Good for you!
I can only imagine why you are not so keen on the knowledge of the Father.
Who created God?
- Thread starter muhammad_isa
- Start date
Good for you!
I can only imagine why you are not so keen on the knowledge of the Father.
LOL, it's not your opinions about what you believe, it's your opinions about what you believe others believe! 
Specifically the curious way it brings Early Christianity into line with what you believe ...
I'm defending those who are not here to defend themselves.
I'm not calling into question your beliefs, nor declaring mine. Just defending theirs.
Specifically the curious way it brings Early Christianity into line with what you believe ... I'm defending those who are not here to defend themselves.
I'm not calling into question your beliefs, nor declaring mine. Just defending theirs.
@muhammad_isa
You should take that back. It's a despicable lie
Can I say that? Should I choose a different word?
Please report me. Other moderators are free to remove it.
Well, I'm quite prepared to if you delete your assertion.
"In fact the desperate and uninformed barrage upon it by someone of a different faith, only works to strengthen it"
I don't consider myself desperate or uninformed or "of a different faith" [ I'm a Unintarian Christian as well as a Muslim ]
Of course you don't.
Dear Lord, how have I allowed myself to get sucked back into this turgid whirlpool ...
Lies, half-truths, deliberate misunderstanding
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I shouldn't worry about it
We can all subscribe to what we like.
..but what are we defending?
Are we defending Christian or Muslim belief .. or our own understandings of what God requires from us?
It is easy to read a text saying "don't lean to your own understandings" ..
..so whose understandings SHOULD we lean towards .. the author of the Gospel of John?
Gnostics read John but interpreted it differently from the way non-Gnostics did. Gnosticism taught that salvation came from gnosis, secret knowledge, and Gnostics did not see Jesus as a savior but a revealer of knowledge.
..not so much secret knowledge, as knowledge from the Father
..not so much secret knowledge, as knowledge from the Father
OK .. as I say, I can understand that .. it is dangerous to philosophise about something and claim it as "truth".
However, I think yourself, @Thomas and I can agree that Origen believed in pre-existence of souls.
"Origen believed that each human soul was created by God at some time prior to conception"
Maybe he did believe that souls were eternal .. or maybe created at some point, as the above states.
As already stated, Origen's theology is difficult to ascertain due to corrupted text.
We are still left with the notion of what "a created soul" actually means.
It is quite clear what "create" means in terms of a physical being .. but a spiritual essence .. what's that?
As @RJM Corbet says "it belongs to God"
..so why should God want anybody to suffer in eternity? well, it is very obvious to me, that he does NOT.
..so why did he not make our souls "mortal", as many protestants claim?
The answer to that, is due to the fact that souls are eternal .. as is God. There are not lots of different spiritual "substances"
i.e. God is a special spiritual substance .. angels are another spiritual substance .. souls of physical creatures are yet another spiritual substance
Does that make sense?
If not, then what is a "spiritual substance" ? It sounds more like something physical, to me.
I thought that that was the whole point .. God is eternal, infinite and of spiritual "substance", and the physical universe is finite and NON-eternal.
..so is my last post gnostic? Is it "secret knowledge" of the Father?
No .. it isn't.
We know from what Jesus is reported to have said about souls abiding in heaven / hell.
Belief in an immortal soul logically follows from that.
No .. it isn't.
We know from what Jesus is reported to have said about souls abiding in heaven / hell.
Belief in an immortal soul logically follows from that.
I don't know what Origen said about souls nor do I care -- nor if your posts are gnostic. It's a free world.
It's strange you know little about Islamic writers.
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Yes. Doesn't make it true, just makes it what Origen believed ...
Do you believe in the eternal existence of the soul?
What about when He said: "And fear ye not them that kill the body, and are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him that can destroy both soul and body in hell." (Matthew 10:28)
"For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?"
(Matthew 16:26)
"Then he saith to them: My soul is sorrowful even unto death:" (Matthew 26:38)
stranger
the divine ignorance (and friends)
I hope to rejoin this discussion at some point, but all morning, off and on... FIRE. I'm trying to remember what was in Evelyn Underhill's writings concerning... Blaise Pascal, I think it was. How the normally glib Pascal found himself at a loss for words and could only write something like "from ___ to ___ (a certain amount of time, hours I think), fire....." Couldn't write a thing, just experienced the ravishing fire of God, absolutely shattering. When I'm at myself a little more want to rejoin, right now I have no idea what I would say other than our God is a consuming fire.
I hope I remembered the above correctly just working from memory.
I hope I remembered the above correctly just working from memory.
Indeed .. if a man has the whole world in "the palm of his hand", it cannot avail him on the resurrection day. Souls cannot be ransomed with worldly wealth.
36 Then cometh Jesus with them unto a place called Gethsemane, and saith unto the disciples, Sit ye here, while I go and pray yonder.
37 And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be sorrowful and very heavy.
38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.
39 And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
- Matthew 26 -
Yes .. I love the bit which says that he "fell on his face, and prayed" [ prostrated ]
Yes, I believe in the immortal soul .. souls are of a "spiritual substance" [ not physical ] and belong to God [ the Father ]
What is "the creation of a soul"? What does create mean in this context?
Souls belongs to God, and we return to Him. God [ the Father ] is infinite, and there is no
limit to how many souls there can be.
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Not really..
I'm not an Arab or an Asian and don't fluently speak their languages.
I live in a predominately ethnic white community, and was destined to be born a "Christian soul"
It's just strange to me that as a Muslim you should devote the vast part of your energy into the hairsplitting study and analysis of Christian writers and history, and know so little about Islamic ones, imo.Not really..
I'm not an Arab or an Asian and don't fluently speak their languages.
I live in a predominately ethnic white community, and was destined to be born a "Christian soul"
That's all
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stranger
the divine ignorance (and friends)
Seems an endless circle of questioning as long as the conceptual mind is all that is engaged.
Found this quote in The Darkness of God by Denys Turner (another Thomas recomendation). I think it is Eckhart but am not completely "with it" yet:
"Sometimes I have spoken of a light that is uncreated and not capable of creation and that is in the soul. I always mention this light in my sermons; and this same light comprehends God without a medium, uncovered, naked, as he is in himself."
Yes, it seems Islam adopted that practice – and facing east – from the Christians they rubbed shoulders with.
My question was whether you thought the soul eternally existing ... something immortal is not necessarily eternal.
I only ask because you said:
Whereas all along I assumed you agreed with the Arian argument against pre-existence.
As far as I know, Arius did not follow Origen. Nor, I think, did Arians generally, unless you have evidence otherwise?
stranger
the divine ignorance (and friends)
I just though of something funny. You three guys are kind of like a trinity of your own. Been battling it out over this thing for several threads, and my spirit kind of sits back and cocks it's head to one side and says "what, why....". Going from the Holy model, you could say trinities always have a purpose, but this one is even more of a mystery. Long time fighting at the ford.
Been battling it out over this thing for several threads, and my spirit kind of sits back and cocks it's head to one side and says "what, why....". Going from the Holy model, you could say trinities always have a purpose, but this one is even more of a mystery. Long time fighting at the ford.