The Jewish Zohar Shekhinah and the Christian, & Mormon Holy Spirit

[stranger]

Yes, that's the one I was talking about too. You are taking all that stuff literally? I don't know what it all means but I'm sure not going to take anything literal there. Usually not a good idea in Revelations. I can go with that last part about the lamb of God, I think. Well, we've run up quite a few posts here.

 

[RabbiO]

Well, if I typed here what I really thought it would probably offend every Jewish person within earshot....

Feel free to share your thought. If what you type is really offensive there will be plenty of time afterward to call you out on it.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Feel free to share your thought..

We are all individuals, and are responsible for our own deeds.
I am not responsible for my fellow brothers sins, and neither are you.

satan loves to cause division. Those that are close to God have nothing to fear.

 

[muhammad_isa]

You are taking all that stuff literally?

Not word for word..
..but don't forget, there are hadiths of the prophet Muhammad as well.

Some modern scholars characterize Revelation's author as a putative figure whom they call "John of Patmos".
Others consider that nothing can be known about the author except that he was a Christian prophet.

The beast is known as the dajjal in Arabic.

The Messenger of God

said, "Between the creation of Prophet Adam and the coming of the last hour, their will arise no matter more serious than the Dajjal."
- Sahih Muslim -
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The Dajjal will have water and fire with him. As for that which the people will see as water, in reality will be fire, which will burn and as for that which people will see as fire, in reality will be cold, sweet water. The Prophet's

advice is: "Whoever meets the Dajjal and sees the water and the fire, he should fall in the fire and not the water, as the fire in reality is water and the water in reality is fire.''
- Mishkat -
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

God'’s Messenger (ﷺ) said, “Whoever hears that the Dajjāl has appeared, let him stay far away. For by God! A man will approach him thinking that he is a believer, and end up following him due to what he throws at him from doubts and misunderstandings.”
- Abu Dāwood -
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Losing hope of entering holy places, Dajjal will turn towards Syria. Imaam Mahdi will already have arranged a Muslim army and will be on the verge of leading the Muslims in morning prayer when Prophet Jesus will descend and Kill the Dajjal.
- Ibne Majah -

 

[RJM]

I don't understand how I can be saved by an all powerful God who comes to us in human form and dies on a cross.

Nope. You do not

How?
What does it even mean?
Does it mean that somebody who is evil will have the same fate as somebody who is a saint, for example?

If they turn to Christ and repent.
You really miss the whole core of Christianity.
Christ forgives and heals

suppose you must think that the Qur'an is all lies. A cheap copycat fraud. Oh well.
God knows best

No. But inconsistent with Christian belief in parts, especially concerning Christ. Take your pick. Feel free to rubbish others' scripture and belief, but cry foul when anyone questions yours

 

[Cino]

I'm afraid I'm none the wiser.
I don't understand how I can be saved by an all powerful God who comes to us in human form and dies on a cross.
It is a most absurd concept to me .. after having been taken out of darkness into light, that is.

I suppose you must think that the Qur'an is all lies. A cheap copycat fraud. Oh well.
God knows best

Good summary. I think many people are torn between such seemingly exclusive positions.

How to be whole?

 

[stranger]

Good summary. I think many people are torn between such seemingly exclusive positions.

How to be whole?

Needs some alchemy from the Master Alchemist? A man hits the wall, he does his best but he falls short. But he'll always get back up, always, hoping the Master will make it okay.

 

[Thomas]

I don't understand how I can be saved by an all powerful God who comes to us in human form and dies on a cross. It is a most absurd concept to me ... after having been taken out of darkness into light, that is.

I'd say that's God doing what God always does ... what we are not able to do.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I don't understand how I can be saved by an all powerful God who comes to us in human form and dies on a cross.

Nope. You do not

Well, does anybody understand?
The first bit is fine.. "I don't understand how I can be saved by an all powerful God....."

Of COURSE .. We ALL can understand that .. including atheists.
..but.. "who comes to us in human form and dies on a cross" ???

that !

 

[RJM]

..but.. "who comes to us in human form and dies on a cross" ???

It is the core mystery of Christianity. Strange, isn't it, that the Saviour should come riding on a donkey to reach out to the weak and broken, to share their suffering even to death on a cross? Not what anyone was expecting of Him at all, now was it?

It has occupied the highest thoughts of kings and beggars and filled libraries with writings by the greatest scholars and thinkers for two millennia, still going strong.

No-one demands you accept it. Go your way and follow your own faith. However, you should have the grace to allow others to follow theirs. Not getting onto a roundabout with you this week ...

 

[muhammad_isa]

@RJM Corbet
Well, if we see the title of the OP,, it is about the Jewish Zohar.
@ScholarlySeeker says:

"Now, putting together the three components, the Mormon one, the Christian one, and the Jewish one, seems to me a more desirable all inclusive completing of knowledge rather than a competing which one is more authentic type of thinking. We are interested in the whole truth, not fighting singular aspects of one culture’s ideas against another’s"

It is quite obvious to me, that Jesus was a Jew who claimed to be the Jewish Messiah.
Jews do NOT believe that God has ever come "in human form" .. if we start saying that so-an-so is God or
a son, daughter, auntie, uncle, mother of God, it takes us away from the focus of Oneness .. which in turn
leads to misbelief. YHWH is what we should be focusing on, as the early Christians did with the septaguint.

I can quite understand how the belief of Jesus "rising from the dead" can conjure up all sorts of ideas of
about why that might be so..
..and come up with various theories of atonement and what have you.
However, none of it is particularly coherent.
We are all responsible for our own sins [ bad deeds ].

I have yet to find a good reason to believe that an individual's sins can be "wiped out", by "God dying on a cross".
Almighty God cannot die.
The only reason that I can see [that an individual's sins can be "wiped out"] is ------------->
-----> belief in the One God and what the messenger(s) taught, purifies the soul, and gives us a clean slate
i.e. born again

..nothing to do with God making a physical sacrifice whatsoever.
Somebody who is born again will still sin, and be accountable for what they then do.

 

[RJM]

@RJM Corbet
Well, if we see the title of the OP,, it is about the Jewish Zohar.
@ScholarlySeeker says:

"Now, putting together the three components, the Mormon one, the Christian one, and the Jewish one, seems to me a more desirable all inclusive completing of knowledge rather than a competing which one is more authentic type of thinking. We are interested in the whole truth, not fighting singular aspects of one culture’s ideas against another’s"

It is quite obvious to me, that Jesus was a Jew who claimed to be the Jewish Messiah.
Jews do NOT believe that God has ever come "in human form" .. if we start saying that so-an-so is God or
a son, daughter, auntie, uncle, mother of God, it takes us away from the focus of Oneness .. which in turn
leads to misbelief. YHWH is what we should be focusing on, as the early Christians did with the septaguint.

I can quite understand how the belief of Jesus "rising from the dead" can conjure up all sorts of ideas of
about why that might be so..
..and come up with various theories of atonement and what have you.
However, none of it is particularly coherent.
We are all responsible for our own sins [ bad deeds ].

I have yet to find a good reason to believe that an individual's sins can be "wiped out", by "God dying on a cross".
Almighty God cannot die.
The only reason that I can see [that an individual's sins can be "wiped out"] is ------------->
-----> belief in the One God and what the messenger(s) taught, purifies the soul, and gives us a clean slate
i.e. born again

..nothing to do with God making a physical sacrifice whatsoever.
Somebody who is born again will still sin, and be accountable for what they then do.

And you have made your opinion clear over multiple boards for months now. A-third of the worlds population do not share it. As is their right. Christ did not conform to what the religious 'professionals' of the day expected of Him. It's sort of the whole point, actually. Wrangling about literal scripture and dictionary definitions changes nothing. The fact that you do not, or will not, understand makes little difference IMO

 

[Thomas]

... if we start saying that so-an-so is God or a son, daughter, auntie, uncle, mother of God, it takes us away from the focus of Oneness .. which in turn leads to misbelief.

I get it, you don't believe in the Incarnation. We do, so the wiser course would be to settle to that.

We do not hound you over your beliefs, please respect ours.

However, none of it is particularly coherent.

by "God dying on a cross".

And if you are going to disparage what people believe, at least try and get it right.

 

[muhammad_isa]

The fact that you do not, or will not, understand makes little difference IMO

I cannot understand it .. and nor can you, apparently..

It is the core mystery of Christianity.

I wonder why you cannot understand what the Qur'an teaches?
There is no mystery there.
It explains the account of Adam, Moses, Jesus [ peace be with them ] in a totally coherent manner.

 

[stranger]

Feel free to share your thought. If what you type is really offensive there will be plenty of time afterward to call you out on it.

Rabbi, thanks... I think.
Okay...

10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn.11 On that day the mourning in Jerusalem will be as great as the mourning for Hadad-rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. -- Zechariah 12

I dare to say that this concerns the Jewish Messiah.

 

[muhammad_isa]

by "God dying on a cross".

And if you are going to disparage what people believe, at least try and get it right.

Ummm .. this is where the confusion and misbelief arises .. isn't it?
If one claims that Jesus is God and he died on a cross..
I am quite aware of the 'bells and whistles' .. as you know.

 

[Thomas]

Ummm .. this is where the confusion and misbelief arises .. isn't it?

In your mind, yes, because you're ridiculing a doctrine you haven't actually grasped.

 

[RJM]

and nor can you, apparently..

Oh no. I understand it perfectly. It's not that difficult

I wonder why you cannot understand what the Qur'an teaches?

Truth is, if anyone went out of their way to turn me away from the Quran, it would be your stone simple daily barraging with half-truth, selected facts and deliberate misunderstanding. Sorry. Please feel free to report, and other mods can remove my comment if they see fit.

 

[muhammad_isa]

In your mind, yes, because you're ridiculing a doctrine you haven't actually grasped.

In your mind as well, I would say.
I was referring to the concept of "Jesus dying for our sins" i.e. universal atonement

 

[Thomas]

I was referring to ...

I was responding to your saying "by God dying on the cross"