On What are your Religious Beliefs Based?

BigJoeNobody said:
I've stated many times that I believe there are many paths that end with the same conclusion. For instance IMO (since I am Muslim) The straight path to the truth is Islam. Like the interstate between 2 cities. Between those 2 cities, there might be several highways, roads, even some dirt paths that will get to the same destination. But the 1 true path is the easiest, most correct route. And for this analogy, the first one to the city wins the biggest prize. But there are also roads that lead nowhere, roads that are treacherous, and roads that lead to another city. As my view is that other city is one of eternal hardship. Because you didn't follow the route prescribed, nor any part of it.
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Ok Joe, let us go with that. You think that is interfaith, and that is not "i am right and you are wrong".... Ok we'll take your analogy as accurate...except...

except Islam is the dirt path that never leads you out..or Islam is the side street with all the back roads, one way streets and dead ends...you'll get there...but whoever you are discussing things with...they are the highway...the freeway without the tolls and bridges...

That isn't interfaith my brother....that is still I am right and you are wrong. Discussing how others have it all wrong is not interfaith.

You are correct thou... I have issues with this...most of us do... and then the Bahai or NJ come by and say we all have similarities we all have the same core elements...well that pisses us off too doesn't it? We don't like that at all...how could polytheism and those that pray to Mary, or Jesus, or Shiva, or Thor have similarities to my beautiful Road??

Just because you are willing to listen and learn about other religions isn't interfaith....it is embracing that they have a way, and a belief that is equal to yours, as beneficial to them as yours is to you, and that would include the secular humanist, the atheist?

How about this analogy, similar to yours....there are many paths up the mountain... How about further....there are many mountains? or further yet, you don't have to climb the mountain at all...some use gondolas....others paraplanes....others astral travel...

Now what if on the other side of that path, at the top of the mountains....we ascend, transcend and are suddenly in a sea of consciousness each a molecule of thought....working as one...and none of us can differentiate ourcellves from each other but we are working together holding a vision of a peaceful universe.....while below we see others of us....all each individuals not knowing they are one, not knowing all paths lead to the same place...and arguing about menial bull crap instead of simply working on improving ourcellves?

As you know.... my fingers just made all that up...from bits and pieces of various things I've heard in the past that have accumulated in my psyche...is any of it true? I doubt it. But what if we lived as if? What if we lived respecting others paths... I have no problem with Islam, I admire your dedication of ritual cleansing and praying five times a day. I admire the five pillars and working towards accomplishing them. I admire the fasting on Ramadan... Do I admire it all? No. I don't admire the Islamist (I believe you and I say claimed Islamist) that straps a bomb to his back, or convinces others to. And I don't admire the one that says 'I am interfaith, but Islam is the only logical way'.

In the above you can 'insert any religion here' on the ones I admire... and "insert any hateful, intolerant belief here" for the ones I have issues with.

hell brother I am far from perfect. I can't make a great cake from scratch....I can't tell you how to make a great cake from scratch....but I can taste it...and tell you if I like it or not.

As salamu alaikum wa rahmatullah wa barakatuhu
 
BigJoeNobody said:
Just to throw the scenario back, is it possible that Isaiah did know the truth? Are you so locked into your way of thinking that maybe, just maybe Isaiah was correct. How then does your worldview accompany that idea, can you prove Isaiah (or at least what has been recorded of his teachings) to be incorrect? Is there any real way to discredit him? If the answers consist of him possibly being correct, then why if someone holds it steadfast it isn't possible that it is the "Only Truth". I have to add that your logic IMO is slightly flawed in that you can't associate people not agreeing with there not being a single truth.
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Okay that is fair enough, and I do have an answer for you. In my world view there are many truths, so in fact I do believe that it is possible that Isaiah did know the truth. Where we differ is that you believe it is the only truth (or in your revision the only direct path to truth, but inferior side paths may also lead to truth), whereas I believe because there are many truths, Isaiah can be the truth for some, and someone else can also have a truth completely different from him.

So you see I am not locked into the concept that Isaiah was wrong. I am only locked into the belief that his cannot be the only truth. My logic is not flawed because I cannot accept people who believe there is only one truth. I cannot accept that because of logic! If there were only one truth, everyone would agree with it. That there are millions of people with their own version of the one truth shows that a one truth possibility is impossible. It's basic second grade mathematics. One cannot be many. By definition!
 
Namaste Jesus said:
RE: #25
...but not everyone subscribes to Christianity or Judaism and of those that do, not all interpret the scripture in the same way.
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That's the point of Interfaith discussions. If we all believed the same, there would be no chance to learn anything as there is no learning in the chit-chattering of common beliefs but in controversy there is.
 
wil said:
While not quite....but that would be a huge step in the right direction. What have you learned? Whose views have you been discussing? It is obviously a blind side with me, I see you posting what you think about what other people believe... I don't often see you in actual discussion, just pointing out how Christians have it wrong.
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As you must know, Christians are by nature trained to convert. So, their aim is to bring the partner down to their same beliefs, so that the end of the discussion is the Christian mission to evangelize. It is only obvious that, if the partner has any Christian initiation, he or she will have no choice but to decline based on a variety of reasons.
 
A Cup Of Tea said:
No not really, I don't feel you ever listen to what I have to say and you have a fundamental, unchangeable and different view of faith and interfaith from me. There is no room for exchange between us.
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See what I mean? The only room you want to see in your partner in the discussion is the potentiality to make a convert. That's why you must perceive in your partner the attitude to listen and to give in. That's not so with interfaith discussions.
 
Lol... I guess I should take that back.

but hey Ben, have you heard of Jesus? Have you been saved yet? (lol, two questions this Christian has never asked)

gotta love generalizations and folks instead of saying what they believe and why...telling others what they believe and why...now that is interfaith (or may inyurface)
 
Kathie Bondar said:
I am the one who worked out the principles and method of telepathic communication. I needed to have a fairly good knowledge of psychology and world history, physics and chemistry helped, so there has been a pretty good preparation before I could get on with it.
I have established that we all have telepathy although most are not aware of it. By telepathy we are able to communicate with those no longer living on Earth, Jesus among them.
What truly amazes me about Jesus, is that two thousand years ago he became aware of his telepathy, that he could indeed communicate with those not then living on Earth. Today he is what we usually think of as God (I can just hear Moslems and Hindus howl). Not in the sense we think of God as an omnipotent, Omnipresent angry old man, but one who can hear your telepathic calls, address your issues and advise you on them in your best interest. Two thousand years ago Jesus may not have been quite able to articulate what he knew and even if he had, who would have believed him. He had to stay on the intellectual level of his contemporaries.
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The main point, for instance of the post above is the communication with the dead. The name is séance, a doctrine completely anti-Jewish and even forbidden by the Jewish Scriptures to be practiced by Jews. Since you won't deny that Jesus was a Jewish man whose Faith was Judaism, it is only obvious that the above post is anti-Jewish. Not anti-Jewish the People but anti-Jewish theology. Since your partner in this case is a Jew, I can't agree with you. Although I don't agree with you, this is still a piece of interfaith discussion.
 
BigJoeNobody said:
Shib,
I understand your argument, IMO Jesus cannot be God anymore than anyone else. I also believe the True Path was preached by all the prophets of Judaism and Christianity. And that over time both Christianity and Judaism were corrupted or at least lost in some of their truth. Isaiah's statement is absolutely true IMHO. But even today Jews do not adhere to the law exactly as it was recorded due to changes in social norms. Also there is reason to believe much of the Jewish scriptures have simply been lost. And of course the issue of Jesus. IF you do not accept him as a prophet because of whatever reason, can that same reason be applied to a previous prophet that is accepted. My guess is yes. But it is not my place to tell you what to look into.
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I welcome your understanding of my position. I find very difficult to interfaith with Christians because, they use a Jew who had nothing to do with Christianity to teach a complete anti-Jewish doctrine and easily go upset when another Jew does not agree with them.
 
Devils' Advocate said:
Shib I'm not at all sure that I can reply in a way you are capable of understanding. Which is not in any way a slight against you, your intelligence or anything of that sort. I don't think you are capable of understanding me because you are so locked into your truth that it is beyond your ability to comprehend that maybe, just maybe, Isaiah doesn't have the final word on the subject.

It is your interpretation of Isaiah that his is the last word on the subject of truth. There are a couple billion people on the planet that don't see it your way. I ask you, how can that be if yours is the only 1 truth. How can that be?
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Not mine. I don't know if you have noticed, I quote the Scriptures by a lot. Both the Tanach and the NT. I do this in the hope to prevent any personal assertion of my own. It is not of me to stick to what I adopt for personal vanity because what I adopt as a statement of Faith is not from the top of my head but from the written Word of the Scriptures. I am aware that billions of other people think differently from me. Hence, what I am forwarding is not of my own but from the sacred records. Different interpretations? Yes, I am open to other interpretations as long as they are according to the Faith of Jesus which was Judaism.
 
wil said:
I'd still like to see an interfaith discussion of Islam and Judaism between Ben and Joe...so they can show us what interfaith is.
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Sorry Will. If that is your only purpose, you are not being serious.
 
Shibolet said:
Sorry Will. If that is your only purpose, you are not being serious.
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Really? You both claim to understand what interfaith discussion is. A devout Jew and a devout Muslim discussing their faiths together?

What could be better? If you two could keep civil and actually listen to each other, ask open and not pointed questions, and actually consider the responses that would be huge!!

Why exactly do you think this would not be beneficial?
 
Shibolet said:
I welcome your understanding of my position. I find very difficult to interfaith with Christians because, they use a Jew who had nothing to do with Christianity to teach a complete anti-Jewish doctrine and easily go upset when another Jew does not agree with them.
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Excuse me? Who is this Jew who had nothing to do with Christianity? Are you taking Saul, who converted to being a follower and now referred to as Paul? or the Jew Jesus? or Mathew, or Mark, or Luke, of John, or James, or .... they were all Jews...
 
BigJoeNobody said:
I've stated many times that I believe there are many paths that end with the same conclusion. For instance IMO (since I am Muslim) The straight path to the truth is Islam. Like the interstate between 2 cities. Between those 2 cities, there might be several highways, roads, even some dirt paths that will get to the same destination. But the 1 true path is the easiest, most correct route. And for this analogy, the first one to the city wins the biggest prize. But there are also roads that lead nowhere, roads that are treacherous, and roads that lead to another city. As my view is that other city is one of eternal hardship. Because you didn't follow the route prescribed, nor any part of it. One day I may think of a better way to say this analogy, but I think by the time I completed it, It would be a small book...

Just to throw the scenario back, is it possible that Isaiah did know the truth? Are you so locked into your way of thinking that maybe, just maybe Isaiah was correct. How then does your worldview accompany that idea, can you prove Isaiah (or at least what has been recorded of his teachings) to be incorrect? Is there any real way to discredit him? If the answers consist of him possibly being correct, then why if someone holds it steadfast it isn't possible that it is the "Only Truth". I have to add that your logic IMO is slightly flawed in that you can't associate people not agreeing with there not being a single truth.
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This testimony could be the same used by all paths. It is too heavy with preconceived notions. You have spoken as a Muslim, I could say the same as a Jew and the same could be said by a Christian.

Isaiah said that to speak the truth, one must do it according to the Law and the Prophets. Could he be wrong? Oh yes, for you and for a Christian, it is natural that Isaiah could be wrong. So, what are we supposed to do, stop our discussions and go home? I don't think so. If we all think the same, there is no learning. Controversy is the best method to learn.
 
wil said:
Lol... I guess I should take that back.

but hey Ben, have you heard of Jesus? Have you been saved yet? (lol, two questions this Christian has never asked)

gotta love generalizations and folks instead of saying what they believe and why...telling others what they believe and why...now that is interfaith (or may inyurface)
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Is that meant to be part of interfaith dialogue? That proves only the Christian expectation of conversion of the partner-in-discussion. No, Will, Jesus implied in John 4:22 that salvation is not FOR the Jews but FROM the Jews. That's something quite different from each other.
 
wil said:
Really? You both claim to understand what interfaith discussion is. A devout Jew and a devout Muslim discussing their faiths together?

What could be better? If you two could keep civil and actually listen to each other, ask open and not pointed questions, and actually consider the responses that would be huge!!

Why exactly do you think this would not be beneficial?
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What you want to see is an argument between a Jew and a Muslim. That's not the proper thing to happen in a forum about interfaith dialogue.
 
wil said:
Excuse me? Who is this Jew who had nothing to do with Christianity? Are you taking Saul, who converted to being a follower and now referred to as Paul? or the Jew Jesus? or Mathew, or Mark, or Luke, of John, or James, or .... they were all Jews...
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Jesus. That's who I mean. He never even dreamed that Christianity would ever rise. And he was the one used by Paul to teach anti-Jewish doctrines. Paul IMHO, ceased to be a Jew when he founded Christianity in the city of Antioch if you read Acts 11:26.
 
Well hate to say it...while I agree Jesus didn't indicate he was forming new religion...by all appearances he was trying to clarify Judaism, with a new understanding... But since the Jews didn't accept him, and since Jews didn't accept the people that followed him as Jews...a new religion was formed...and try as you might you can't extricate Christ from Christianity.

So most Jews at the time didn't agree with Jesus's teachings.... a question for ya.... do most Jews today agree with your contentions?
 
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