On What are your Religious Beliefs Based?

wil said:
Jesus said, I and the Father are one... not Paul. Jesus challenged the working on the sabbath, Jesus gave us a new commandment.

I know you are a Jew. Or rather I accept that you have said you are a Jew. What I asked is who is this we? You are the only Jew I know that argues that Christianity is false because Jesus was a Jew. I have met the Jews for Jesus crowd, and I have met Jews that claim Jesus never existed, or Jesus was a prophet. But I've never met one that is upset about Christianity co-opting Judaism... who is this 'we' you speak of?
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Jesus could have said "I and the Father are one." No big deal if he spoke as part of the People who was named God's son according to Exodus 4:22,23. "Israel is My son..." But according to the gospel writers, Jesus spoke as an individual son of God without a biological father on earth. That's the Greek way to describe the myth of the demigod, which is the son of a god with an earthly woman. Therefore, it was not Jesus speaking. He would not speak against his own Faith which was Judaism.

Now, with regards to his challenging the working on the Sabbath, I need the quote. You must be confusing one thing with another. Jesus gave us no new commandment but "fences around the Torah" which are ways to keep the Law holy and not giving new commandments.

The "Jews-for-Jesus" are not Jews but Christians under a Jewish disguise. My problem with Christianity is that Christians are using a Jew to preach against Judaism. Let them declare that Jesus was not a Jew but a Greek or any other ethnicity and I'll be here no longer.
 
Was Jesus a greek? Why would we say he was a greek? Judaism is not an ethnicity, but a religion.

When I was younger I was aware of Christians that whinged "the Jews killed Jesus"...

Today? While there are plenty of antisemetics out there...I'd say being an anti =semete is antichristian
 
Devils' Advocate said:
So you are open to interfaith as long as I use the texts you approve of. Shib, seriously?
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Not at all. I am open to interfaith dialogue, no matter what. If you use a text which goes against my views, I simply will have to tell you what and why. It is part of Interfaith dialogue to explain controversial opinions according to one's orientation.
 
BigJoeNobody said:
Have to take a sec to say you are making generalizations. Not all Christians are set on converting. But will agree a vast majority of the more religiously minded do. Same with Jews and Muslims and I assume most others.
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Not Jews BigJoe, we are not to get involved with missionizing activities. What we always have to say to Gentiles who have expressed their desire to become Jewish is to try to convince them that there is no need to do so. A non-Jew can be a righteous Gentile without having to become a Jew. Then, why add further burden to the Seven Noahide laws which are all that they need to obey?
 
BigJoeNobody said:
I would point out... Do listen, don't give in... but I agree nearly every person here is to a minor degree trying to assert his/her way as correct (as is natural)
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Right. That's perfectly natural to everyone. It is called preconceived notions. And preconceived notions is not a sin.
 
BigJoeNobody said:
Understood, I usually get the response from nearly every viewpoint. But I feel this is more a topic of debate which should have its own thread rather than fighting it out in the realm of other topics.
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Agreed.
 
BigJoeNobody said:
Except I don't think Isaiah was wrong, as most Muslims and all of what I would call true Muslims would not. We are taught that his message was that of truth. And he did not lie and was not mistaken. Our view is that the Truth that he preached was not recorded in exactness or completeness, and if it had, it would have been the Quran. Hence why so many parallels can be made between the Tanach, Bible, and Quran. Not that you have to agree, but it is our view.
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Now, regarding the doubt that the truth that Prophet Isaiah taught was not recorded in exactness is for us to decide based on the premise that it goes according to the Tanach in my case, to the Quran in your case or to the NT in the case of Christians. After all we all intelligent people.
 
BigJoeNobody said:
Just as an act of Interfaith, His virgin birth was also ascribed in Matthew and Luke. Not just Paul. Also as is commonly used as foreshadowing evidence:
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Jesus was born of a virgin aka "Almah" in Hebrew which is a young woman and not a physical virgin aka "Betulah". Since reference is given by the NT to Isaiah in 7:14, I feel the moral obligation to explain what Isaiah was talking about:

Isaiah 7:14 - The virgin shall be with child and bear a son and shall name him Immanuel. The virgin here is "Almah" in the Hebrew. A young woman. And this young woman is a reference to Israel if you read Amos 5:2. There we read that "the virgin Israel is fallen. That's when Israel the Ten Tribes fell at the hands of Assyria and her son aka Immanuel is Judah left alone in the Land.

Isaiah 7:15 - The child shall live on curds and honey until it learns bad from good. The expression "Live on curds and honey" means that he will live alone on the whole Land of Israel who had been taken to Assyria.

Isaiah 7:22 - And on curds and honey shall all that remain in the Land live. We know that the People who remained in the Land after Israel was taken away was Judah. Therefore, Judah was Immanuel which means "God with us." It means that with the removal of Israel from the Land, Judah was the only left to represent God among the Gentiles. Hence, Immanuel and, last but not least, we have Isaiah 8:8.

Isaiah 8:8 - Here, the Prophet identifies Immanuel by name as being Judah when he mentioned that the Assyrians had returned for Judah and, "they passed into Judah and flood all thy land O Immanuel." He called the Land of Judah, the land of Immanuel.

As you can see, there is nothing at all to do with Mary and Jesus. The reference in Matthew and Luke, was only an act of plagiarism with the intent to enhance credibility Jesus as the one.
 
Shibolet said:
Not Jews BigJoe, we are not to get involved with missionizing activities. What we always have to say to Gentiles who have expressed their desire to become Jewish is to try to convince them that there is no need to do so. A non-Jew can be a righteous Gentile without having to become a Jew. Then, why add further burden to the Seven Noahide laws which are all that they need to obey?
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what laws does a gentile need to obey?
 
farhan said:
IMHO regarding Judaism and Jesus, divine teachings always have an essence/reason and a physical form or law. A lot of times people stress the letter so much that it kils the spirit, and these are the times when law needs to be loosened up. There are many examples of this in islam. For example if someone puts a gun on your head and forces you to leave islam, simply say ok I am leaving. In the same way haram animals are allowed after 3 days of starvation and laws for stealing dont apply during famine. A literalist will say no, thou shall die rather than eating a pig. But thats not the divine reason behind the law.

In the same way jesus just loosened up a lot of man made stiffness in Jewish law. nothing else. If somebody is dying, you can break sabbath. Its not a new commandment, just a refinement of the old. The law was nailed to the cross by paul, not jesus

I and the father are one, in what? substance? who said that? Cant there be any other interpretation of this statement?
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Hi Farhan, I agree with you as the option we have to wave a commandment of the Law in order to fulfill another more important one. It is called in Hebrew "Pichuach Nephesh." For instance, to kill one in order to save your life aka self-defense, or to eat pork to survive if it is the only food available and so forth. That's great info as I did not know you guys had that allowance in Islam.
 
wil said:
Was Jesus a greek? Why would we say he was a greek? Judaism is not an ethnicity, but a religion.

When I was younger I was aware of Christians that whinged "the Jews killed Jesus"...

Today? While there are plenty of antisemetics out there...I'd say being an anti =semete is antichristian
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A Greek in terms of adopting the Greek religion. And for the anti-Semitic claim that the "Jews killed Jesus" you don't have to go too far. The NT claims it in Acts 2:36. It says plainly that the Jews crucified Jesus.
 
wil said:
what laws does a gentile need to obey?
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The Seven Noahide Laws:
  1. Do not murder.
  2. Do not steal.
  3. Do not worship false gods.
  4. Do not be sexually immoral.
  5. Do not eat a limb removed from a live animal.
  6. Do not curse God.
  7. Set up courts and bring offenders to justice.
 
Shib, Ben, what am I trying to convert you to, what point of view am I forcing on you? Please post quotes.
 
wil said:
Why would a gentile need to obey those laws?
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You don't have to. Just don't feel too upset when you have to pay for the consequences of a broken law of cause and effect.
 
A Cup Of Tea said:
Shib, Ben, what am I trying to convert you to, what point of view am I forcing on you? Please post quotes.
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I have never said that you are trying to convert any one. I just reminded of the Christian natural wish to convert others. Once, a missionary lady from Finland told me that the Christian who succeeds to convert a Jew, he or she will have salvation for granted. Now, go and try to understand the meaning of such a thing. Only fundamentalists are able of that much.
 
Namaste Jesus said:
Now, I'm not talking about what you believe, how you believe, why you believe or even if you believe. Just what that belief structure is based on and what has influenced you to believe as you do. Is it something you've read? Something you've heard? Something you've experienced or...?
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My beliefs are based on a number of things. My family owns a large barley farm in Southern Australia. The children of the Aboriginal men and women that work our farm were my playmates growing up. So I'd hear about Jesus on Sunday and listen to stories of the Dreamtime and such during the week. While attending college I was also exposed to Buddhist and Hindu cultures. So, by the time I graduated I was thoroughly confused and all but ignored religion altogether.

Then, I met this bloke from the states. He put everything into perspective for me and showed me how it all fit together. Now, I consider myself a Christian, but am more spiritual than religious.
 
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