Can we know for certain anything about God and what he plans for us?

Can we know with certitude a God exists and his intention for the human race?


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You are putting these two side by side and comparing them again, as if they measure the same thing. Light years and kilograms measure different things for different purposes.
Really? So you think man, the one animal who has extincted half of creation, the one animal that has been fighting to control the world he has been given dominion over, the one animal who has been polluting the air and water and food supply, the one animal that has been provided not just the opposing thumb to make things, the legs to run, climb and swim, and the expanded frontal lobe....is actually G!D's highest creation??

G!d responds, "well hell, hindsight is 2020, hey, five good days outta six, not so bad eh?"
 
Religion wants us to believe that humanity is the apex of evolution.
If religions say this, in my view it's an inaccurate statement, for all the reasons DA mentions.

I've heard one sociologist suggest that man should have existed in the 'middle order' of the ecological ladder. He's a predator and he is prey. But then, by fluke or design, self-reflective consciousness came to the fore, and from then on he upset the balance and emerged as 'top' even though he was in every other respect less suited to the environment than the other animals ...

I understand man to be the apex of creation humanity contains within itself all the natural orders, standing a little lower than the angels. As an old priest once said to me: "Look at the night sky, the multitude of stars, the infinite depths of space, the ageless passage of time, and as wondrous as all that it, surely more wonderful still is the fact that we can comprehend it ..."
 
Seems G!d thinks so, she even repeated herself three ways...

Genesis 1:26-28King James Version (KJV)
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
 
For what? That was part of the mistaken illusion...just like footballers pointing to the sky...to what? An imaginary heaven we know is not up there? Australians, Europeans, Americans, all pointing up in a different directions... How does that even make sense?
Reverence. Humility.
 
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What is in the sky?
Reverence for nature as a living thing. Humility before mysteries of which we might now and then be able to unravel a thread or two. It's lost. Now it's Facebook.
 
And why pointing up? Why not down? Why not all around, why not within?
You don't point to yourself, because that which lie within represents the essence of God. Not God Himself. You don't point down, because that is in the negative, representing that which is evil. You point above, geographic location notwithstanding, representing that which is good, encompassing earth in all directions. God himself and the heaven to come.
 
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Really? So you think man, the one animal who has extincted half of creation, the one animal that has been fighting to control the world he has been given dominion over, the one animal who has been polluting the air and water and food supply, the one animal that has been provided not just the opposing thumb to make things, the legs to run, climb and swim, and the expanded frontal lobe....is actually G!D's highest creation??

G!d responds, "well hell, hindsight is 2020, hey, five good days outta six, not so bad eh?"
You lost me. What was it in what I wrote that you read as "Religion is right in saying that man is the apex."
 
You lost me. What was it in what I wrote that you read as "Religion is right in saying that man is the apex."
You said the two thoughts about the Bible... Indicating man was the top of heap and evolution in which man ended up
You are putting these two side by side and comparing them again, as if they measure the same thing. Light years and kilograms measure different things for different purposes.
 
You don't point to yourself, because that which lie within represents the essence of God. Not God Himself. You don't point down, because that is in the negative, representing that which is evil. You point above, geographic location notwithstanding, representing that which is good, encompassing earth in all directions. God himself and the heaven to come.
Huh, so it isn't an old throwback to the thinking that the Sky's above are heaven where G!d resides... I love the constant spin...of the earth...lings...trying to keep up.
 
You lost me. What was it in what I wrote that you read as "Religion is right in saying that man is the apex."
You said the two thoughts about the Bible... Indicating man was the top of heap and evolution in which man ended up top dog should not be compared...or.so I thought.
 
You said the two thoughts about the Bible... Indicating man was the top of heap and evolution in which man ended up top dog should not be compared...or.so I thought.
I just said they measure different things. What is measured can be vastly different between all scientific and (since Theology is not considered a science on the board) theological disciplines. To say "Religion says this" or "Science says this" is a simplification of such magnitude that I would consider it invalid on principle. But my original point was, stop putting them side by side as if it would say anything relevant about either science or religion.
 
Well, I'll ask the next ten preachers and ball players I see pointing up...for an informal poll on this.
It's a symbol through? Are you going at it because the symbol is unscientific? It's like saying your heart is crushed after a breakup IS IMPERIALLY INCORRECT! Can't we just let symbols be symbols because they have meaning for people?
 
To say "Religion says this" or "Science says this" is a simplification

Wasn't meant as a simplification. A generalization. Not sure why you have a problem with the comparison. It is a (generic) look at what man is in the world from one standpoint and then from another - and that they each come to very different conclusions.
 
Nope, cause the symbol is not biblical....
Sure about that? John 3:13 - And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven... Given that Biblical reference, symbolically pointing up to the heavens sounds perfectly reasonable to me.
 
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Nope, cause the symbol is not biblical.... Look neither high nor low...
High and Low has been long symbol of power, status, and Hierarchy. Birds, Monkeys, Lions, and other social Animals use this symbol of power or responsibility. The ones above are of Higher importance, The ones below are of less.

This symbolism has of course been used in human ego throughout History as well. Why does a speaker stand above his audience? Or the inhabited country's flag stand higher? Or a "rich and Powerful" person choose the top floor of a Hotel or apartment building? because of that same instinctive outlook. It would make sense that this symbolism make its way into religious aspects. God (in whatever name you give him) is Above all man in that he is more important, more powerful, and of higher status than any. We (Muslims) raise our hands in humility when we make supplications or Duas to Allah because we are asking from an entity that is much more powerful and we have no power against him so anything we receive from it, is out of his generosity.
 
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Huh, so it isn't an old throwback to the thinking that the Sky's above are heaven where G!d resides... ?
Well it's way more universal than that. It's only a 'throwback' if the metaphorical significance is opaque. People speak of 'uplifting experiences' or being 'down in the dumps', for example. Water flows downhill. It's so common, it's so ubiquitous its almost invisible.

Svarga Loka are the eight planes of Hindu cosmology, the highest Goloka is located on and above Mt. Meru. It is where the righteous live in a paradise before their next incarnation. Below the seven upper realms lie seven lower realms of Patala, the underworlds. Greek mythology has Olympus and Hades, the examples are endless ...

A belief in the axis mundi or world tree comes about because the tree transverses the horizontal plane. To the simple eye the roots are the mirror image of the branches, so we have a physical sign that lends itself to expressing the idea of the connection between this world and other worlds, located as higher or lower in reference to this one. The totem is derived from the tree. The world tree figures in nearly all Indo-European mythologies, as well as among the First Peoples of N & S Americas.

The idea of a paradisical state as above is common to the Abrahamics and the Ancient Near East, to Buddhists and Hindus. It's in Confucianism and in Chinese mythologies the Supreme Deity, Heaven and sky have a common root. Japan is the same, with deities both spiritual and human known as the Son of Heaven. It's there for Brahmins, Jains, Polynesians ...

It's everywhere, it's universal and it's a viable metaphor, whatever you choose to make of it. I really think your prejudice against its Abrahamic expression are getting in the way. It's a finger and the moon thing.

If simple people choose to image God this way, there's nothing wrong with that. It's no less accurate than any contemporary abstract intellectual concept, and often a lot more expressive and inclusive than the somewhat forensic expressions.

In Inside the Neolithic Mind, the authors argue that the imagery are so similar across time and space that a neurological explanation might be at play, drawn from subjective perceptions of altered states of consciousness. The NDE of 'entering the light', for example. There are corollary distressing experiences which share some similarities with the concept of Hell (whether that's because of education, I'm not sure). The positive experiences of 'the light' as intense feelings of love, peace, joy, bliss, one-ness transcends the everyday world.
 
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