as MJ-12ers claim). If you walk the underground highway at Kirtland (besides being arrested) you will only find a tunnel that leads from a spot where "hazardous cargo" aircraft are unloaded to an underground weapons storage facility (it does not continue south to White Sands or West to Nellis). If you go over the fence at Monzano (this time you will not be arrested but shot) all you will find is a bunch of old weapon storage bunkers, not the ETs Moore promises (which might now have "Above Top Secret" operators in them). Why? I have done all these things (besides being a nuke I was an Air Force Intel Officer at Kirtland). I know the guys who debriefed Bennewitz and went to Schmitt and Randall's retirement briefings.

I am just saying you do not have to believe all that stuff to believe in UFOs and ETs.
That is all. Is there any physical proof of UFOs or ETs? No, it would be posted on the web or sent into the Skeptical Inquirer for the $1,000,000 prize. Do all the witnesses say they saw physical proof (like parts or a UFO in military possession). No, like me they just saw something with their own eyes. Because there are hundreds of witnesses does not mean hundreds of witnesses believe Lazar or Moore or Bennewitz. Shucks, Moore does not believe Bennewitz or Lazar. And Cooper thought they were all liars. Schmidt and Randall, last I checked did not support most of the others.

We disagree, I believe there is a middle ground here. To believe in UFOs and ETs does not mean you have to swallow the whole thing (making that mistake is like saying "I see what I eat, therefore I eat what I see", it does not work). I was not dismissive or ponderous to you, so I would expect the same, please.
 
AndrewX said:
Sure, we all have spiral lightbulbs now ... and uhhhh, I know *I* sure sleep better at night with this drastic, planet-saving measure in place! :p
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So do I, but especially when I remember to turn the things off before nodding off, soporific, into my Lazy-Boy-Chair.

AndrewX said:
I have to pause here, because I'm almost warmed up ... :p ... but I need a midnight snack ...
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I'm thoroughly enjoying it. In fact, I'm munching on some caramel corn myself. In the American style, I super-sized it and got a big bag to last me through the intermission.


Serv
 
radarmark said:
I just point out that if one believes in those one does not have to be a Raelist or a member of Heaven's Gate.
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Right on! That stuff scares me ... and makes me groan, given what insight I feel confident I've come to. ;)

radarmark said:
I was merely pointing out some factual errors. There are no cyclotrons the size of a personnal computer. If one made one, the total power would be about 1 MeV (this is easlily worked out with just the equations on wiki). A magnetron is more efficent for that energy realm (and smaller). We (I am a nuclear physicist and have used cyclotrons and sychotrons) no longer make cyclotrons. There are none at CERN (lots of accelerators, just all bigger and more energetic than cyclotrons).
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If I might correct you ... you have not seen such a device. I know someone who has, and I stand by his testimony. He built a mockup, not to suggest what one MIGHT look like, but based on his *direct* experience reverse-engineering the one that he did see.

In this case, given that all the evidence is actually IN Bob Lazar's court ... I will go with his testimony. Please forgive my elementary understanding, however, of the correct terminology. Let's not get too detailed here. I may be oversimplifying, but my point is, that what we on Earth currently cannot accomplish except on the very large, mile-or-so scale [diameter, radius, circumference? see? I don't know precise details] ... what we can't yet do, the little folks who flew the UFOs several light years to get here, CAN DO, and have done for millions of years.

Realize, please, that I like to get heavy-handed, only when I'm right. ;)

You may have the experience to get into the nitty-gritty, but I have the intuition, the insight and even a layman's understanding to clarify that modern physics *just doesn't quite grasp* which forces are operative in these devices [anti-gravity generators? ~ IF you prefer!]. But I do know that Element 115 figures, which we *have* reproduced - or synthesized, temporarily, albeit as yet unstable - ON EARTH.

Lazar pilfered a small amount of this from Los Alamos, or from Area S-4 ... brought here originally by the ETs as fuel for their craft. Small, triangular wedges power these saucers for about 25 years. Lazar never claimed to have directly seen ETs, although I think he very well did ... and was fairly weirded out by it all. What the spooks out there TOLD him he was working on, and doing, and what they put in front of him by way of briefing materials was probably, most likely, already loaded with misleading information ... either intentionally, by the nature of the beast, or both.

The point remains: UFOs use what amounts to anti-gravity ... in order to move in a different realm altogether [in the world of what esotericists call the subtle ethers, and/or the astral plane] ... and when hovering and zipping around in our local atmosphere they do things all the time like "falling UP" or falling *sideways*.

When one has begun to realize that Gravity just ain't what science has construed it as, the above statements begin to make such ROCK-solid, perfect logical sense ... that we see, it's not that we're inventing anything new here. We're just showing that ideas like GUFT, which have been around for quite some time, are slowly but surely catching up with the Wisdom of the ancient Vedas ...

... and I have somewhere read that Einstein had a copy of The Secret Doctrine, well-studied, dog-eared and marked up, at his desk. ;) {This I believe, but I can't recall the source; nor can I confirm it.}

Yes, modern science is brand new, and there is plenty of error, an overall materialistic worldview, and obvious confusion over where our Cosmos originates, how & why it does so, how old it is, etc. Even our own Solar System has a duration of 311 trillion years ... and, given how far off science is, I will again draw emphasis to the discrepancy with annoying boldface font, italics, asterisks, etc. :rolleyes:

Apologies, but I think it's worth highlighting these facts, because today they are still considered far amiss ... when in fact, the Vedists were right all along ~ even several tens of thousands of years ago! :cool:

radarmark said:
The hundreds of eyewitnesses you enumerate include me. I just do not beleive that if you believe in UFOs and ETs you have to believe the "whole ball of wax".
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Nor do I, but as we see, there is a difference between where one ball of wax stops, and another begins. Do I think every abductee was taken up? Probably not. But are there about 50 or 60 different species here visiting us, assisting us in this rather difficult, trying & defining time of human history - with a longer list of precedents than any of us can scarely imagine?

I would bet my life that ... at least several different planets, and likely star systemsi, are thus represented. I can't personally confirm the many dozens, yet I do think we are seeing [so to speak, but sometimes literally] visitors from many light years away.

Clearly we must come to redefine our scientific grasp of faster-than-light travel if we are to reconcile this information [solid fact to some] with the "facts" as modern science currently presents them. And realize, it is the latter, not the former, which needs the defending ... in my worldview. I do not feel compelled one whit to prove to another human being - you or anyone - why any, or all, of the above is, or might be, or must be true.

This may seem unreasonable, and I will certainly admit that it contradicts what people love to say about "extraordinary claims" ...

... but ya know what? In my mind, nothing I have said yet is really that extraordinary. It's just *not what we're USED TO* believing. And yes, science isn't about belief, per se ... but again, imho, modern science has barely seen the tip of the iceberg, and speaking of icebergs, do you see Western society yet scrambling to save the planet from Humanity's destructive tendencies, even in the face of the burden of proof that sea levels are rising, the ozone layer is disappearing, oil reserves are doing the same, earthquakes & tornadoes are raining down destruction on unprecedented scale, tsunamis likewise, etc. etc.?

Nope. So even when science does have "all the answers," or at least ENOUGH to show us that without changing the path we're on, we'll likely reach an awful bottleneck population-wise, and in terms of planetary well-being ... possibly w/in our own lifetimes, certainly soon thereafter ... even *despite* all this, are people paying enough attention to prevent the global catastrophes which thinned the population of Lemuria, then later Atlantis?

I don't know, but I HOPE so. :eek: :) ;)

Yes, I realize I come off sounding like a loon, but I'm kind of used to that reaction ... or possibility. I don't much care anymore, just so I'm not in the middle of a job interview - and shit, I mean, shoot - if an employer wants to poke around online and find out that I believe in ETs and I'm worried about the future of our planet, more power to 'em! ;)

More people need a working CONSCIENCE anyway, if ya ask me!

The caps and bold stuff is sometimes just so I can remind my own darn self what matters most. I know I come off sounding heavy-handed, and if I talked about this stuff in a group setting, I probably would be. I do it online, however, and I do apologize if the zeal is a little too apparent.

Am I pretty passionate about it? You bet. Like I said, the ball of wax is pretty different for me ... and it doesn't concern me [as much as it probably should] that most folks just don't buy into a lot of this. If I didn't, at this point, I'd be very illogical, inconsistent and foolish. Just as you would be, if you did swallow it whole. :D

What I won't and don't do is to back away as if I might be wrong about things I know I'm right about. In such cases [this is one] I prefer to try and temper what I'm getting at to the forum, thread, venue, setting, etc. in question ... and just to be 100% candid, all I really care about from a personal standpoint is that I can learn a little better how to discuss things like this, and - regardless as to others' perceptions or judgments of me & my views - that I manage to communicate various ideas w/out having to descend to the levels of personal attacks.

Thomas here at Interfaith, et al [wil, seattlegal, china cat, too many to name] ... have taught me more over the past few years than any one mentor or guru ... and while my worldview will not break, it will certainly bend if I am to survive, grow and achieve my Purpose. Isn't this true for us all?

Perhaps ~ but what I am interested in is how to better communicate, which was once something I claimed proudly as a strength, but now can easily recognize as a deficit. So, as I say, I haven't the faintest shadow of a doubt about [the veracity of] some of the things I say, including the Lazar case. Whether or not you buy it is up to you. I can't change your mind for you, and even if I could, how would that be the same as you *realizing* of your own accord, free will and choice, plus direct contact with TRUTH ... that such-and-such is the case?

This is the part I think most people don't understand when we begin to speak of deeply-held views, convictions, or personal experiences. I don't question, for instance, that most of us here have likely had life-changing experiences ... possibly religious, spiritual or psychic, unusual, etc. I *may* have seen a UFO, but I don't think I've ever encountered an ET, and I probably don't have the kind of direct UFO encounters that many here *do* have. I simply understand - and here from a limited pov - that they are all over our subtle atmosphere.

Enough of that, let's see what you said about Lazar ...

radarmark said:
For instance, if you look at the overhead images for S-4 (the area near area 51 where Lazar says the UFOs were) you will see that the geological formations do match his "eyewitness testimony". I guess the Government moved mountains and changed a cliff to discredit him (not bloody likely).
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I think you mean "do not" ... but actually, they do. Although satellite date is rountinely changed - UFOs being airbrushed out [although in a few cases there may have been slip-ups!] - the mountain ridge Lazar describes can definitely be observed.

Remember, before the 9/11 craziness, you could use Google maps and Google Earth to zoom in on the top of the White House, Capitol Bldg, Pentagon, etc. It was all pretty much open. Now try that. Notice you will see no details; it's all been whited out! ;)

I'm not saying things haven't changed [with the data] ... but I am suggesting that if you had access to the right satellites, and possibly simply the data from a few years ago, you'd be able to see the range, or ridge, that Lazar refers to. That being said, I've never regarded this as the only - or even best - way to confirm Lazar's story.

Remember, when you're looking for the various elements of an argument, you look at *each piece* of information, or testimony, or "proof." Something like a doubt as to where Lazar's row of hangars actually exists does not disprove his testimony. And of course, when it comes to UFOs, which have been witnessed tens of thousands of times - probably millions - it only takes one to prove the case.

Did Lazar actually work on one of these at Area S-4? I think so. I'd bet the farm on it. I might be wrong in his case ... but I have absolutely no good reason to doubt him. But even if I did, he would simply be the *exception* ... since I already know, from the hundreds of other eyewitness testimonies from credible witnesses, that what he's telling us is essentially GOSPEL. :) or close enough ...

Once again, when it comes to all of these specific cases you mention, individual details ... I think you're getting lost in the forest. Tree after tree after tree does not mean that there is no forest. And yes, there are many different types of trees. Some are quite tall, some are quite old, some of them are evergreens, etc.

But it only takes a small group of them to be considered a forest stand ... and when there is mile after mile after mile - which is how I regard the solid, incontrovertible evidence for UFOs and ETs - one cannot reasonably, rationally and yet with healthy skepticism maintain the position that we are *forest-less*. ;) :D

Again, I don't expect you to see it the way I see it ... until and unless you have my experiences. But as I say, I've NEVER seen a UFO that I know of, for certain, nor a single ET or alien-seeming entity.

Do I still KNOW that we are visited, very likely by quite a few different groups of them, possibly numbering in the hundreds, or even thousands, when it comes to ships, unmanned probes, etc.?

You bet your knickers I do! :)
 
radarmark said:
We disagree, I believe there is a middle ground here. To believe in UFOs and ETs does not mean you have to swallow the whole thing (making that mistake is like saying "I see what I eat, therefore I eat what I see", it does not work). I was not dismissive or ponderous to you, so I would expect the same, please.
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I argue that until YOU, or whoever, has enough evidence to convince YOU ... then to accept MY testimony alone, or even that of a small handful of people, simply becaue they tend to be right about other things [or wrote the Bible, or whatever] ... would be foolish or at least premature.

When you do have sufficient evidence, or reason to believe, however, you should act "accordingly and abundantly" - as the Buddha indicated.

Although I do not routinely go around making a case for all of this [UFOs, ET visitation, etc.] as I've done on this thread that really has nothing directly to do with all that :p ... I like to think of this as a hint of proper and proliferate action, at least by way of the defense of the various individuals and their testimony ~ to support the assertions that "we are not alone."

And not just that we're not alone, but that quite a bit of our science is as yet lacking; thus, with a better grasp of things [GUFT, for instance] ... and a bit of research to sift the wheat from the chaff, ANY impartial, unbiased and *determined* investigator can come to if not precisely, then at least the overall gist of the same conclusions that I have!

I don't dismiss and regard your standpoint as unreasonable ... at least, not overall. Given what you've laid eyes on, or come to in your own investigations, I might myself hold exactly the same viewpoint.

But do you believe in reincarnation?
Do you believe that Christ Jesus was one individual, and the Christ Himself another individual ... and that both Initiates reached their relative points of Enlightenment through repeated incarnations, just as we shall?

Shall I be dismissive of your religious and spiritual beliefs, simply because they differ from mine?

Getting back to matters that most esotericists do tend to believe in, or discuss ... and to try and return from the derailment which occurred when we witnessed a direct, cowardly and mean-spirited attack on all things Theosophical or esoteric ... I would definitely like to try and steer us away from the subject of ETs and UFOs, unless you would like to start a new thread for that, and post a link to it here - which I would, of couse, welcome.

I say again, I CANNOT pretend to understand things as you do - either from the perspective of a scientist, or even in terms of your religious and spiritual pov. We are simply coming at it from a bit of a different angle. While I might gladly sit beside you and wait for the Inner Light ... I will not necessarily experience it the same way, or describe it precisely as you do, even if I am fortunate enough to believe that I have had some kind of experience.

Given the duration since I began this thread, originally as a spinoff from one that Thomas was hosting [thus borrowing his Inspiration, but not intending to steal his thunder] ... I would need to go back and reread, just to remind myself what that inspiration was! :p

I know I wanted to find an open enough venue to talk about what modern-day esoterists often believe, what they practice, why they believe and practice as they do, as well as what they hope to accomplish.

I suspect I was also hoping to indicate - at least partly - how today's esotericists [who once were more freely termed `occultists,' until this took on a negative connotation] draw from or are inspired by Theosophical teachings, as well as modern-day, Theosophically-influenced or similar teachings, traditions & schools.

Obviously in order to the latter I am being a bit ambitious, yet there is at least one person who posts at Interfaith who can speak directly as just such an esotericist ... perhaps with closer Theosophical affiliations than I have, and certainly different perspectives on some of the same matters. And there are others who are definitely curious, perhaps similarly inclined to the Ageless Wisdom teachings and/or the idea that Humanity has always been Divinely guided, whatever form that instruction & guidance may have taken.

This is a good segue to the question of transition from H.P. Blavatsky's writings, teachings and influence to those of Steiner, Alice Bailey, et al ... including why there is a greater influence on the Christ as World Teacher in the latter schools of thought, if indeed they are so heavily influenced and inspired by HPB and the original, mid- to late 19th Century Theosophical revival.

I gotta take a break before I try and make some sense of this, though. :)
 
AndrewX said:
But are there about 50 or 60 different species here visiting us, assisting us in this rather difficult, trying & defining time of human history - with a longer list of precedents than any of us can scarely imagine?
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There are several groups each consisting of several extraterrestrial races that are "visiting" this world currently. However, none of them are here to assist humanity in this difficult, trying, and defining time of human history. They are resource-explorers of outer space that are here to take advantage of weak and divided humanity in this difficult time. They are here to exploit humanity and take over the world covertly.
 
ResistETIntervention said:
There are several groups each consisting of several extraterrestrial races that are "visiting" this world currently. However, none of them are here to assist humanity in this difficult, trying, and defining time of human history. They are resource-explorers of outer space that are here to take advantage of weak and divided humanity in this difficult time. They are here to exploit humanity and take over the world covertly.
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That is an interesting opinion, Friend, but it is fear-based, xenophobic ... and altogether false. Such paranoia, however, will put you *directly* in contact with precisely the very small fraction of ETs which might take advantage of a less-evolved species [ethically & technologically, spiritually & matierally] such as ourselves. In this way, your own psychological phobias and personal issues become the proverbial chink in the armor ~ and this attitude of yours becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. ;) :eek: :(

Notice that evolution itself has provided for a Wondrous, Beautiful symbiotic HARMONY ... whereby the humblest Kingdoms of Life are *by Design* [a Divine PLAN] meant to cooperate with numerous more advanced, Shepherding or Stewarding Kingdoms.

In our own Planetary System, this finds expression as the animal, vegetable and mineral Kingdoms ... which correspond with the solar plexus, sacral centre and root chakra of our Planetary Being [Logos]. Hylozoism is the word the ancient Greeks used for such a notion, whereby every unit of Life is itself a component, or lesser unit within a Greater Whole.

Notice, however, that the WHOLE is Greater than the Sum of its parts. Or as one of my Teachers put it in: The Greater includes the lesser. :)

Humanity as a Kingdom incorporates the three lower Kingdoms, yet we do not supersede them, or *replace* them. Rather, we synthesize them into ONE, mediating 4th Kingdom of Nature. In this Kingdom, the mineral corresponds with our physical body, the vegetable with our vital soul or etheric body, the animal with our astral body or emotional nature ... and a NEW element [Fire, Manas, MIND] is introduced. This latter is known to the occult student in connection with the Kumaras, and is itself a thread of connection with the 5th Kingdom, the Kingdom of Heaven, of God or of Souls. More on that below...

... yet this is where we may begin *safely* to make contact with some of the visiting ET species who now assist us, provided that we are not prey to our own xenophobic, self-destructive habits of thought and psychological projection. Until you can transcend or transform these tendencies into something constructive, I recommend a focus on the Buddhic plane and the call to UNITY. Otherwise, you will only be creating additional obstacles for *yourself*, and for *others* who are definitely already cooperating with the Spiritual Hierarchy of our own Planet, and thereby opening themselves [AUTOMATICALLY, and I would ask you to note this point] to Cooperation with other, non-Earth-based Human evolutions [again, note carefully the words I am choosing].

Biblically, there is much confusion over what our proper relationship should be - to the lesser Kingdoms, to other members of the HUMAN Kingdom, and even to the Greater Kingdoms which are to US the Stewards and Shepherds of our OWN evolution [as we SHOULD be being to each other and to the lower Kingdoms]. Nothing, at least in my experience, is so incapacitating and disheartening on a personal level (resulting in loss of Faith, loss of motivation) as that pernicious blindness which results from the failure to recognize that *Guidance is present* both Globally, as well as individually ... to those who seek to SERVE. Where the desire and aspiration is primarily to one's own betterment, such guidance may also come forth, yet the self-seeking of the personality tends to result in a smouldering of what otherwise would be a spiritual Spark fanned into the Divine Flame of Loving-Wise Compassion.

This thread is intended as an ongoing exploration of the RIGHT RELATIONSHIPS which should, must and WILL exist ... between ALL Kingdoms, given Humanity's acceptance of her Responsibility in the Divine Scheme, including Stewardship & Service to each other [being our `Brother's Keeper'] as well as to ALL lesser Kingdoms of Life.

When you understand that there is a Divine Purpose which is working out on our Planet [including w/in each Individual (Jiva)], you will increasingly be able to replace your innate phobias and apprehension toward the unusual or foreign ... with a growing APPRECIATION of DIVERSITY in all of its many forms, both Planetary, Systemic ~ and as some have already begun to realize, INTER-Planetary and even INTER-SYSTEMIC. The leap in tought toward SYNTHESIS as an eventual Goal becomes not only possible but inevitable and necessary, and while it is not wise to try and force this recognition, it is healthy to consider that "God did not put ME/US in charge of this Universe, nor any other HUMAN individual, or even all of Humanity, or ANY Humanity, nor does any individual or one species/group of species which long persists in this delusion make it far ... or in the long run."

For the moment, I only ask that you accept this possibility as a tempering and leavening agent in your thought (`ResistET') since you have quite possibly been opening yourself subjectively to forces which are no more concerned about your own personal well-being as you are concerned about each blade of grass upon which you step ... as you make your way to the supermarket (to at least acknowledge that your point of view does reflect a small minority of those visiting `strangers' to our little Cosmic neighborhood ... here to get STUFF, as Mr. Sitchin has put it).

I wish in NO WAY to give you ground to come and voice your fears, yet I can assure you that we do not stand in immediate danger in the ways which you have allowed to disturb you. In short, you will find that it is preferable to consider the alternatives that I present, even IF you prefer not to try and understand the matter as as seasoned student of the Ageless Wisdom. Just consider that all of the issues which you can possibly imagine are WELL IN HAND, and are definitely being managed by Beings and Groups of Guardian Forces whose very Purpose is to guarantee that the GREATEST GOOD of the GREATEST NUMBER be Served.

In this case, my own direct experience is plenty adequate to provide the authority needed to make such a statement ... although the best I can offer for the person who unwittingly puts himself into harm's way is to Keep Watch, Take HEART. This simply means: try and leave the matter to those who are qualified to deal with it ... as neither you nor I are individuals of such immediate or direct capacity. Maybe a little less scary Hollywood movies, too? Okay? ;) :)

~~+~~

The real tragedy of our human experience at the present time , I think you will find [`Koyaanisqatsi'] is that despite this GOLDEN AGE in our Beautiful Planet's evolution, many people are addicted to the unhealthy habits of past cycles of evolution, wherein naturally occurring stages become difficult to pass through and evolve beyond.

This means that we are having a hard time RECOGNIZING what has always been taught as part of the Ageless Wisdom - the kernal of Truth within *every religion* and spiritual system, including the motifs & myths whereby Heavenly Archetypes become symbolically (as well as to varying degree literally) *embodied* within the external form.

Other planets all must pass through a similar stage, as this is not unique to our planet ... even though our Planetary *Chain* is known locally as `the Sphere of Suffering.' In order to understand WHY we are undergoing such struggles at this time we must refer to esoteric teachings regarding a stage of our distant past, the prior Chain of seven planets, wherein the MOON was the focus of our evolution.

Students familiar with Alice Bailey's writings will find useful indications on pp. 412-417 of A Treatise on Cosmic Fire. The takeaway from this is that there are Seven Kumaras which correspond with the esoteric head centres (themselves corresponding to the seven *major centers* or chakras). `Kumara' is a Sanskrit term meaning `mortal with DIFFICULTY' - owing to the Advanced spiritual & evolutionary stage of such Beings, Who Themselves had already reached Perfection during a much earlier cycle of evolution, and came to our planet 18 million years ago by way of the Venusian Chain of Earth's own Scheme.

Experienced students might benefit from a perusal of the section on VENUS in Appendix III of Esoteric Astrology, yet the following excerpt will help to make a point:
"Certain facts have already been grasped and realised by the average occult student who has been pondering this teaching with care. He is aware that the juncture of Spirit-matter and mind, or manas, was effected during the third root-race, and that the definitely human family became present upon earth from that date. He knows that this was brought about by the coming, in bodily Presence, of certain great Entities, and he has learned that these Entities came from the Venusian chain, that They achieved the necessary juncture, undertook the government of the planet, founded the occult Hierarchy, and that—though some remain with the chain—the remainder have returned to Their originating source. This in many ways sums up the totality of the present knowledge."
​
For those seeking a toehold, let's fill in the blank regarding the remaining Chakras or energy centres within the body of the Planetary Logos [`God'] ... within Whom we live and move and have our Being.

Humanity itself forms the THROAT center, or the center of higher Creativity ... whose lower correspondence is the sacral center, earlier mentioned in connection with the Vegetable Kingdom. The numbers connected with these two Kingdoms are 4 and 2, respectively, and there is a Harmonic here ... although the Spiritual Rays governing these two centers are Ray 3 (throat) and Ray 7 (sacral), again showing a relationship.

The Spiritual Hierarchy, which already demonstrates that Perfection (Active Intelligence, plus Love-Wisdom, plus WILL) toward which Humanity is tending ... serves as the Heart Centre of the Planetary Logos (in physical expression).

The Kingdom "where the Will of God is known" ... called the Father's House in Christian symbolism, is known as Shamballa in the Eastern religions, and this is the Crown chakra, corresponding with the 1st Ray of Purpose. From here, the Seven Major Chakras are capable of being controlled or directed by the Seven Head Centres mentioned earlier ... and it becomes apparent that until the Planetary Entity [Logos, using the Earth as its vehicle] experiences HARMONY or balance within & between the various centers [KINGDOMS], there will continue to be what we know of individually as mis-alignment between & within the various vehicles (each with its seven centers of energy). Experienced on the physical, astral and mental planes (the worlds of form) ... this takes expression as all sorts of planetary calamity of lesser or greater scale.

Looking outside ourselves (either individually, or collectively) in an effort to attribute blame for the cause of our unrest and suffering ... simply evidences that we have yet to understand the very most BASIC of the Laws of Being. These include Cause & Effect, as well as the fact that only through observance of the already-existent Divine ORDER (in the Heavens, governing ALL cycles) can the individual and collective Humanity attain to its fore-ordained PURPOSE for which we have all come into being.

It also becomes obvious that we are holding back the progress of the entire planet, especially the lower kingdoms, as we remain STUCK in outmoded models of partial or limited co-existence. To help get back on track, we might benefit from observing the DIVINE ORDER which is already IMMANENT within Nature, which governs all forms of Life prior to or subservient to the Human Kingdom ... and which also Seeks through Loving-Wise Intelligence, and PURPOSE, to safely Guide Humanity through the present cycles of transition and beyond.

Which CYCLES are these? I recommend a study of Rule TEN of A Treatise on White Magic for the student familiar with Alice Bailey's teachings ... as well as a look at chapters 1 and 3 (Intro) of Esoteric Astrology.

In short, we should all know by now that Piscean influence is waning rapidly, as Aquarian energies are increasingly affecting the Human Kingdom, yet this is only a partial explanation for why there is so much unrest ... and does not speak directly to the Coming of the World Teacher which it is my hope to address more fully in a forthcoming post.

Apologies to Servetus, et al, who asked about the relationship between HPB and AAB, as well as Steiner, plus other esoteric schools & groups which are definitely seeking to bring to the public's awareness the significance of the New Advent of the Christ/Bodhisattva. This, I think many of us (of all types of backgrounds) will agree, is also at the crux or Heart of the change taking place on the planet today.


P.S. ~ I did leave off one very important chakra ... ironically (?) in this case, one that is perhaps receiving some undue stimulation. It is the Ajna center, or brow chakra, whereby the VISION of the Divine Plan is able to precipitate from the Hierarchy into Humanity (via a group of dedicated World SERVERS) ... thereby helping to work out the Purpose of the Planetary Logos. All true Disciples form a part of this Center.
 
AndrewX said:
That is an interesting opinion, Friend, but it is fear-based, xenophobic ... and altogether false. Such paranoia, however, will put you *directly* in contact with precisely the very small fraction of ETs which might take advantage of a less-evolved species [ethically & technologically, spiritually & matierally] such as ourselves. In this way, your own psychological phobias and personal issues become the proverbial chink in the armor ~ and this attitude of yours becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Notice that evolution itself has provided for a Wondrous, Beautiful symbiotic HARMONY ... whereby the humblest Kingdoms of Life are *by Design* [a Divine PLAN] meant to cooperate with numerous more advanced, Shepherding or Stewarding Kingdoms.
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Were the Native Americans merely xenophobic and their suspicion fear-based when they encountered Westerners who “visited” the native’s land without their permission and established themselves? The Westerners came with advanced technology that the natives could not comprehend. They lured the natives with trinket technology and exploited tribal conflicts to their advantage in conquering the new land. In the process, the natives were decimated and the land and its resources were taken away. This is not to say that the Westerners were evil; they merely wanted the resources of this land and they used any means to get them.

Life in the universe is not so different from life in this world. In physical reality, there is always competition for survival, and stronger beings will dominate weaker beings if they can. Now, humanity is the native of this world abundant in resources that these ETs covet. Humanity is weak and divided as the Native Americans were. Consider these ETs “visiting” the world, coaxing humanity with trinket extraterrestrial technology, luring with false promises of greater wealth, power, and world dominion, and establishing themselves in this solar system in a growing number each year. It would be a mistake to presume that they have anything but self-serving motives. You cannot discern their true intentions for what they are, if you are already persuaded by them.

True benevolent races would not intervene in human affairs, coax humanity with technological, scientific, or spiritual advancement, and lure people with greater wealth or power. They would not establish themselves here in the hopes of gaining human allegiance for the purpose of exploiting humanity. They would merely impart the Wisdom humanity needs in encountering the intelligent life and emerging into the universe it knows nothing about. They would empower humanity by counseling it to prepare and thwart the covert invasion, rather than disempowering it with “assistance” it never asked for.

AndrewX said:
(to at least acknowledge that your point of view does reflect a small minority of those visiting `strangers' to our little Cosmic neighborhood ... here to get STUFF, as Mr. Sitchin has put it).
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On the contrary, as can be learned from human history, strangers “visiting” any new land without the native’s permission have almost always had self-serving goals, regardless of what purpose they claimed to bear. They were not the minority; they were the majority.
 
I believe my point about your projecting your own concerns (valid as they may be) is now quite obvious.
One can observe this by reading your first post, my response ... and your reply. ;)

Again, I do not suggest that your apprehension is totally unfounded or even unusual. Science fiction authors by the many score have already expressed all that you have ... and usually in quite entertaining, if somewhat alarming ways.

My point is simply that you do not yet understand even a small fraction of the natural processes which *already* govern - and CAN GOVERN - Life on our little planet ... GIVEN Humanity's cooperation.

In short, we need look to other civilizations and planets neither for our spiritual salvation, nor for a group of beings to demonize ... for as you have pointed out, our *own planet* and even Western civilization has an established record of the kinds of conquests which upset you.

The more we understand about life on Earth, the more we shall realize that the Cosmos is indeed the Macrocosm to our little Earthly microcosm.

But Friend, how will you understand "Life in Transition," Powaqqatsi ... when you do not even understand what has already occurred in the exchange between ET civilizations and modern Humanity in the past 75 years?

There are some who say that the peaceful visitors to our planet came precisely in concern when we exploded our first atomic bomb. This was not to exploit and conquer us, or even to steal our precious minerals, should we not have survived the experience of the World War. Rather, if you study the movie The Day the Earth Stood Still, you will get a good idea as to what drew their attention, and why. [Original, please, do try to *avoid* the modern remake with all its special affects, poor acting and complete muddling of the author's original message.]

An exchange occurred between Ike Eisenhower and an ambassadorial group of ETs at Edwards AFB in 1954 ... but these visitors did not offer trinkets or technological wonders. Instead, they offered to assist us with our progression toward a peaceful global civilization, wherein ALL of Humanity could and would be able to have the basics of life (food, clothing, shelter).

The implications were that our energy problems could also be largely avoided ~ which the ETs could well anticipate, and far better than ourselves, for reasons you ought to understand by now. This means that in addition to the basics, every citizen of the planet might be able to access an online forum by now as you & I do. An adequate educational system might even be in place, whereby even those people in "3rd world" countries could be taught and prepared for how to deal with inevitable global changes ...

... which I wonder if you realize, are desirable for us all.

Those who wished, and still prefer, to perpetuate the old ways, won the day back in 1954. Yes, an exchange was made, but again, all of these things are SUPERVISED. When you understand the latter, then even our mistakes - as in 1954 (and so many times before) - take on new meaning ... but not unless you realize a greater LIGHT, wherein there IS a Cosmic Order (and a Solar Order, as also a PLANETARY Order).

Try and grasp what is being said by the film The Day the Earth Stood Still. The film was produced in 1951, the original novel written in 1941. ETs have been visiting Earth since even before its fiery formation was complete, for other planets within our own System are directly involved and their own respective Human evolutions are a PART OF ours, and vice versa.

Eisenhower may have opted for a technology exchange, giving us cell phones and multi-core computers today ... but these innovations would have come along anyway. The choice to gain military & technological superiority at the cost of global peace and a more stable civilization all around ... can certainly be considered a sad one. But ResistET, let's try and avoid all the doom and gloom, okay? :rolleyes:

In the end, all it does is show that you are still working - as are most of us - on some of the BASICS. Fight or flight, the Good of the GROUP vs. how can I get ahead ... and while I quite understand that these things concern you, I will assure you, the situation does not disturb the true esotericist in the same way, because s/he already KNOWS that even Humanity's foolish, short-sighted choices, made by the FEW, as in 1954 and other years, do not truly reflect the VOICES, the INVOCATIVE CRY of Humanity as a WHOLE ... which is what the Christ [Bodhisattva, the World Teacher] is listening for.

The Hierarchy knows well that there are those among us who would gladly trade the whole planet, and more, if that's what it took to get them into a Super-Duper Wal-Mart somewhere, just so they could go on a shopping spree.

And yes, if there may be those other civilizations out there which have unscrupulously managed to attain - in small numbers - to the same kind of technological & material superiority over others, by disregarding Group Good and exploiting others, well don't you worry your pretty little head about it.



Try and take to heart the advice of THOSE WHO KNOW ... and:
  • Keep it SIMPLE :)
  • Focus on the POSITIVE :)
  • Leave matters beyond your immediate control to those who DO have things well in hand :)
Otherwise, you mostly just make waves ... and if there's one thing Oddball always kept reminding us, it was:
"Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves?"
​
I told you already, every little emanation like that is pretty much the best you can do to raise an antenna, tuning in directly to groups (human or otherwise) who DO have the self-interest of exploiting unenlightened entities such as yourself ...

... and Siriusly, do you really think it's wise to play Devil's Advocate?
If not, then quit doing so, even unwittingly!!! ;)

Or, just keep it up. As one of my mentor's often says, "Argue for your limitations, and their yours!"

Namaskar
 
I really dislike the idea that some religions and even non-religious people concider certian things and occult but not others below is a brief deffinition of what comprises an occult.
occult
1. a. of or characteristic of magical, mystical, or supernatural arts, phenomena, or influences

2. beyond ordinary human understanding

3. secret or esoteric (which means 1. restricted to or intended for an enlightened or initiated minority, esp because of abstruseness or obscurity an esoteric cult Compare
2. difficult to understand; abstruse an esoteric statement
3. not openly admitted; private


Now after reading the above would you concider the following to be an occult I myself say they are.
military/ special forces reason deffinitly falls under # 2 and #3
the Vatican again numbe 2 and 3 and even 1 the practice of exorcisms we wont go with what they do with alter boys and how they solve that problem deffinitly #3
most mainstream religions have adopted paganism ways from the very begining even the pentagram is used by christians so if paganism is an occult the so is christianity.
As far as radical groups ie the branch devidians, or anyother group who hold people against there will are not concidered occults they are concidered terrorists and should be delt with accordingly.
that is my view of what and how I view the term occult you may dissagree or not that is your choice
 
I can only comment from my experience, and from that of people I've known, or authors I've read. Here, on this thread ... and used in the context of religious and/or spiritual belief(s), I would correlate Occultism with what is now often called Esotericism, or `the Ageless Wisdom.'

Esotericists in the Theosophical (and related) traditions believe that there is an underlying Truth behind all outer manifestation(s). We are capable of knowing something about this Truth, of learning how it is that the Universe - and therefore ourselves - have come into being. The study of the Mysteries, lesser or Greater, and the resultant life of SERVICE is therefore the Occult Way.

Most esotericists I know, whether professing an affiliation with modern Theosophy or not, tend to believe that behind all outer religions there is an Inner Essence or kernel of Wisdom ... such that no tradition ever has yet on this planet expressed the WHOLE of the Dharma. For we are told in the Tao Te Ching that "the Tao that can be named is *not* the Eternal Tao."

Thus, while I might not exclude the various fringe groups one can readily mention, or even the U.S. (and other) government's dabblings & experimentations with drugs and psychic phenomena ... I would prefer to focus on the more mainstream, or better known of the contemporary Theosophical and related organizations, whether these (some of them) are Masonic and affiliated with Western esoteric traditions, Eastern and associated with such religions as Buddhism & Hinduism, or more strictly considered as direct offshoots or progressions of Theosophy ~ sometimes called Neo-Theosophy ... as Anthoposophy, the Alice Bailey & Agni Yoga Teachings, or the writings of Lucille Cedarcrans.

Inclusivity is always the Key (as per 2nd Ray energy and the Quality of Consciousness which we know of and experience as *Expansion*) ... so the point I'm trying to make is that we should not confuse any of the contemporary definitions of `occult' or even `occultism' with what has been accepted by occultists themselves for many thousands of years.

Yes, the outer presentation keeps changing, updating with languages and geography, cultures and "the times." What underlies, vivifies and itself *defines* Occultism, however, is TIMELESS & ETERNAL. That being said, there are as many understandings as there are students of the Wisdom ... and likely many more. ;)

Namaskar
 
Servetus said:
By the way, Andrew, do you have any information on what caused the split between HPB and Rudolf Steiner? I have looked into the matter in some detail, but all I could find was that, in terms of doctrine, Steiner was more Christocentric.

I used to read, out of curiosity, both Theosophy and Anthroposophy and put HPB's Secret Doctrine on my list of top-ten books in the Media section. Interesting thread, thanks.
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To finally respond directly to your question, Servetus, I'm afraid I do not have any real insight into Steiner's choice ... as it's been some time since I read much regarding Anthroposophy. I am a little more familiar with Max Heindel's modern re-stimulation of Rosicrucianism, which I believe probably occurred at the behests of the Master Rakoczi. This Adept likely was the one who appeared to Heindel sometime in or after late 1907.

Heindel got his start by attending one of Steiner's lectures, but felt that he wouldn't be able to proceed further unless he did so on his own. My guess is that Steiner felt similarly, and quite possibly the emphasis on the Coming of Christ was a key issue which put him at odds with many Theosophists of the day.

I would point out, as per Wikipedia, that Annie Besant put Steiner in charge of the esoteric section of the German & Austrian Theosophical Society. His falling out occurred in 1912/13, precisely over the announcement of J. Krishnamurti as the vehicle for the World Teacher.

And I would also note that Theosophists have remained divided since this incident ... which understandably confused and still confuses many in whom the Intuitive faculty is not yet sufficiently awakened, or the mental power of discernment (viveka) adequately functioning.

In a nutshell, then, it is possible to gain insight into the question of what happened with the Krishnamurti/World Teacher `Project,' as it is sometimes called ... ending with the dissolving of the Order of the Eastern Star in August of 1929.

Unfortunately, at least imho, there have been *too few* students as yet who have been able to communicate adequately or explain to the satisfaction of other students just what was occurring on Hierarchical levels, or in the exchange between Krishnamurti and the Christ Himself, plus other Masters ... leading up to the final unfortunate outcome.

I stand 100% by the only known statement to the public by the Christ (in recent times), published in 1932 in the book Through the Eyes of the Masters: Meditations and Portraits. The matter is explained by the World Teacher from the standpoint of esoteric astrology and esoteric psychology, with the specific aim of providing precisely the needed guidance to students of Theosophy and esotericism who might be confused or dismayed at what had just occurred regarding the Krishnamurti incident.

If the Intuition is functioning, and if one is open to spiritual insight ... nothing more on that matter need be said. ;)

Besides this, and only slightly contradicting what I just said, there is at least one additional place where the Christ does speak to us directly in the past 100 years. When the Master DK (Djwhal Khul, `the Tibetan') gave out The Great Invocation through Alice Bailey in 1936, 1940 and 1945 (Stanzas I, II & III, respectively), the dictation is said to have come to Alice WORD FOR WORD. This was not the usual method of dictation which the Tibetan followed, as such precision was neither possible nor necessary except in this case (and likely a few others of which I'm unaware).

We are told that the Prayer/Invocation itself is an extremely ancient one, being used since Atlantean times by the Christ Himself (perhaps meaning whichever Individual occupied the Hierarchical Office of World Teacher?). An earlier presentation of the same Prayer, carefully adapted for the need and consciousness of the people of 2100 years ago came in the form of the Lord's Prayer, Our Father, or Paternoster. And indeed, any student with an open mind and loving heart should be able to line the two Invocations up side by side and see the obvious parallels.

One reason that esotericists are asked to use the Great Invocation, as we have been now for over 75 years, is that it is - as I have just mentioned - a direct request from the Hierarchy and by the Christ Himself. Although some have found it acceptable to modify the words in order to be more politically correct, or in an understandable effort to be more inclusive, my own preference is to sound the mantram (aloud or otherwise) in precisely the fashion in which it was originally dictated. This, when combined with the power of intent and when done in the true spirit of selflessness will of necessity lead to most powerful results (in the Group Life and for Humanity as a whole), and is a true act of SERVICE in the life of the disciple, aspirant or Initiate.

Not to sound redundant, but one might note that the Christ Himself, the Masters and many thousands of esotericists worldwide have now been using the Great Invocation publicly (as opposed to on the Inner Planes only, or on Hierarchical levels) for over 75 years ... and the question of efficacy is addressed in numerous places in the writings of the Tibetan Master, as well as later on by additional students and commentators.

The bottom line regarding the different emphases on the question of the Christ as World Teacher all seem to me to come down to a matter of semantics, plus timing. When HPB was writing and serving to spearhead the modern experimental project whereby certain of the Masters made the sacrifice of trying to reach, appeal to and gather a potential nucleus for a future Group of World Servers, it was known or quite expected that the effort would *not* be 100% successful. Nor was it, as the Masters themselves have told us many times over.

HPB and Alice Bailey both tell us they regret ever having mentioned the Masters at all ... for reasons which should become obvious, even if you simply read THIS THREAD here at Interfaith. We had someone recently prove quite beautifully that the Truth will always have enemies, and this is the same spirit which Crucified the World Teacher 2100 years ago, still hounding the modern PROPHETess who did more than perhaps anyone in her own century to HERALD the Coming One ... Who HPB knew quite well would be one day returning (or Reappearing) to the outer world.

I cannot say for certain whether HPB was aware that the Christ might make an effort to overshadow Krishnamurti, but I suspect she had plenty of insight into future possibilities. That is just my hunch, and I would be surprised to learn that such teachings were not part of various instructions carefully presented to students of the Esoteric Section, or intended for such distribution at some point in their spiritual unfoldment.

One thing that an esoteric astrology student should be aware of is that in the years 1899/1900, the Piscean cycle of influence came to an end ... at least from one point of view or means of reckoning. From another, this date might be fixed at 1945, when the Christ most definitely assumed Responsibilities for the Aquarian Era and made clear His intent to the Hierarchy of Reappearing ... as He promised and foretold.

Since either or both of these dates, we can be certain that the New Era has already begun ... and that the Piscean influences have been waning. We are most definitely on the cusp, and this means that *PART* of the reasons for the unrest and chaotic condition of the world today (physically, astrally, mentally and on spiritual levels) is owing to the changing of the guard.

The Tibetan Master writes about this transition at length in 19 volumes of dictated material, yet Alice also offers her own commentary as an esotericist in 5 books of her OWN authorship. Any student who devotes more than superficial attention to the matter, and within whom discernment plus the intuition are beginning to function, should easily be able to realize that these 24 books are authored by two different writers entirely.

For the record, I'll look up the source in which HPB is being shown around an underground museum (in the custodianship of the Master KH) ... and comments on a statue of the Master Jesus ... at which point she is told, "We esteem him highest among the Adepts," or some similar such.

I also don't think HPB was confused for one moment by the difference, even between this High Adept ... and the HEAD (and Heart) of the Occult Hierarchy, the Christ/Bodhisattva/World Teacher. If one studies her writings closely, I think it will become apparent that she has *always* argued for what Christians call the 2nd Person of the Trinity ... under whatever name [A Rose is a Rose!] this 2nd Logos may be known in any given day, culture, religion or motif ... while the particular ADEPTS or esoteric Teachers WITHIN WHOM this 2nd Logos may be - to a greater or lesser degree - REALIZED ... will vary by name, Ray, and Hierarchical function or particular office, roles of Service, etc.

As always, we are asked to avoid glamour and undue emphasis on personalities, and to realize that no true esoteric Teacher asks or demands personal allegiances or devotion, much less the kind of worship which is usually showered upon the guru. I cannot apologize for the wrong-doing and abuse of position of every Sexy Sadie out there. I could always be mean-spirited and say something condescending like, "dear child, you should have known better" ... yet, true as this may be, it seems unsensitive (to certain people's experiences and learning path) and unduly harsh.

Perhaps in the future, the Truth may be discovered with less disillusionment! ;) :)

Namaskar
 
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