The Jewish Zohar Shekhinah and the Christian, & Mormon Holy Spirit

[stranger]

@RJM Corbet
Well, if we see the title of the OP,, it is about the Jewish Zohar.
@ScholarlySeeker says:

"Now, putting together the three components, the Mormon one, the Christian one, and the Jewish one, seems to me a more desirable all inclusive completing of knowledge rather than a competing which one is more authentic type of thinking. We are interested in the whole truth, not fighting singular aspects of one culture’s ideas against another’s"

It is quite obvious to me, that Jesus was a Jew who claimed to be the Jewish Messiah.
Jews do NOT believe that God has ever come "in human form" .. if we start saying that so-an-so is God or
a son, daughter, auntie, uncle, mother of God, it takes us away from the focus of Oneness .. which in turn
leads to misbelief. YHWH is what we should be focusing on, as the early Christians did with the septaguint.

I can quite understand how the belief of Jesus "rising from the dead" can conjure up all sorts of ideas of
about why that might be so..
..and come up with various theories of atonement and what have you.
However, none of it is particularly coherent.
We are all responsible for our own sins [ bad deeds ].

I have yet to find a good reason to believe that an individual's sins can be "wiped out", by "God dying on a cross".
Almighty God cannot die.
The only reason that I can see [that an individual's sins can be "wiped out"] is ------------->
-----> belief in the One God and what the messenger(s) taught, purifies the soul, and gives us a clean slate
i.e. born again

..nothing to do with God making a physical sacrifice whatsoever.
Somebody who is born again will still sin, and be accountable for what they then do.

Perhaps we are inching ever closer to the truth. No, God (the uncreated spirit) cannot die on a cross, but what can? Anything else, including sinless flesh. The human form may die upon the cross as a sacrifice and go down into death/hell, but it is impossible for the uncreated spirit to be holden of such things. There's a verse for that, I will have to look it up and post it here when I find it.

Okay, here it is, from Peter's sermon in Acts 2:

22“Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know— 23Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you [f]have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; 24whom God raised up, having [g]loosed the [h]pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it. 25For David says concerning Him:

‘I foresaw the Lord always before my face,
For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken.
26Therefore my heart rejoiced, and my tongue was glad;
Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope.
27For You will not leave my soul in Hades,
Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.
28You have made known to me the ways of life;
You will make me full of joy in Your presence.’

Perhaps a little more clear in this version:

22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:

26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:

27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I was responding to your saying "by God dying on the cross"

OK. My full statement was:
I have yet to find a good reason to believe that an individual's sins can be "wiped out", by "God dying on a cross".

..and @RJM Corbet says "It is the core mystery of Christianity."
There are just too many unsolved mysteries .. aren't there?

 

[muhammad_isa]

..No, God (the uncreated spirit) cannot die on a cross, but what can? Anything else, including sinless flesh..

"sinless flesh" .. what's that? Isn't it the soul that is responsible for sin?

 

[stranger]

"sinless flesh" .. what's that? Isn't it the soul that is responsible for sin?

I guess I mean any temporal aggregate or veil attached to the uncreated spirit. Corporeal, incorporeal, doesn't matter? Just anything that cloaks the uncreated spirit. Christ did what none of us could do in that he remained sinless according to the law.

 

[RJM]

There are just too many unsolved mysteries .. aren't there?

21st Century physics understands only 4% of reality. Sort of. The other 96% is an unsolved mystery. Perhaps if you have all the answers about God, you should at least be able to tell all those clever people the remaining answers to the physical universe?

"sinless flesh" .. what's that? Isn't it the soul that is responsible for sin?

Jesus Christ was born sinless by virgin birth, according to scripture. The new Adam.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Christ did what none of us could do in that he remained sinless according to the law.

OK .. that's fine.
..so why not the greatest saint that has ever lived? Why God?
The idea of Jesus being God is derived from his "rising from the dead".

That, of course, is not impossible IN THE LEAST !
Didn't Jesus bring Lazarus back to life? [ with His Father's permission / power ] ]

 

[stranger]

OK .. that's fine.
..so why not the greatest saint that has ever lived? Why God?
The idea of Jesus being God is derived from his "rising from the dead".

That, of course, is not impossible IN THE LEAST !
Didn't Jesus bring Lazarus back to life? [ with His Father's permission / power ] ]

Saints of old just meant anyone who was covered by the sacrifice of Christ. Positionally, saints, experientially, in the struggle, working out their own salvation with fear and trembling. It's a process. The end is secure but the process occurs in time. In other words, even the greatest saints are still sinners, a work in progress.

Yes, Lazarus was hopelessly dead but was raised to life due to the great love that flowed through Jesus from the Father, and through the faith of Martha, I believe? (Will have to check on that.)

Here:

17 When Jesus arrived at Bethany, he was told that Lazarus had already been in his grave for four days. 18 Bethany was only a few miles down the road from Jerusalem, 19 and many of the people had come to console Martha and Mary in their loss. 20 When Martha got word that Jesus was coming, she went to meet him. But Mary stayed in the house. 21 Martha said to Jesus, “Lord, if only you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 But even now I know that God will give you whatever you ask.”

23 Jesus told her, “Your brother will rise again.”

24 “Yes,” Martha said, “he will rise when everyone else rises, at the last day.”

25 Jesus told her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Anyone who believes in me will live, even after dying. 26 Everyone who lives in me and believes in me will never ever die. Do you believe this, Martha?”

27 “Yes, Lord,” she told him. “I have always believed you are the Messiah, the Son of God, the one who has come into the world from God.” -- John 11

 

[Thomas]

OK. My full statement was:
I have yet to find a good reason to believe that an individual's sins can be "wiped out", by "God dying on a cross".

Yep, still wrong.

There are just too many unsolved mysteries .. aren't there?

The real mystery is why you persevere.

 

[stranger]

Continuation of the story...

30 Jesus had stayed outside the village, at the place where Martha met him. 31 When the people who were at the house consoling Mary saw her leave so hastily, they assumed she was going to Lazarus’s grave to weep. So they followed her there. 32 When Mary arrived and saw Jesus, she fell at his feet and said, “Lord, if only you had been here, my brother would not have died.”

33 When Jesus saw her weeping and saw the other people wailing with her, a deep anger welled up within him, and he was deeply troubled. 34 “Where have you put him?” he asked them.

They told him, “Lord, come and see.” 35 Then Jesus wept. 36 The people who were standing nearby said, “See how much he loved him!” 37 But some said, “This man healed a blind man. Couldn’t he have kept Lazarus from dying?”

38 Jesus was still angry as he arrived at the tomb, a cave with a stone rolled across its entrance. 39 “Roll the stone aside,” Jesus told them.

But Martha, the dead man’s sister, protested, “Lord, he has been dead for four days. The smell will be terrible.”

40 Jesus responded, “Didn’t I tell you that you would see God’s glory if you believe?” 41 So they rolled the stone aside. Then Jesus looked up to heaven and said, “Father, thank you for hearing me. 42 You always hear me, but I said it out loud for the sake of all these people standing here, so that they will believe you sent me.” 43 Then Jesus shouted, “Lazarus, come out!” 44 And the dead man came out, his hands and feet bound in graveclothes, his face wrapped in a headcloth. Jesus told them, “Unwrap him and let him go!” -- John 11

 

[muhammad_isa]

The real mystery is why you persevere.

I like to think that it is the same reason as you..
i.e. we love Almighty God

 

[RJM]

I like to think that it is the same reason as you..
i.e. we love Almighty God

But only if we agree what 'my scripture' inerrantly says? Where 'your scripture' disagrees, it's wrong?

 

[Cino]

Needs some alchemy from the Master Alchemist? A man hits the wall, he does his best but he falls short. But he'll always get back up, always, hoping the Master will make it okay.

But @muhammad_isa summarized doubt in such masters. Who can make it right... not this one, not that one...

 

[Thomas]

And yet I see no reason to constantly disparage another person's belief.

You believe Islam is true. We get it. You don't believe in Nicene Christianity — we get that, too.

I believe it is true. I happen not believe an angel dictated a book, but out of love, and in respect of your faith, I don't haranguing you about that.

 

[muhammad_isa]

But @muhammad_isa summarized doubt in such masters. Who can make it right... not this one, not that one...

I think @stranger just pointed out this:

41 Then Jesus looked up to heaven and said, “Father, thank you for hearing me.
42 You always hear me, but I said it out loud for the sake of all these people standing here, so that they will believe you sent me.”

That seems to support the idea that Jesus is dependent on the Father, and is not God.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I believe it is true. I happen not believe an angel dictated a book, but out of love, and in respect of your faith, I don't haranguing you about that.

I don't mind if you do. I'm more than happy to discuss anything about the contents of the Qur'an.

 

[Thomas]

I don't mind if you do. I'm more than happy to discuss anything about the contents of the Qur'an.

I'm sure you are. I'm not so inclined, it's your sacra doctrina, not mine. Nor am I skilled in its content – I happen to think it's in error with regard to the life of Jesus, His nature and mission, but again, that's my belief. I'm not here to try and undermine yours.

I only wish you'd offer us the same courtesy.

 

[RJM]

That seems to support the idea that Jesus is dependent on the Father, and is not God.

The Father begat the Son authority before time began. Been discussed at length on multiple threads. Christians are not naughty children who embrace polydeism. Even if they did, that would be their choice and their right, none of anyone else's business and not needing correction by one of another faith.

The reason most Christians do not try debate the Quran in detail is because they are humble enough to admit that's for the Islam boards where they don't have enough in depth knowledge to do so -- quite unlike people who feel entitled to debate in detail the Christian scripture resourced on the fly from quick Wikipedia bites of all embracing instant wisdom

 

[Cino]

I don't mind if you do. I'm more than happy to discuss anything about the contents of the Qur'an.

If you lead a reading of a chapter, explaining its meaning as you understand it, I'm more than up for it.

Start a thread?

 

[muhammad_isa]

I..I happen to think it's in error with regard to the life of Jesus, His nature and mission, but again, that's my belief. I'm not here to try and undermine yours.

I only wish you'd offer us the same courtesy.

Well, I'm truly sorry if it appears that I am "bulldozing other people's beliefs"..
It seems that if we discuss the subject of Jesus [ which I am quite passionate about, as are you ]
it is inevitable that people can get upset.

We can't both be right about whether Jesus is God or not. I am not attacking the divinity [superiority] of Jesus, peace be with him, as you well know.
Neither am I attacking Almighty God [ May God forgive me for even suggesting such a thing ! ]

 

[muhammad_isa]

The reason most Christians do not try debate the Quran in detail is because they are humble enough to admit that's for the Islam boards where they don't have enough in depth knowledge to do so -- quite unlike people who feel entitled to debate in detail the Christian scripture resourced on the fly from quick Wikipedia bites of all embracing instant wisdom

Most amusing..
I don't see it as a pi**ing contest, myself. Why don't we leave satan out of it.

It is about social interaction with others, and trying to please God.
You have your understandings .. and I have mine.
I respect your faith, but you don't respect mine. I can live with it.