In pursuit of the mystical

[Thomas]

In the Christian mystical traditions, the soul meets God in a cloud of unknowing, a divine darkness of ignorance, a light so radiant, and so on...

Mysticism in the modern era however, would seem to regard mystical experience as the aim, the point and the purpose of the mystical life.

As ever, the mystical pursuit has been commodified and quantified for a consumer-oriented audience, in pursuit of the next fad or fancy, with books promoting this discipline and that as methods of spiritual realisation and the path to mystical experience.

The question is: why mystical experience at all?

Assuming that the founders of the Great Traditions bequeathed us a 'way', where does mystical experience fit in?

My suggestion is ... nowhere.

I am inclined to think that 'the mystical experience' is simply the by-product of an over-wrought imagination or, at best, it's the reaction of the physical faculty to the overspill of the soul, as it were ... Whilst seemingly a divine affirmation that 'you're on the right path', the experience can often stop one in one's tracks, or send one off in completely the wrong direction.

Careful examination of so-called mystical texts point to something else — certainly not to an experience, but rather its reverse, to non-experience.

I believe the great and insightful tracts, such as the works of Dionysius, of Augustine and Aquinas, of Benedict and Bonaventure, The Cloud of Unknowing, The Imitation of Christ, the sermons of Meister Eckhart, John of the Cross, Julian of Norwich ... all of them are, at core, anti-experiential.

The Traditions know this, of course ... Buddhism tells the student to ignore all phenomena, Christianity (RC and O, at least) does exactly the same, the famous adage being, 'if God really has a message, you're not going to be able to avoid it'.

But the fact remains that the pursuit of a mystical experience was probably given a big boost by the emergence of 'Spiritualism' as something distinct from religion, a century or so ago ...

... of course the founders of the esoteric schools of early, middle and late antiquity, all claimed this order of 'experience', but then they have to ...

I wonder how many would find the mystical life so enticing if they were told, 'It'll take every ounce of your determination because, in the end, you'll experience nothing. Nada. Not a sausage. And that's the way it should be.'

Every life is mystical. Your heartbeat, your next breath, is a mystical experience.

It is not the case that God has made himself 'especially present' to certain peoples at certain times (although there is evidence of certain orders of experiential event given to one for the benefit of the community) — God is present to all, all the time.

 

[wil]

Me thinks Thomas Jefferson followed this line of thinking when he removed the miracles from his translation of the Bible....

The mystical experience...the miracle is what sets one apart from another...what makes others sit up and listen, what makes your story compelling and retold around the campfire...

While it is the mystical magical miracle that keeps the story going...it is the underlying moral, parable, truth, metaphysics, metaphor that has the value for current and future generations...

 

[donnann]

Me thinks Thomas Jefferson followed this line of thinking when he removed the miracles from his translation of the Bible....

The mystical experience...the miracle is what sets one apart from another...what makes others sit up and listen, what makes your story compelling and retold around the campfire...

While it is the mystical magical miracle that keeps the story going...it is the underlying moral, parable, truth, metaphysics, metaphor that has the value for current and future generations...

I couldnt agree more. Well said! You have in my opinion a good insight.

 

[Paladin]

In the Christian mystical traditions, the soul meets God in a cloud of unknowing, a divine darkness of ignorance, a light so radiant, and so on...

Mysticism in the modern era however, would seem to regard mystical experience as the aim, the point and the purpose of the mystical life.

As ever, the mystical pursuit has been commodified and quantified for a consumer-oriented audience, in pursuit of the next fad or fancy, with books promoting this discipline and that as methods of spiritual realisation and the path to mystical experience.

The question is: why mystical experience at all?

Assuming that the founders of the Great Traditions bequeathed us a 'way', where does mystical experience fit in?

My suggestion is ... nowhere.

I am inclined to think that 'the mystical experience' is simply the by-product of an over-wrought imagination or, at best, it's the reaction of the physical faculty to the overspill of the soul, as it were ... Whilst seemingly a divine affirmation that 'you're on the right path', the experience can often stop one in one's tracks, or send one off in completely the wrong direction.

Careful examination of so-called mystical texts point to something else — certainly not to an experience, but rather its reverse, to non-experience.

I believe the great and insightful tracts, such as the works of Dionysius, of Augustine and Aquinas, of Benedict and Bonaventure, The Cloud of Unknowing, The Imitation of Christ, the sermons of Meister Eckhart, John of the Cross, Julian of Norwich ... all of them are, at core, anti-experiential.

The Traditions know this, of course ... Buddhism tells the student to ignore all phenomena, Christianity (RC and O, at least) does exactly the same, the famous adage being, 'if God really has a message, you're not going to be able to avoid it'.

But the fact remains that the pursuit of a mystical experience was probably given a big boost by the emergence of 'Spiritualism' as something distinct from religion, a century or so ago ...

... of course the founders of the esoteric schools of early, middle and late antiquity, all claimed this order of 'experience', but then they have to ...

I wonder how many would find the mystical life so enticing if they were told, 'It'll take every ounce of your determination because, in the end, you'll experience nothing. Nada. Not a sausage. And that's the way it should be.'

Every life is mystical. Your heartbeat, your next breath, is a mystical experience.

It is not the case that God has made himself 'especially present' to certain peoples at certain times (although there is evidence of certain orders of experiential event given to one for the benefit of the community) — God is present to all, all the time.

Agreed. I might be making a moot point here, but remember the Buddha's teaching on self and non-self? In this regard I wonder if both experience and non-experience may fall into the same realm, as it were. In America, religion is eschewed because of the rather convoluted and extreme authoritarian version of Christianity adopted by conservative factions. Indeed, this new form of Christianity seems to have a contextual morality loosely based on utilitarianism devoid of the humanity envisioned by Bentham or Mill.
This is an unfortunate state of affairs, because the religion holds the key to self-discipline and a desire to face the shadow side of our being. The danger, according to Epstein (2007), is that spiritual practices devoid of the religious aspect only reinforces the ideal ego rather than facing it with bare attention.

 

[donnann]

Agreed. I might be making a moot point here, but remember the Buddha's teaching on self and non-self? In this regard I wonder if both experience and non-experience may fall into the same realm, as it were. In America, religion is eschewed because of the rather convoluted and extreme authoritarian version of Christianity adopted by conservative factions. Indeed, this new form of Christianity seems to have a contextual morality loosely based on utilitarianism devoid of the humanity envisioned by Bentham or Mill.
This is an unfortunate state of affairs, because the religion holds the key to self-discipline and a desire to face the shadow side of our being. The danger, according to Epstein (2007), is that spiritual practices devoid of the religious aspect only reinforces the ideal ego rather than facing it with bare attention.

this country is very unique. It is a place where all religons are practiced and made up of people from all different cultures. I do not find fault with christianity because it does teach good moral values. It tells you to show love compassion kindness ect. You can also find this in all the other religions as well. I think Jesus is a good example of what god does and what god doesnt do. Humanity progresses with knowledge. do you reason scripture based on what you experience in this world to mean that? Its the holy language the divine language to reason scripture with a divine mind. You have to look at something god did or said and say hey I know god wouldnt kill anyone so what does he mean by that and what did he really do. GOD is really love

 

[Paladin]

this country is very unique. It is a place where all religons are practiced and made up of people from all different cultures. I do not find fault with christianity because it does teach good moral values. It tells you to show love compassion kindness ect. You can also find this in all the other religions as well. I think Jesus is a good example of what god does and what god doesnt do. Humanity progresses with knowledge. do you reason scripture based on what you experience in this world to mean that? Its the holy language the divine language to reason scripture with a divine mind. You have to look at something god did or said and say hey I know god wouldnt kill anyone so what does he mean by that and what did he really do. GOD is really love

I don't think we are having the same conversation here. Did you perceive that my post was a condemnation of Christianity or religion as a whole?

 

[donnann]

I don't think we are having the same conversation here. Did you perceive that my post was a condemnation of Christianity or religion as a whole?

I guess I got the wrong idea....sorry...miscommunication

 

[radarmark]

Some Christianity. Never forget that Timothy McVea, the Idaho Nazi-Christians, and Project Rescue (who all killed in the name of "Jesus") were the kind of folk Paladin is speaking about. Let alone slavery, the repression of women, the idiocy of "creation science", lynching, cross-burning, Qu'ran burning, and other kinds of violence.

G!d is love... but most Christians (IMHO) do not share that belief.

Oh, and talk to the Native American Church or the Mosques in the South (or near Ground Zero) about "freedom of religion".

 

[donnann]

Some Christianity. Never forget that Timothy McVea, the Idaho Nazi-Christians, and Project Rescue (who all killed in the name of "Jesus") were the kind of folk Paladin is speaking about. Let alone slavery, the repression of women, the idiocy of "creation science", lynching, cross-burning, Qu'ran burning, and other kinds of violence.

G!d is love... but most Christians (IMHO) do not share that belief.

Oh, and talk to the Native American Church or the Mosques in the South (or near Ground Zero) about "freedom of religion".

those people were not really christians . the basis for christian belief is that god is love and he was represented in the person of jesus christ.

 

[radarmark]

You may say so... but I find most Evangelicals or Fundamentalists of the same ilk.

 

[donnann]

You may say so... but I find most Evangelicals or Fundamentalists of the same ilk.

Well being brought up when I was very small as christian and later on as catholic I can tell you. They basic concepts they got across was that god is love. That he is represented in the person of jesus christ who I may say is a good example. And to show kindness, forgiveness , understanding and caring for others. That you should treat other people the way you want to be treated. This is mainstream Christianity and main stream Catholicism based on personal experience.

 

[BrotherMichaelSky]

The question is: why mystical experience at all?

Well Thomas, been a while. Howzit?

For some, and I believe the number is smaller than I once did, it is not a choice. When those who have no choice but to experience what some would term "mystical experiences" come into contact with those who would desire to, misunderstandings can happen, and result in folks believing that imagination and intuition play a much greater role in the experience than they indeed do.

To be clear, I think mystical experiences of a certain nature are inescapable by the human. However it is only when they near the appropriate signature vibration that they go seeking and questioning them. Usually the seeker is not yet of the appropriate understanding (which translates to vibration in a way I CAN relate to you) to actually HAVE the experience; so they are convinced it is impossible before a valid attempt can be made.

Mystical experiences therefore, are the result of the effort of many lifetimes, where an inclination to remember has developed. They are very rarely indeed developed in one lifetime. That is an accomplishment on the nature of Jesus - or Our Christ Michael. Not to be expected of all. But His example shows it is INDEED possible.

When a multi-dimensional being discovers it's true nature - a "mystical experience" is the least of your joys...

 

[radarmark]

"But the fact remains that the pursuit of a mystical experience was probably given a big boost by the emergence of 'Spiritualism' as something distinct from religion, a century or so ago ...

... of course the founders of the esoteric schools of early, middle and late antiquity, all claimed this order of 'experience', but then they have to ...

I wonder how many would find the mystical life so enticing if they were told, 'It'll take every ounce of your determination because, in the end, you'll experience nothing. Nada. Not a sausage. And that's the way it should be.'

Every life is mystical. Your heartbeat, your next breath, is a mystical experience.

It is not the case that God has made himself 'especially present' to certain peoples at certain times (although there is evidence of certain orders of experiential event given to one for the benefit of the community) — God is present to all, all the time."

Yes, the problem was (I beleive) that Modernism since at least Descartes has broken the link to the mystical experience. The idea of Spiritualism (IMHO) wasd to re-connect; however, being trapped inside Modernism the actuality of Spiritualism was something very different.

Gimme that old time religion of the rishis, Mahavir, Gautama, Lao-tze, the Prophets, Christ Jesus, Muhammed, George Fox, and Guru Granth Sahib (among many).

 

[Thomas]

Me thinks Thomas Jefferson followed this line of thinking when he removed the miracles from his translation of the Bible....

I think you've got your wires crossed here. I'm not talking about miracles, but the modern infatuation with 'mystical experience'. Miracles are something else altogether.

All I'm saying is there's a misplaced emphasis on 'mystical' for one, and 'experience' for another.

what sets one apart from another...what makes others sit up and listen, what makes your story compelling and retold around the campfire...

D'you think so?

I'm not so sure. The RC makes a big deal about miracles, as it does the self-sacrifice of the martyrs, but as I recall, the statistics would indicate that neither have a significant impact on recruitment. I'm sure you get a rush after a publicised event, but then I'm sure the numbers fall away ... I think the essential message carries the most weight.

Love is what makes the Christian story compelling. It was that teaching which triggered an almost epidemic expansion of Christianity in the first centuries, not the example of the martyrs.

Christianity, perhaps the most profound Mystery Religion, is paradoxically anti-mystical. It is anti-mystical in that it is founded on agape and not eros (eros is all about being 'carried away' or 'possessed' or 'taken up'). Its primary sacraments are societal: the washing to make anew, the communal meal.

The actual 'mystical' element of the Sacraments transcends the senses.

 

[Thomas]

Agreed. I might be making a moot point here, but remember the Buddha's teaching on self and non-self? In this regard I wonder if both experience and non-experience may fall into the same realm, as it were.

I can't say, not being au fait with the teaching — but I do recall the instructions when I was learning meditation at the hands of Buddhists: ignore all and any experiential phenomena, it's just a trick of the ego. Christianity is the same, hence we take forever to make our mind up about miracles.

In America, religion is eschewed because of the rather convoluted and extreme authoritarian version of Christianity adopted by conservative factions. Indeed, this new form of Christianity seems to have a contextual morality loosely based on utilitarianism devoid of the humanity envisioned by Bentham or Mill.

I agree (I think). Christianity seems to have become a sentimental humanism, with a Jesus badge.

This is an unfortunate state of affairs, because the religion holds the key to self-discipline and a desire to face the shadow side of our being. The danger, according to Epstein (2007), is that spiritual practices devoid of the religious aspect only reinforces the ideal ego rather than facing it with bare attention.

Couldn't agree more.

 

[Thomas]

For some, and I believe the number is smaller than I once did, it is not a choice.

For the authentic seeker, it's not even on the agenda.

For the sake of clarity —
I'm not denying the 'mystical' — I'm Catholic, how can I, ours is a Mystery religion — it's the pursuit of so-called 'mystical experience' I'm suggesting is a flawed pursuit.

"I gave you milk to drink, not meat; for you were not able as yet. But neither indeed are you now able; for you are yet carnal" 1 Corinthians 3:2.

"For whereas for the time you ought to be masters, you have need to be taught again what are the first elements of the words of God: and you are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat." Hebrews 5:12

"For every one that is a partaker of milk, is unskillful in the word of justice: for he is a little child." Hebrews 5:13

I'm saying 'mystical experience' is the quivalent of milk. It's given to build up the bones of faith, but once you've matured, then it's 'strong meat' — which is not experiential. It's quite the reverse, hence "The Cloud of Unknowing" or "The Dark Night of the Soul" — they are, if you like, negative experiences, and are a far tougher test of faith, and a harder path.

When those who have no choice but to experience what some would term "mystical experiences" ...

Then they are probably suffering a form of aphasia.

It's then a case of determining whether the experience was of self-manufacture, or whether it's a 'reaction' to a process of the soul that spills over into the faculty.

To be clear, I think mystical experiences of a certain nature are inescapable by the human.

Again, as a Catholic, I can hardly say otherwise.

I could say 'the simple act of being is a mystical experience' and it is, but it sounds like a hip soundbite from "The Little Book of Enlightenment", so I try to avoid such clichés.

The Divine is Immanently Present to all, all the time. It's a case of whether one needs proof.

However it is only when they near the appropriate signature vibration ...

Well I think you're into a technical language/construct that has more unfortunate aspects than it has beneficial ones. In my experience I've found that overly-technical complex explanations are papering over the gaps.

... that they go seeking and questioning them. Usually the seeker is not yet of the appropriate understanding (which translates to vibration in a way I CAN relate to you) to actually HAVE the experience; so they are convinced it is impossible before a valid attempt can be made...

This is the kind of thing I used to tell myself and my students to convince ourselves we belonged to an esoteric, informed elite.

Mystical experiences therefore, are the result of the effort of many lifetimes...

Good grief, really? You guys make something so simple, such hard work!

 

[Paladin]

Then they are probably suffering a form of aphasia.

It's then a case of determining whether the experience was of self-manufacture, or whether it's a 'reaction' to a process of the soul that spills over into the faculty

.

Thomas,

Not sure about your meaning here. Aphasia is the result of an insult to the brain or malfunction of those areas that control language. There are other conditions in the brain that can cause hallucinations in people who are quite lucid. Perhaps you remember Oliver Sacks? He is the author of "The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat" and other marvelous books about hallucinations and the brain.
Also see Ramachandran's work as well, it's fascinating stuff and I think supports your ideas.

 

[Thomas]

Aphasia is the result of an insult to the brain or malfunction of those areas that control language.

Oooh, I didn't mean as severe as that.

I think Radarmark touched on it — there's an order of experience we grok, and there's experience we quantify, classify and qualify ... take that too far and you've squeezed the life out of the experience, we contain it.

The mystical transport is when the essence breaks through. When you grok it without intermediation. (Grok. What a ridiculous word!)

The art, I suppose, is not to contain (impossible, we'd not be able to function), because by doing that were living in the past, albeit a nanosecond behind the moment, if we're on the ball.

All these aphorisms is a bit like telling a newbie surfer: "Just climb upon the board, and don't fall off," or Our Lord's basic message, "Just get along. be nice to each other." Easy said.

You can't learn to ride a bike or surf the wave by reading a book ... in my experience, theology starts with a prayer, then the examination of a text, a commentary from a better theologian than me, which drives me into the sacred text, in which I find sustenance and inspiration (say a little prayer: thank you very much), and then on you go again.

It helps to keep the 'help' in mind, the Holy Spirit, St Thomas (patron of theology). The Blessed Virgin. St Maximus. At times i can feel Him, or him, looking over my shoulder, a finger pointing, "there, you muppet, there!" (She works differently: 'Look at my son'). Sentimentlism? Probably. A fair dollop, anyway. I once deconstructed a Dido song (Here With Me) as a Platonic hymn. A good friend and fellow traveler looked at me like I was out of my mind.

I've picked my way ... or, as I like to say, my way picked me. Jean Borella, an awesome french theologian, put it nicely. When he read the Fathers, they spoke in a language he already knew. "Their blood runs in my veins." That's why I'm so big on tradition. I am, in my own small way, continuing the unfolding of a story.

Perhaps you remember Oliver Sacks? He is the author of "The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat" and other marvelous books about hallucinations and the brain.

I only know that one. A great book!

Also see Ramachandran's work as well, it's fascinating stuff and I think supports your ideas.

He's on my list! I'm a fan of The Master and His Emissary: The Divided Brain and the Making of the Western World by Iain McGilchrist, another noted neurologist, although I think they differ on their conclusions. But hey, there's room enough!

 

[donnann]

Oooh, I didn't mean as severe as that.

I think Radarmark touched on it — there's an order of experience we grok, and there's experience we quantify, classify and qualify ... take that too far and you've squeezed the life out of the experience, we contain it.

The mystical transport is when the essence breaks through. When you grok it without intermediation. (Grok. What a ridiculous word!)

The art, I suppose, is not to contain (impossible, we'd not be able to function), because by doing that were living in the past, albeit a nanosecond behind the moment, if we're on the ball.

All these aphorisms is a bit like telling a newbie surfer: "Just climb upon the board, and don't fall off," or Our Lord's basic message, "Just get along. be nice to each other." Easy said.

You can't learn to ride a bike or surf the wave by reading a book ... in my experience, theology starts with a prayer, then the examination of a text, a commentary from a better theologian than me, which drives me into the sacred text, in which I find sustenance and inspiration (say a little prayer: thank you very much), and then on you go again.

It helps to keep the 'help' in mind, the Holy Spirit, St Thomas (patron of theology). The Blessed Virgin. St Maximus. At times i can feel Him, or him, looking over my shoulder, a finger pointing, "there, you muppet, there!" (She works differently: 'Look at my son'). Sentimentlism? Probably. A fair dollop, anyway. I once deconstructed a Dido song (Here With Me) as a Platonic hymn. A good friend and fellow traveler looked at me like I was out of my mind.

I've picked my way ... or, as I like to say, my way picked me. Jean Borella, an awesome french theologian, put it nicely. When he read the Fathers, they spoke in a language he already knew. "Their blood runs in my veins." That's why I'm so big on tradition. I am, in my own small way, continuing the unfolding of a story.


I only know that one. A great book!


He's on my list! I'm a fan of The Master and His Emissary: The Divided Brain and the Making of the Western World by Iain McGilchrist, another noted neurologist, although I think they differ on their conclusions. But hey, there's room enough!

Thomas as a catholic I hope you know that miracles are not a hallucination. Miracles are done in front of others who are witnesses to the miracles. Revelations is a revealing of something. This is noted in catholic doctrines and beliefs. Jesus didnt do things in secret. did he and the miracles like the holy spirit ect were seen by others.

 

[BrotherMichaelSky]

For the authentic seeker, it's not even on the agenda.

For the sake of clarity —
I'm not denying the 'mystical' — I'm Catholic, how can I, ours is a Mystery religion — it's the pursuit of so-called 'mystical experience' I'm suggesting is a flawed pursuit.

"I gave you milk to drink, not meat; for you were not able as yet. But neither indeed are you now able; for you are yet carnal" 1 Corinthians 3:2.

"For whereas for the time you ought to be masters, you have need to be taught again what are the first elements of the words of God: and you are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat." Hebrews 5:12

"For every one that is a partaker of milk, is unskillful in the word of justice: for he is a little child." Hebrews 5:13

I'm saying 'mystical experience' is the quivalent of milk. It's given to build up the bones of faith, but once you've matured, then it's 'strong meat' — which is not experiential. It's quite the reverse, hence "The Cloud of Unknowing" or "The Dark Night of the Soul" — they are, if you like, negative experiences, and are a far tougher test of faith, and a harder path.


Then they are probably suffering a form of aphasia.

It's then a case of determining whether the experience was of self-manufacture, or whether it's a 'reaction' to a process of the soul that spills over into the faculty.


Again, as a Catholic, I can hardly say otherwise.

I could say 'the simple act of being is a mystical experience' and it is, but it sounds like a hip soundbite from "The Little Book of Enlightenment", so I try to avoid such clichés.

The Divine is Immanently Present to all, all the time. It's a case of whether one needs proof.


Well I think you're into a technical language/construct that has more unfortunate aspects than it has beneficial ones. In my experience I've found that overly-technical complex explanations are papering over the gaps.


This is the kind of thing I used to tell myself and my students to convince ourselves we belonged to an esoteric, informed elite.


Good grief, really? You guys make something so simple, such hard work!

Obviously you have your reasons for being here and sharing your words, even if it is personal.

You are strongly entrenched in a religion which requires your belief and participation, for something which you cannot see, and by your own words experience, and you tell me I am having problems with brain chemistry?

Simple truth is that there is a purpose to incarnating in the physical, and it has very little to do with being saved by another. Just my perspective.

My experiences are, quite obviously to me, going to be unique. They are also however, typical in more way than one.

I believe with your state of mind, religion is more than appropriate for you. I however, have released my needs and fears concerning what will happen to me upon death, and realize that my own actions and desires will affect me in a very direct way. I have no need to reach for something I cannot see and trust what someone else tells me about the Truth. I can experience that for myself, as well as the rest of the folks reading this. They just don't realize it.

Which of course brings me to what I am doing here: sharing something that could be potentially valuable for the right folks - from my own experience.

One who was previously in the habit of tricking seekers could indeed have considerable problems verifying what I am saying: but that is consequences of actions, not punishment.

Considering the concepts I have introduced, for you to feel you have heard anything near a thorough explanation is unrealistic. If you think what I shared was complex, it's because you do not understand it in full yet; it's really very simply understood, though I have very little idea of the mechanics of much, I just figure out what I can and when. It is not, however, difficult to understand.