Spiritual Stages Advice?

[Persona]

What is important is that these things are done in love, whether the other can accept that expression or not is irrelevant. Never allow your love to be dependent on the other, simply continue sharing it with no regard for its outcome. Gradually, you will find that love returns to you many times more than what you have put out, you will find it difficult to continue being miserly with it. It is not like money, where the more you spend the less you have, it is utterly opposite to this, it is that the more you put out the more you receive - this is a law.

Beautifully put!

I agree that love is based on an understanding, but understanding of what?

Understanding (to our best ability) of what is best for ourselves & of those we love.
IE: A group was trying to show love to a village in an economically poor country by shipping out gently used shirts. Sounds loving right? Well, this put local clothing shops out of business because they couldn't compete with "free."

Ordinarily, the concepts of love people have are utterly false, you will have to know what the real thing is, that love which is not directed or focused on the other but rather grows in you. It is strange that all are seeking love, yet they have never created it within themselves - now they will go into marriage thinking this one has love, and both are thinking the same, but in reality both find they have been tricked and thus divorce happens.

I agree, Lunitik.
Only recently have I realized this though.
I used to depend on guys for my self-esteem, & of course marriage was a disappointment because nobody can give us self-esteem but our selves.
Intellectually, I realize that when I love someone, it should come from my heart with no strings attached, just like a dance for the joy of it. Yet emotionally, I feel like there has to be reciprocity. I'm still learning how to apply this in a way that is loving to myself & others in harmony.

The Bible states that God is within us all, and I agree with this. Realizing this, encountering that part within us which is God brings us to the peak of human potential: 'know ye not that ye are divine?'

Isn't that intriguing!
I can't help but wonder what potential we have!
...For healing ourselves & others in mind, body & spirit!
What do you think?

What is the nature of 'pushing our buttons'? It means the ego has felt it is being threatened in some way. That which is your true self can look upon this reaction and analyze it utterly detached, it can see the foolishness of this response. Usually it only observes after the fact though, because most remain slaves to the mind, they react entirely on the thought without looking first at its validity.

Today my buttons got pushed pretty good, by the button creator herself, my mom.
I exploded (pms & an argument with my husband earlier contributed)... but it was much of her actions too. I needed to assert myself because she kept disrespecting me. After a cooling off time, we discussed it again calmly & finally she respected me. Yeah, I probably said some things I shouldn't have, but our relationship is better overall, than if I would've just been quiet.

For me, anger is never justified, MLK has actually shown this is superb ways, he has remained utterly level headed and focused on his target exactly because he has not reacted with anger. The Black Panthers were diametrically opposite, their every deed seemed to be based in anger, and they have accomplished comparatively little.

It's like Aristotle taught, "Anybody can become angry - that is easy, but to be angry with the right person and to the right degree and at the right time and for the right purpose, and in the right way - that is not within everybody's power and is not easy."

This is the trouble, the self enjoys the illusion of privacy, and thus puts up boundaries. Certainly, you must always act on what you feel is the best course in a given moment, but again I will draw on the Bible as an example, for it says God watches your ever action and thought - again I agree with the statement - but then what meaning can privacy really have?

No, hiding things from those around you merely creates a burden on your heart, this is why we have psychologists and the like - they are essentially professional listeners, their sole purpose being to provide an outlet for all that you have bottled up trying to remain private.

I think we want to have privacy because we feel safer that way...
I'm very private, partly because I seem to have some nosey, gossipy neighbors & I don't like to be gossiped about. I live in an area permeated with the Mormon cult. I don't trust most people around me, including family. So, I create privacy to feel safe... I'll open up the second someone shows I can trust them... Like with you, I hardly know you, but I've opened up to you because you're open.

Most people are very private, & would rather pay someone to listen than go through the risk of finding friends to be open to. Still, what you mentioned about how God knows all... & what we've discussed about the humanity in us all... it may be better to "be the change I want to see in the world."

 

[Lunitik]

I feel like there has to be reciprocity. I'm still learning how to apply this in a way that is loving to myself & others in harmony.

Have you looked into this? Do you understand why there is this feeling? It is because when the other is risking equally, it provides you with a certain sense of security. Do not worry so much about the how, worst case scenario your love is rejected, it will be hard to see this because it will hurt at the time, but in fact you create an environment where love becomes more difficult in the future. This is why I recommend meditation on love, simply giving your total energy the flavor of love, for when you realize the abundance you carry within what does it matter that a little has been wasted?

I can't help but wonder what potential we have!
...For healing ourselves & others in mind, body & spirit!
What do you think?

All that Jesus has performed has come from that place of pure love, for when he says it is not he that does these things it is the father, this is what he means... God is exactly love, merely grow in this.

If love is at the base, rather than ego, it is perfectly safe to go into these, to experiment a little when you feel dissolved in love, but there are many occult schools which go directly and these can be rather dangerous for obvious reasons. Love is that energy which comprises all things felt through the heart, when you are in tune with that, you can direct it as you wish.

It is not to show off though, and if you have truly given up your will to God what will you do with this power? It actually is quite draining, so it will harm you spiritually, perhaps at most it is a fascinating distraction along the way. You must understand that it is a trust though, a kind of test, it must not be abused!

Yeah, I probably said some things I shouldn't have, but our relationship is better overall, than if I would've just been quiet.

Do you think you needed the explosion to gather the momentum needed to address the real issues, or could have have perhaps cooled down and approached them directly? Guilt is not useful, simply look at what has happened and see whether it can be improved on in the future.

I think we want to have privacy because we feel safer that way...

Yes, I would simply suggest looking into whether this feeling is legitimate or whether this is simply your perception? Often, people desire strongly to be accepted, so we may hide things which we think may jeopardize that. The ego is fueled by others opinions, yet I would suggest that true security can only be found within. When you find that security which is called salvation, I do not think you'll find that others opinions matter to you at all.

 

[seattlegal]

I know that truth is more complicated than labels and stages, but it can be helpful to navigate our way, if we can define common experiences.

Like Erikson and Freud defined stages of human development, some, like Jim Marion have defined Spiritual stages of development...
6. Psychic Consciousness

7. Dark Night of the Senses
<...>
12. Nondual Consciousness

In my experience, we don't necessarily go through these stages like a ladder... but more integrally.

Does anybody know much about #7 - #12?
Any guidance for this, especially the dark night of the soul... or as Carl Jung explained, confronting you shadow self?

I'm thinking that Dark Night of the Senses would be Makyo, whereas Kensho would be the realization of the nonduality of subject and object. Confronting your shadow self might be similar to Mara. (Wait! No difference between subject and object? *doh*)
{Sorry in taking so long to respond.}

 

[radarmark]

From “Putting on the Mind of Christ” by Marion. Try a library, but used at Amazon for <$5.
http://books.google.com/books?id=30EQxw7TEN4C&pg=PR4&lpg=PR4&dq=dark+night+of+the+soul+%22subtle+consciousness%22&source=bl&ots=u1q2gDQbRR&sig=k-9rESJ5mA9kmc6Pa_poA5hvlnE&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ikxaT9TrIsjq0gGQhLCpDw&sqi=2&ved=0CEIQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=dark%20night%20of%20the%20soul%20%22subtle%20consciousness%22&f=false
The source for most is "Dark Night of the Soul" by St John of the Cross (see Dark Night of the Soul - Christian Classics Ethereal Library) the Christian reference for a mystic.

 

[Lunitik]

This is the functional link intended above.

radarmark: For future reference, everything after the first '&' references a perl script, you can simply drop it all from the URL... often forums do not appreciate it.

 

[Persona]

Have you looked into this? Do you understand why there is this feeling? It is because when the other is risking equally, it provides you with a certain sense of security. Do not worry so much about the how, worst case scenario your love is rejected, it will be hard to see this because it will hurt at the time, but in fact you create an environment where love becomes more difficult in the future. This is why I recommend meditation on love, simply giving your total energy the flavor of love, for when you realize the abundance you carry within what does it matter that a little has been wasted?

Yes, I think it's because I grew up ignored a lot, & felt guilty for taking up space & unappreciated. I ran away from home again & again - always looking for others to make me feel more appreciated. I think this might be why I'm often late to things, or why I picked a husband that cares more than I do... I feel safer if I don't care as much, or at least not more than they do.

I think I've tapped into that love you mentioned, when meditating & still - or just being inspired about something. And I understand that when we are in tune with the love within us, it's like the "well of living water" which causes us to never thirst again.

Yet, we have limits... 24 hours in a day. I've heard that most people can only maintain ongoing relationships with a max of 50 people. We may have a lot of love in our hearts... but only so much energy & time, you know?

All that Jesus has performed has come from that place of pure love, for when he says it is not he that does these things it is the father, this is what he means... God is exactly love, merely grow in this.

I think this is even more beautiful than the superficial traditional Christian definition, because it's empowering!

If love is at the base, rather than ego, it is perfectly safe to go into these, to experiment a little when you feel dissolved in love, but there are many occult schools which go directly and these can be rather dangerous for obvious reasons. Love is that energy which comprises all things felt through the heart, when you are in tune with that, you can direct it as you wish.

It is not to show off though, and if you have truly given up your will to God what will you do with this power? It actually is quite draining, so it will harm you spiritually, perhaps at most it is a fascinating distraction along the way. You must understand that it is a trust though, a kind of test, it must not be abused!

Are you referring to perceiving spiritual energies?
Do you think mental telepathy or communication is possible?
I wonder sometimes. Even when I've thought of you, the last week, I've felt a spiritual feeling. But that could just be me resonating with how we've related.

Do you think you needed the explosion to gather the momentum needed to address the real issues, or could have have perhaps cooled down and approached them directly? Guilt is not useful, simply look at what has happened and see whether it can be improved on in the future.

I think I needed the momentum of the explosion.
I had already talked to her before & it was stressful.
Yet, she was disrespecting me about the same things I already discussed with her. And when I exploded to her, she completely invalidated me by blaming others for me being upset with her. Like she said, "You've been talking to your sister, haven't you?" etc. I hadn't talked with my sister for a long time, but she too, has issues with my mom. I wish I could get along better with her. We were supposed to go see a movie today, but neither of us called. We need a break. I think we get along better when we see less of each other.

Yes, I would simply suggest looking into whether this feeling is legitimate or whether this is simply your perception? Often, people desire strongly to be accepted, so we may hide things which we think may jeopardize that. The ego is fueled by others opinions, yet I would suggest that true security can only be found within. When you find that security which is called salvation, I do not think you'll find that others opinions matter to you at all.

That makes sense.
I've been reading a book about a man who is about to die & he seems to have gone through a lot of these spiritual stages... including not caring so much what other people think. Being considerate, but not overly concerned with what others think about him.

I appreciate you helping me through this.
Thanks for your kindness.

 

[Persona]

I'm thinking that Dark Night of the Senses would be Makyo, whereas Kensho would be the realization of the nonduality of subject and object. Confronting your shadow self might be similar to Mara. (Wait! No difference between subject and object? *doh*)
{Sorry in taking so long to respond.}

Thanks... I imagine these stages have a lot of different terms in various belief systems.

 

[Persona]

Radarmark and Lunitik,
Thanks for posting the link regarding this book by Jim Marion... Putting on the Mind of Christ.
It's really like 2 books in one.
The 1st half is about the spiritual stages.
The 2nd half is about realizing a deeper meaning of Christianity.
I don't agree with everything he says (ie his views on newborn innocence and homosexuality)... but overall, I love his book!

 

[Lunitik]

Yet, we have limits... 24 hours in a day. I've heard that most people can only maintain ongoing relationships with a max of 50 people. We may have a lot of love in our hearts... but only so much energy & time, you know?

Our limits coincide with our current capacity. It is like if you do not eat sufficiently for a few days, you will become drained and perhaps faint. The same is true of love, and meditation is to dip into the reserve, as is prayer. Drink, for existence or God is not miserly, there is no question of running out of it for it is inexhaustible. It is only when we try to do it ourselves that we find there is a limit.

Are you referring to perceiving spiritual energies?
Do you think mental telepathy or communication is possible?
I wonder sometimes. Even when I've thought of you, the last week, I've felt a spiritual feeling. But that could just be me resonating with how we've related.

I do not think they are possible, I know it is so, but yes, it is related to spiritual energies as well as sensitivity to them. That feeling you describe is because your soul finds enjoyment in my words, it is because it recognizes something in them which it has always longed for. It is good, but please pay closer attention to when it happens, those are the words which will be more beneficial for you going forward. Existence always guides if you pay attention.

I think we get along better when we see less of each other.

Yes, family members can very easily get under your skin, as can some friends. It is always those closest who can rile us up the most. I think this is related to what you said earlier about marrying a man who cares more than you, and the running away. You have not found the cause of any, it is simply the same thing manifesting in different ways.

Jesus says you must hate your father and mother, brother and sister - indeed your own life - to be his disciple. It means you should learn to be less attached to these relationships, less defined by these interactions. I think perhaps you are a very sensitive person, and so easily affected by what is going around, which quickly becomes irritation. You will feel like you are becoming colder as you pull away, yet try to still share your love from this distance. Truly, you will find that you enjoy all your relationships more if you can do this, although it will not be obvious how this can be perhaps.

That makes sense.
I've been reading a book about a man who is about to die & he seems to have gone through a lot of these spiritual stages... including not caring so much what other people think. Being considerate, but not overly concerned with what others think about him.

Yes, this is the same place you must find. You are a female, so it will always be that emotions define much of your experience. Still you must not identify so much with them, or whatsoever the mind comes up with - the real you is that which watches and empowers both.

Perhaps it will be beneficial for you if you try to notice for instance when you are walking whether it is you or whether you body is doing this? You can look at thoughts and see whether they are arising from you, even your emotions. There is a point within you which is simply watching it all, inquiring into this will help you to create separation between the doer and the true you. If this becomes uncomfortable for you, please do not continue, but it will help you find what is a comfortable distance for you at this time.

I appreciate you helping me through this.
Thanks for your kindness.

I thank you for allowing me to help!

 

[Bhaktajan II]

I'll speak quickly grasshopper. For the siege lays ahead beyond the peat ...


The 5 topics of discussion addressed in the Bhagavad-gita:

Three are eternal:
1 Isvara - (Controller) - God
2 Jiva-atma – (Indiviual Soul) - Living Entity
3 Prakriti – Energy (Material & Spiritual)
4 Kala – “Time”

One is transient:
5 Karma – Action = a) artha—wealth, abundance b) kama—enjoyment, pleasure
c) dharma—work, duty

Remember: Definition of 'Yoga' = to link up to, to re-unite (also see entomology of the word 'religion'.)

Remember: Mantra Meditation = classical sitting silent prayer.
See my post: http://www.interfaith.org/forum/classical-silent-mantra-meditation-12727.html
Kosher parve ---believe when I tell you bubella.

Remember: The three stages of yoga practice=
A) Karma-yoga, yoga of action.
B) Sankya-yoga, yoga of analytical study of scripture.
C) Bhakti-yoga, yoga of Devotion to Krishna

Remember: The three progressive stages of yogic enlightenment:

I) Brahman-Realization, ---the impersonal manifestation of God, nothingness, the field, the void; Brahman is also used as a general reference for God, et al.

II) Paramatma Realization, the presence of god as the nucleus of every inanimate spark and particle of matter and energy in the universe, and also god as present in every animate individual soul as the witnessing 'Supersoul'—hence the word, 'Param (super) atma' (soul)

Remember: Conscience living beings are capable, by birth-right, of progressing through the following 5 stages of spiritual maturity:


A) anna-maya = recognize the manifest mercy of god as 'food'.
B) prana-maya = recognize god as 'living force in all life forms'.
C) Sankya-maya=recognize god as 'thinking, willing, and feeling'.
D) vigyana-maya= 'mind and ego seen different from the soul'.
E) ananda-maya= 'all-blissful nature' Via prema-bhakti-seva. (loving devotional service to Krishna

III) Bhagavan Realization, God as he is reveal in the Vedas of India—(krsnas tu bhagavan svayam . . . )

Remember: The "3 Gunas" = 'sattva, raja, & tamas' = respectively, the “Qualities of Creation, Maintenance, & Desolution”---the “3 material principle forces” that propel the aggregate material elements into flux—[this may be paralleled to the "ying and yang principles of Duality as expounded in Taoist and Buddhist metaphysics"; the difference being that there is the third/middle principle of Duality per Vedic metaphysics. This third principle parallels the small black and white dots found in the classic Chinese symbol of ‘ying & yang’.]
The Vedas say that all ‘Actions’ are always affected by one of the “three modes” vying for, and achieving dominance over the other two ‘modes’ during their innate interplay with all material elements and in all stratums of material affairs.
Ed.note: Thus, the source of Murphy’s Law, Chaos theory, Bad luck, Irony.

Remember: The Modes (‘3 Gunas’) and their attributes (from Bhagavad-gita)

Remember: 4 defects “flaws of conditioned soul= mistakes; illusioned; cheating; imperfect senses”

From my post:
http://www.interfaith.org/forum/provocative-hindu-topics-for-westerners-14017.html

 

[Lunitik]

Time is not eternal, my friend.

Time is relative, thus cannot be eternal.

This is why eternity can be experienced in a single second...

And this only the Bhagavan can realize directly.

Yet, even in your normal life it can be noticed, for when you are having fun, time will race by, yet when you are not it seems to stand still. Nothing that is subject to change can be eternal.

Only that which watches the change is.

 

[Lunitik]

God-realization is the realization that you cannot be different to God, this is all I go on saying, and it is all the Bhagavad Gita, the Upanishads, and all the Vedas have expressed. It is the ultimate maya - illusion - that the case is otherwise.

It is the same Buddha expressed through anatta and proclaimed as Dharmakaya.

It is why Muhammad is recorded as saying 'nothing exists save Allah'.

It is why the Torah proclaims 'know ye not that ye are elohim?'

It is why Jesus says 'I and my father are one'.

Need I continue?

This is the only place interfaith can happen, and yet it is neither inter nor faith, for all realize they are truly only one in essence expressing diversely.

 

[Lunitik]

All I speak is to help you find this truth.

 

[Princely]

The One who comes from above is above all; He who is of the world belongs to the world and speaks in a worldly way. The One who comes from heaven is above all. He testifies to what he has seen and heard, yet no one accepts his testimony. Whoever accepts his testimony certifies that God is truthful. The One whom is sent by God, He speaks the words of God. His gift of the spirit is not rationed. The Father loves the Son and has given everything over to him. [/I]Whoever believes in the Son possesses eternal life; whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but must endure the wrath of God.

The Lord and I are One. I come from above. Whoever rejects me, rejects the One who sent me.Yet I did not come on my own, the One who is true sent me, Him you do not know.
I know him, because I come from him, he’s the One who sent me.Whoever believes in me believes not only in me but also in the One who sent me, and whoever sees me sees the one who sent me.
I came into the world as light, so that everyone who believes in me might not remain in darkness.

I do not speak on my own, but the Lord who sent me commanded me what to say and how to speak, and since I know that his commandment means eternal life what I say is spoken just as He instructed me."

I do nothing on my own,I judge as I hear and my judgment is just because I am not seeking my own will but the will of the Lord who sent me.

I do nothing on my own, I only say what the Lord has taught me for the One who sent me is with me He has not deserted me because I always do what pleases him.

 

[Lunitik]

The One who comes from above is above all; He who is of the world belongs to the world and speaks in a worldly way.]

Do you understand why this statement is said in a worldly way? To those who know, this statement will look extremely ironic...

It is because comparison is made, it shows ego is still there.

Also, this is a common misconception, avatar in Hinduism also means 'descended' and infers the same - that God has come down to be among man. What is above and below in oneness?

You must call into question his understanding of oneness...

Of course, to the worldly mind, it looks perfectly fine, you will see nothing wrong with it, but this is just the first sentence. Would you like me to continue? There are many flaws in this quote.

 

[Princely]

Do you understand why this statement is said in a worldly way? To those who know, this statement will look extremely ironic...

It is because comparison is made, it shows ego is still there.

Also, this is a common misconception, avatar in Hinduism also means 'descended' and infers the same - that God has come down to be among man. What is above and below in oneness?

You must call into question his understanding of oneness...

Of course, to the worldly mind, it looks perfectly fine, you will see nothing wrong with it, but this is just the first sentence. Would you like me to continue? There are many flaws in this quote.

There are no flaws, the only flaw is your misunderstanding.

I can see you do not have the love of God in your heart because you refuse to do what is right and reject the One whom the Lord has sent.

Forgive Him Father for He knows not what he does.

 

[Lunitik]

There are no flaws, the only flaw is your misunderstanding.

I can see you do not have the love of God in your heart because you refuse to do what is right and reject the One whom the Lord has sent.

Forgive Him Father for He knows not what he does.

The father speaks these words through me that you might realize John was not sent by him. God is not in this heart, for this is division between container and contents, how can any container be greater than God? It is God that is container and contents, there is nothing besides Him.

You ask God to forgive God, yet you know it not. These words are your calling: find out that God is also the one which has caused you to look here, nay, He is the very one looking through your eyes and smiling at these words, go towards that place which smiles, look on the face from whence it came.

Know that it is the ego which chooses, even the ego which chooses the path towards its own crucifixion. Eventually, you must put this ego on the cross, mercilessly pierce its chest but do not weep at its death. It is the Lord your God who rises in him then, but you will not die, you will not commit your soul. You have not comprehended rebirth, for how can the new be born alongside the old? You have made religion the crutch for the ego, and it delights because it is a way for it to live forever.

Eternal life is not for the ego, eternal life is only through God, the one, the only, the whole.

 

[donnann]

The father speaks these words through me that you might realize John was not sent by him. God is not in this heart, for this is division between container and contents, how can any container be greater than God? It is God that is container and contents, there is nothing besides Him.

You ask God to forgive God, yet you know it not. These words are your calling: find out that God is also the one which has caused you to look here, nay, He is the very one looking through your eyes and smiling at these words, go towards that place which smiles, look on the face from whence it came.

Know that it is the ego which chooses, even the ego which chooses the path towards its own crucifixion. Eventually, you must put this ego on the cross, mercilessly pierce its chest but do not weep at its death. It is the Lord your God who rises in him then, but you will not die, you will not commit your soul. You have not comprehended rebirth, for how can the new be born alongside the old? You have made religion the crutch for the ego, and it delights because it is a way for it to live forever.

Eternal life is not for the ego, eternal life is only through God, the one, the only, the whole.

John baptized with water meaning soul essence. Jesus baptizes by spirit. The crystal body is the highest baptism and is the element that is the combination of all three spirit soul and body in its purest highest form , the smallest unbreakable elements. Baptism by this element of all elements makes it all one and a crystal being. Its the highest attainment. Higher than what jesus was talking about.

 

[donnann]

John baptized with water meaning soul essence. Jesus baptizes by spirit. The crystal body is the highest baptism and is the element that is the combination of all three spirit soul and body in its purest highest form , the smallest unbreakable elements. Baptism by this element of all elements makes it all one and a crystal being. Its the highest attainment. Higher than what jesus was talking about.

Sorry its actually 4 : White spirit, Soul, Body, Black spirit=at the smallest elements the unbreakable unchangeable element. The element from where all elements came from. Union of this makes you a crystal being. You cannot go any higher than this.
This is an infinite being. Of course you need your opposite as well.

 

[donnann]

Sorry its actually 4 : White spirit, Soul, Body, Black spirit=at the smallest elements the unbreakable unchangeable element. The element from where all elements came from. Union of this makes you a crystal being. You cannot go any higher than this.
This is an infinite being. Of course you need your opposite as well.

SACRED Mayan Crystal Skull