shawn
Well-Known Member
In other words.....SUBMIT.
The same as Islam.
Don't think for yourself....let us think for you.
Jesus died: we're all saved?
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The same as Islam.
Don't think for yourself....let us think for you.
I track w/ya.
Agreed again.
It boils down to belief does it not?
You can believe by accepting Jesus as your lord and saviour, you are saved. Or that if you say so many hail Mary's and do xyz you've cleansed yourself, or that if you provide the burnt offering, or if you chant the or if you dance whirling or if you meditate...
Now while I happen to believe that following Jesus is the way...I believe it is the way for me and accept that the way for you may be to whirl and chant, and while I can enjoy the whritling and chanting it just isn't for me. And while I can't understand the thinking that saying a few words exceeds good deeds or that paying a pennance provides absolution or that lighting a candle, or burning some incense invokes a solution...while I can't understand that in itself, I do believe that belief is the truth and the way for others and I can accept an honor their beliefs.
Are we all saved because Jesus died. I don't think so, but a number of us have gained an understanding, a belief system, a comfort, collective family and salvation because of the stories of his life, death and resurection. And before that Isis, and Thor, and Moses, and Noah, and and and provided the same for others....and since that Mohamed, Bahaulla, Salassie etc have provided the same for even more...
For those alive and born in the future, maybe one of these stories will allow them salvation, a belief and understanding that resonates, but I think it more likely that G!d will continue to send messages that it is so...and I won't at all be surprised that more and more they become closer to coming closer and closer to the same things the secular scientists will be telling us...
Saltmeister
The Dangerous Dinner
Shawn and Chris, just for your own personal entertainment, I thought I might share with you something I found recently that you might find interesting based on what you've just said.
But that's just for you Shawn/Chris. No further commentary. No further indulgence.
For now anyway . . .
Nick the Pilot
Well-Known Member
Saltmeister,
I would add that fundamentalism has more of an emotional appeal than an idealogical appeal.
I would add that fundamentalism has more of an emotional appeal than an idealogical appeal.
BlaznFattyz
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No, it is not the same thing. Yes, it is obedience and submission, but not mindlessly or because of a group of people, culture, family, or some organization over you. It is an individual choice that depends on if you have accepted Christ into your heart. When i say Christ, i mean God, accepting Christ means accepting the saviour, the holy spirit and try to please God the father with your life. Upon receiving God into your life, and asking Christ for forgiveness as your saviour, what the spirit writes into your heart, you as an individual have to decide to do your best to please God and glorify Him, or to sin and grieve the spirit. the submission, the obedience comes out of love, respect, and honor. Just as God sent His Son to us, to reconcile us because He loves us, Jesus Christ who is God, humbled himself, submitted himself, to die on the cross for us, and was resurrected, raised up, and glorified back to the Heaven with his Father.
J
jgberg
Guest
The world with all it's defects hasnt been saved totally - As a Jew I can't say If Jesus saved a little or a lot: We still need to fix the world and participate in creation. This is why we call it in Hebrew: Tikun Olam - mending the world.
This is why we invest so much time in studying other cultures and learning understanding:
This is why we invest so much time in studying other cultures and learning understanding:
Jesus died: we're all saved?
This only makes sense if you are believer in the Jesus 'concept' and all the writings pertaining to Jesus of Nazareth.
In fact it is like saying a blood sacrifice has been made in order to 'save' humanity from something.
A religion that appears to put a blood sacrifice at its heart, and one that celebrates by the drinking of his blood and eating of his flesh, symbolically, metaphorically, seems to me rather archaic to say the least.
It also has overtones that could only be described as 'primitive' in terms of blood rituals.
That I do not remember Jesus having been said to state he came to save the whole of mankind is perhaps due to my having missed something in the texts, but the fact remains, that if we are indeed 'saved', why are there no material and objective signs (evidence) of this today, where wars and torture, starvation and misery, materialism and disease still hold sway over humanity. Nothing but human efforts seem to stave off, or ameliorate, these concerns, and there is precious little of that at the moment.
To put medical progress down to God's intervention, for example, seems a rather pointless exercise, because the important fact is that some control over AIDS, for example, can now be achieved, if the money and political will can provide for it. To even argue that medical successes, just as an example(!), are evidence of a 'concerned' 'God' whose Son died to 'save' us all, is stretching thigns rather, isn't it? Yet that is what some apologists claim.
I seem to remember long ago, Brian, discussing 'Hell' on his first Internet Community, and forgive if I am wrong, but the thesis seemed to be that the poetic view, the mythological view, is something that has accrued through time to today, and has little to do with the original 'words' in the Bible. If that is what we are saved from, perhaps all we have to do is wait and see, when the grim reaper arrives at our door.
If we ARE saved, what are we saved from?
What in fact, does the purported death of the Christ, have to do materially with that? Where, and what, is the evidence?
The only evidence lies in the hearts (and souls?) of the faithful, the believers in this religion.and perhaps there is nothing wrong with that?
jgberg,
This is just a quick note to welcome you to the interfaith.org/ forums. It's good to see another Jew here, and especially one who truly "gets" the concept of Tikkun Olam. But then I guess you wouldn't be Jewish if you didn't! Sure, you might be of Jewish ethnicity, but not really Jewish, if you know what I mean.
B'shalom,
Linda aka Raksha
This is just a quick note to welcome you to the interfaith.org/ forums. It's good to see another Jew here, and especially one who truly "gets" the concept of Tikkun Olam. But then I guess you wouldn't be Jewish if you didn't! Sure, you might be of Jewish ethnicity, but not really Jewish, if you know what I mean.
B'shalom,
Linda aka Raksha
Blazn,
No on all counts! I don't accept it; I don't believe in it...and I won't humble myself any more than I've already been humbled in my life. So what are you (or Jesus) gonna do about it? Personally, I don't think Jesus wants to do anything about it. I get the definite feeling he likes me just fine the way I am...and I am NOT a Christian!
--Linda
Namaste Raksha,
I'm betting Jesus loves you too!
As he asked us to love one another as he loved us...
But just a heads up...in each little sandbox we are supposed to be respectful of each others beliefs. It doesn't always happen, and not saying you've crossed the line, but just an FYI...
peace, wil
That's exactly what I raised in the opening paragraph, though:
- we are told we are stained by original sin, whether we believe it or not
- we are told we are saved, only if we believe it
There's a clear discontinuity between the two statements - either Jesus died and saved us, or not.
Believing shouldn't be an issue, because something that has happened objectively happens regardless as to whether we believe it or not.
I can disbelieve in gravity, but that does not mean I'm going to float off to the moon.
BlaznFattyz
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I guess you could like at it like that. There is an ultimate truth, and that truth is that Christ is Lord. Doesn't matter if you reject it, dont know it, or accept it, it doesn't change the fact that Christ is Lord and he will come again and he will judge man. It isn't man's rules, but God's. Can't really argue with God; its a losing argument.I can disbelieve in gravity, but that does not mean I'm going to float off to the moon.
The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.
Blayzn,
I agree that you can't argue with God, but who says that your beliefs aren't "man's rules, but God's"? MAN...that's who! And not only that, but the men and women who share your belief system don't appear to be the most intelligent OR the most decent specimens of the human race...to put it as tactfully as possible.
So why should the rest of us believe you when the major thesis of your belief system is unworthy of a just God? I guess you'll never understand this, but you aren't asking us to believe God. You are asking us to believe YOU...and that's just not gonna happen!
--Linda
BlaznFattyz
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Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father but by me" And the Father also says to listen to his Son. Has nothing to do with what i say, it has to do what God says. God loves you, wants to you believe in Him, love him like he loves you, forgive others like he forgives you, and share the good news that a life exists with God in Heaven when your life and this world as we know it has ended.
BlaznFattyz
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im sure in the grand scheme of things, there is a reason you have heard it 100 times before. the thing is, there isnt any words anyone is going to say that will change your mind in a cognitive way, but it is the Holy Spirit of God that will change your heart spiritually. it is a personal decision on your part to accept Christ because he is knocking at the door, and you finally decide to let him in, and then you can begin to grow as a person in Christ and be blessed.
Blayzn,
If you knew what I said in the e-mail I just saved in my draft folder, you'd undestand (possibly anyway) why I'm shaking my head and smiling at this.
--Linda
So in other words - I can disbelieve that Barack Obama is the President of the USA, but that doesn't change anything?
In which case, Jesus died, so we must all be saved, otherwise it would all be completely pointless?
ie, All are stained by original sin - but Jesus died to save those who believed they could be free of original sin.
In which case, there would be no reason for Jesus to die, because all people would have to do is believe they were freed from original sin in the first place?
BlaznFattyz
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So in other words - I can disbelieve that Barack Obama is the President of the USA, but that doesn't change anything?
Right
In which case, Jesus died, so we must all be saved, otherwise it would all be completely pointless?
He died so we might all be saved through his sacrifice.
ie, All are stained by original sin - but Jesus died to save those who believed they could be free of original sin.
Not original sin, but sinners, that which we have chosen to do against God personally.
In which case, there would be no reason for Jesus to die, because all people would have to do is believe they were freed from original sin in the first place?
Man cannot save himself. Believing that Jesus died for your sins, that you are a sinner; that he has the power to forgive your sins, and you ask for forgiveness; that he has the power over life and death, and you ask him to come into your heart, then you have passed over from death to life where you will have a place in heaven for eternity with God.
Right
In which case, Jesus died, so we must all be saved, otherwise it would all be completely pointless?
He died so we might all be saved through his sacrifice.
ie, All are stained by original sin - but Jesus died to save those who believed they could be free of original sin.
Not original sin, but sinners, that which we have chosen to do against God personally.
In which case, there would be no reason for Jesus to die, because all people would have to do is believe they were freed from original sin in the first place?
Man cannot save himself. Believing that Jesus died for your sins, that you are a sinner; that he has the power to forgive your sins, and you ask for forgiveness; that he has the power over life and death, and you ask him to come into your heart, then you have passed over from death to life where you will have a place in heaven for eternity with God.
Blazn has hers, Faithful has hers, as has Thomas and Dondi and Q and Luna and Path and and and....the following is a simplification of my understanding:
Paul said to put on the mind of Christ and let the mind of Christ be in you.
Jesus blazed the path for us Christians, he showed us how to rise to your Christ self, and save yourself in the process. He had attained that prior to saying only thru me...he was already representing the 'I am' in you.
Jesus could have talked the talk, but for us Christians to understand the full potential...he was crucified and rose...tis that that allowed us to understand.
Of course the stories of Krishna, or Moses, or Bhudda, or Mohamed or Bahauala...others that aren't Christian they've developed their understanding of what we know as Christ Consciousness, or the Mind of Christ...from another source...
Paul said to put on the mind of Christ and let the mind of Christ be in you.
Jesus blazed the path for us Christians, he showed us how to rise to your Christ self, and save yourself in the process. He had attained that prior to saying only thru me...he was already representing the 'I am' in you.
Jesus could have talked the talk, but for us Christians to understand the full potential...he was crucified and rose...tis that that allowed us to understand.
Of course the stories of Krishna, or Moses, or Bhudda, or Mohamed or Bahauala...others that aren't Christian they've developed their understanding of what we know as Christ Consciousness, or the Mind of Christ...from another source...
Yes, but...the entire point of Jesus being sacrificed was to atone for the Garden of Eden, isn't it?
No matter which way you go about it, if there is no "fall of man" in Eden, then there is no need for a sacrifice and resurrection - because there is nothing to atone.
Therefore the argument is - as I understand it - that to atone for original sin, Jesus had to die - literally, a sacrifice.
However, what you seem to be saying is something completely different - that it doesn't matter about original sin, and it doesn't matter about the sacrifice of Jesus - because, in fact, Christianity is about none of these things, but instead just looking up to Jesus to ask for forgiveness.
In which case, aren't we going back to the argument that Jesus either changed something fundamental about the universe, or he didn't - in which case, you seem to be replying that he didn't, because it didn't matter, he didn't have to die, he just to be there to provide forgiveness - hence doesn't that invalidate the entire Resurrection as a cornerstone of Christianity?
I'm not trying to be awkward here - I genuinely don't understand the situation or logic, hence why I'm asking to explore this further.