What I believe.....

[Aupmanyav]

He created the laws that govern how existence works, but doesn't have to abide by those laws, being Supreme and all.

Miracles would definitely fall under this concept. In that they bend the rules by how things work in the physical universe.

Yes, God (or Gods and Goddesses) are supposed to be beyond physical laws (absolutely in Abrahamic religions, where they can order complete destruction of tribes not worshiping them; and to a lesser extent in Hinduism and Buddhism, where they have to abide by the laws of 'dharma' or face punishment, 'dharma' being prior to (eternal - Sanatana) and more important that Gods and Goddesses).

"According to Mahabharata, the Kurukshetra war resulted in the death of all 100 sons of Gandhari. On the night before Duryodhana's death, Lord Krishna visited Gandhari to offer his condolences. Gandhari felt that Krishna knowingly did not put an end to the war (after all, he was God and knew what was to happen), and in a fit of rage and sorrow, Gandhari cursed that Krishna, along with everyone else from yadu dynasty, would perish after 36 years. Krishna himself knew and wanted this to happen as he felt that the Yadavas had become very haughty and arrogant (adharmi), so he ended Gandhari's speech by saying "tathastu" (so be it).

After 36 years passed, a fight broke out between the Yadavas, at a festival, who killed each other (under influence of liquor). Krishna retired into the forest and started meditating under a tree. The Mahabharata also narrates the story of a hunter who kills Krishna. The hunter Jara (lit. - old age), mistook Krishna's partly visible left foot for that of a deer, and shot an arrow, wounding and killing him mortally. After he realised the mistake (Jara came to ask for Krishna's forgivenness), Krishna told Jara, "O Jara, you were Vaali (a monkey king) in your previous birth, killed by myself (in an unfair contest) as Rama in Tretayuga. Here you had a chance to even it and since all acts in this world are done as desired by me, you need not worry for this". Krishna's soul then ascended to heaven, while his mortal body was cremated by Arjuna." (passages in brackets added by aup for clarification) Krishna - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So, both, Lord Rama and Lord Krishna had to suffer the result of their actions. In Hinduism, an unfair act cannot go unpunished, even if done or stage-managed by Gods.

But are there any evidenced miracles or supernatural events?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Well, wars, atrocities, injustices, slavery, murders, rapes, pedophilia are functions of the will of individual mean and women, our free will to do good or bad. Why is g!d responsible for that?Earthquakes, volcanoes, comets, super-novae are functions of the world as created. Could it work as well as it does without them? The answer to one (the role of super-novae in creating all elements heaver than iron) is it would be impossible for life to exist without it.

An omniscient God carries the responsibility for peoples' free will as well as that of natural catastrophes. Why did not God create the world without black-holes and super-novae? Could he not do that?

 

[Aupmanyav]

And physical universe? This is too limiting, one has physical, emotional, mental, and spiritual experiences… so the universe is not just physical (unless you believe all emotions and thoughts and visions are functions of what we ate for dinner last night).

According to Hinduism, that is correct.

"From purity of food follows the purity of the internal organ"
-Chhandogya Upanishad, Vii.26.2

"Mind is surely made of food, vital force is made of water,and speech is made of fire"-
-Chhandogya Upanishad VI.6.5

"Of curd when it is churned, that which is its subtle part rises upward. That becomes clarified butter. In this very way, of food when it is eaten, that which is the subtle part, that rises upward, and that becomes mind"
-Chhandogya Upanishad, Vi.6.1 & 2

‘When nourishment is pure, reflection and higher understanding are pure, memory becomes strong. When memory becomes strong, there is release from all the knots of the heart.’
-Chhandogya Upanishad, I. vii.

More at Food

 

[carrots]

So do we mean that all wars, all atrocities, all injustices, all slavery, all murders, all rapes, all pedophilia, all earthquakes, all volcanic eruptions, all tsunami, all typhoons, all floods, and all famines, all diseases, and all other mishaps, all through the history, are according to this being's plan? What a grand plan! Must be for some grand purpose, I suppose? Do we worship a God or Satan (though there is no Satan just like there is no God)? I would hate to be a son or messenger of such a God if he existed.

we are responsible for most of what you say and nature is responsible for the other, god having a plan for us does not mean we have no freewill or that everything is already planned it means that as we establish a relationship with him a personal plan from him unfolds.

 

[carrots]

carrots, just realize most of those who post here do not share your viewpoint. Believe all you want in "name", "personality", "plan" are things which we just miss.

its ok that you miss them and don't share my viewpoint but if its ok I will share what I have learned anyway

 

[radarmark]

All that stuff from what I ate last night? Hmmmm. You may be onto something there. It would explain a great deal.

Seriously (for just a minute) though, my response on the physical universe was just in reference to that part of the discussion. Emotional, mental and spiritual experiences, along with physical, are all important in their totality when attempting to LIVE rather than just going from day to day.

Yes we move along different paths. To my way of thinking that is the only way it can be. For every person (restricting the discussion just to humans for now) there is a path. No one else can walk that path, though we can sometimes share parts of the path with others along the way.

But the entire path for one is never the same for another. I perceive that as both a gift and a curse. We are locked within our perceptions and the best we can do is try to share with others what our own personal version of the path means.

Very good, GK. just remember, if you believe in only a physical universe (the material universe), one must try to explain the rest of it in terms of "physical reality" (whatever that is).

 

[radarmark]

An omniscient God carries the responsibility for peoples' free will as well as that of natural catastrophes. Why did not God create the world without black-holes and super-novae? Could he not do that?

They key is what you spoke of "an omniscient g!d". I reject that notion.

 

[radarmark]

According to Hinduism, that is correct.

"From purity of food follows the purity of the internal organ"
-Chhandogya Upanishad, Vii.26.2

"Mind is surely made of food, vital force is made of water,and speech is made of fire"-
-Chhandogya Upanishad VI.6.5

"Of curd when it is churned, that which is its subtle part rises upward. That becomes clarified butter. In this very way, of food when it is eaten, that which is the subtle part, that rises upward, and that becomes mind"
-Chhandogya Upanishad, Vi.6.1 & 2

‘When nourishment is pure, reflection and higher understanding are pure, memory becomes strong. When memory becomes strong, there is release from all the knots of the heart.’
-Chhandogya Upanishad, I. vii.

More at Food

Possibly, but I do not (nor do most human beings) experience that. Very good metaphysics, but I merely reject it.

 

[radarmark]

we are responsible for most of what you say and nature is responsible for the other, god having a plan for us does not mean we have no freewill or that everything is already planned it means that as we establish a relationship with him a personal plan from him unfolds.

I do not agree with you, why? “We” are not responsible for rapes are murder… the perp is. “Nature” is (IMHO) part of g!d, could have he/she done it better? I (as a physicist) do not think so… this is the best of all possible worlds. Those without volcanism or earthquakes or novae are not!

its ok that you miss them and don't share my viewpoint but if its ok I will share what I have learned anyway

Works for me. Just realize from a “hard core scientific view” we will differ.

 

[Gordian Knot]

The generic response as to why so many "bad" things happen is that humans have free will. That life is indeterministic. However, a contingent of physicists pursuing quantum mechanics have come to the conclusion that free will is an illusion. This conclusion seems to fly into the face of our everyday experiences for most of us, I think. But there is a solid set of scientific theory supporting the idea.

If humans live a deterministic (lack of free will) life, then there is a serious problem with the standard answer that religion has been supporting for the past few thousand years.

 

[Gordian Knot]

Aup, the subject of miracles has always been of particular fascination to me. And a frustration as well. All the really good miracles are far in our past. I started a thread elsewhere on the site that asked why didn't the prophets come today instead of the backwards world of 100 A.D. and earlier.

Moses parting the Red Sea live on television and the internet would be an impressive thing indeed. Millions could have seen it with their own eyes. Quite the show stopper for Abrahamic religions indeed!

Since that didn't happen, we can only go on the words of people loooong deceased, and with the added complication of possible straying of the story over time.

We don't get a lot of good miracles these days. Though we have to try and define our terms first. Just what qualifies as a miracle?

Good ol' Mr. Dictionary has this to say:

1: an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs.
2: an extremely outstanding or unusual event, thing, or accomplishment.
3 Christian Science: a divinely natural phenomenon experienced humanly as the fulfillment of spiritual law.

Well that is really no help at all as it requires an interpretation by people as to whether it was divine or not.

Modern day example. A plane full of people crashes, everyone dies, but a baby is found alive. Miraculous. Was it by divine intervention though? Or was it random chance? Everyone gets to make their own choice based on what they believe or do not believe.

Is there any way; any way at all to know which of the two possibilities is the real one? Not that I can see.

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

I think free will is too complicated for a yes or no answer. there is so much in the question that needs to be sorted out before anyone can understand the answer.

I stand by my previous answer as to why such a miracle wouldn't be that impressive today.

 

[Paladin]

The generic response as to why so many "bad" things happen is that humans have free will. That life is indeterministic. However, a contingent of physicists pursuing quantum mechanics have come to the conclusion that free will is an illusion. This conclusion seems to fly into the face of our everyday experiences for most of us, I think. But there is a solid set of scientific theory supporting the idea.

If humans live a deterministic (lack of free will) life, then there is a serious problem with the standard answer that religion has been supporting for the past few thousand years.

Hey GK,
You wouldn't happen to have the reference for that would you? I'm in the middle of a course on personality theory and that would make an interesting note.

 

[radarmark]

The generic response as to why so many "bad" things happen is that humans have free will. That life is indeterministic. However, a contingent of physicists pursuing quantum mechanics have come to the conclusion that free will is an illusion. This conclusion seems to fly into the face of our everyday experiences for most of us, I think. But there is a solid set of scientific theory supporting the idea.

If humans live a deterministic (lack of free will) life, then there is a serious problem with the standard answer that religion has been supporting for the past few thousand years.

Why does g!d have to be deterministic? Where did you get that idea? Quantum physics supports free will, why? Indeterminism. Determinism and fatalism are non-quantum ideas, so modern physics support the notion of “free will”.

Aup, the subject of miracles has always been of particular fascination to me. And a frustration as well. All the really good miracles are far in our past. I started a thread elsewhere on the site that asked why didn't the prophets come today instead of the backwards world of 100 A.D. and earlier.

Moses parting the Red Sea live on television and the internet would be an impressive thing indeed. Millions could have seen it with their own eyes. Quite the show stopper for Abrahamic religions indeed!

Since that didn't happen, we can only go on the words of people loooong deceased, and with the added complication of possible straying of the story over time.

Kinda-sorta depends on what you mean by “miracle” doesn’t it? Something that flies in the face of accepted reality? Try on Copernicus, or Galileo, or Newton, or Maxwell, or Einstein, or Bohr or Higgs.

Moses could have walked across a dry bed due to a freak or otherwise explainable windstorm. Nu?

Miracles do not have to big the big things you cite. The miracle of qualia (self-consciousness) or "ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny"or inter-subjective verification work for me as miracles.

We don't get a lot of good miracles these days. Though we have to try and define our terms first. Just what qualifies as a miracle?

Good ol' Mr. Dictionary has this to say:

1: an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs.
2: an extremely outstanding or unusual event, thing, or accomplishment.
3 Christian Science: a divinely natural phenomenon experienced humanly as the fulfillment of spiritual law.

Well that is really no help at all as it requires an interpretation by people as to whether it was divine or not.

Really? What does a dictionary have to say about human thought? Not much… what we thought a long time ago, perhaps. A dictionary only defines what most people mkena by a word. You have yout definition, I have mine.

Modern day example. A plane full of people crashes, everyone dies, but a baby is found alive. Miraculous. Was it by divine intervention though? Or was it random chance? Everyone gets to make their own choice based on what they believe or do not believe.

Is there any way; any way at all to know which of the two possibilities is the real one? Not that I can see.

You may think that… but you probably really believe in “the laws of the physical universe”, nu? Wind resistance, atmospheric anomalies, etc. Fine, a scientistic material solution may work for you. Some of us really do not buy that, that is all I am claiming.

Proof? Only one’s metaphysics…. Nothing in this world or the next.

 

[Gordian Knot]

Paladin, the contingent is not a group entity obviously. More a group of scientists who believe in the same or similar thing. To name one famous example, Stephen Hawking is not a big fan of free will. There are others and it would require some internet searching.

To show one of the better known examples though, here is something Hawking said:

Stephen Hawking on free will

“Do people have free will? If we have free will, where in the evolutionary tree did it develop? Do blue-green algae or bacteria have free will, or is their behavior automatic and within the realm of scientific law? Is it only multicelled organisms that have free will, or only mammals? We might think that a chimpanzee is exercising free will when it chooses to chomp on a banana, or a cat when it rips up your sofa, but what about the roundworm called Caenorhabditis elegans—a simple creature made of only 959 cells? It probably never thinks, “That was damn tasty bacteria I got to dine on back there,” yet it too has a definite preference in food and will either settle for an unattractive meal or go foraging for something better, depending on recent experience. Is that the exercise of free will?

Though we feel that we can choose what we do, our understanding of the molecular basis of biology shows that biological processes are governed by the laws of physics and chemistry and therefore are as determined as the orbits of the planets. Recent experiments in neuroscience support the view that it is our physical brain, following the known laws of science, that determines our actions, and not some agency that exists outside those laws. For example, a study of patients undergoing awake brain surgery found that by electrically stimulating the appropriate regions of the brain, one could create in the patient the desire to move the hand, arm, or foot, or to move the lips and talk. It is hard to imagine how free will can operate if our behavior is determined by physical law, so it seems that we are no more than biological machines and that free will is just an illusion."
— Stephen Hawking and Leonard Mlodinow, The Grand Design, Bantam Books, New York, 2010, p. 32.

 

[Paladin]

Thanks GK, I mistakenly thought you were referring to a specific article, thanks for the quote though, it is very helpful.

 

[radarmark]

Consciousness, quantum physics, and free will by D. Hodgson orHenry P. Stapp’s Quantum Mechanical Theories of Consciousness or Libet’s Volitional Brain. Henry P. Stapp’s Quantum Mechanical Theories of Consciousness or Libet’s Volitional Brain. A very good starting point is http://arxiv.org/pdf/1307.0611.pdf.

Sorry, GK, you are just incorrect!

 

[carrots]

We have freewill but it is very limited, we can choose how to act according to our conditioning but we must face the results of our actions. what sex we are, what species we are, what race, education, what social, political, religious conditioning according to time and place of birth determines so very much of our personality and viewpoint. Our freewill is there but it is limited.
We choose to seek answers to our questions on this forum and to debate with others, if something fits into our mindset we agree if not we may ignore or challenge or seek further clarification. sometimes our motives are genuine and sincere sometimes we just want to massage our egos.
we are free to think and do as we like but in light of our deep rooted conditioning it may appear like we have no freewill but we do have very limited freewill and how we choose to use that freewill has consequences and determines our nature.
The laws of karma give us a suitable body in which to enjoy that nature we have acquired but this human birth is very rare and carries great responsibility. We are responsible for the great injustices, wars, crimes, killing, hating and hurting others not god who has become a scapegoat for our inability to accept responsibility for our own actions. This planet is not a paradise and natural disasters are just part of nature. Blaming god is spiritually childlike. I choose to do good or evil with the freewill god has given me so I am to blame for my actions, whatever I choose that is my karma and the reactions will bind me in certain ways.
We are all bound tight in this great wheel of samsara, birth after birth and only those who have made it out can shed some light on our situation and help us return to the kingdom of god.

 

[Gordian Knot]

I am very willing to believe I am incorrect. I'm in kindergarten when it comes to this stuff. But are you saying that Hawking is incorrect as well? Cause if you are then I am more inclined to believe there are competing theories right now. Ergo, ipso facto, Columbo, Orio there is no correct or incorrect yet.

 

[radarmark]

Yes, Hawking (Great as he is) does not hold with the Copenhagen Interpretation or the possibility of Quantum Gravity. I differ (based on what a lot of others say about it, and what little I understand).