Is Islam peaceful and a good religion for everyone ?

RJM Corbet said:
Do you watch every step you walk, in case you crush a tiny beetle? Do you allow rats to share your home?
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..and that's what the concept of "original sin" in the Christian church means, is it?

Perhaps you can tell me why my grandmother was refused burial service of her 6 month old baby
because he hadn't been baptised? Which in turn led to her becoming an agnostic and turning away from
the church, and my father being raised without God.
 
muhammad_isa said:
..and that's what the concept of "original sin" in the Christian church means, is it?
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No. It's just what I think.
muhammad_isa said:
Perhaps you can tell me why my grandmother was refused burial service of her 6 month old baby because he hadn't been baptised?
Which in turn led to her becoming an agnostic and turning away from the church, and my father being raised without God.
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Sorry about that ...
 
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Genuinely very sorry
 
RJM Corbet said:
Genuinely very sorry
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Thankyou .. so you and @Thomas believe this?

The absence of sanctifying grace in the new-born child is also an effect of the first sin, for Adam, having received holiness and justice from God, lost it not only for himself but also for us. Baptism confers original sanctifying grace, lost through the Adam's sin, thus eliminating original sin and any personal sin.
- Catholic Encyclopedia -

Aquinas argues that Christ's death satisfies the penalty owed by sin, and that it was Christ's Passion specifically that was needed to pay the debt of man's sin. For Aquinas, the Passion of Jesus provided the merit needed to pay for sin: "Consequently Christ by His Passion merited salvation, not only for Himself, but likewise for all His members,"

..which doesn't include "guilty" unbaptised babies, it appears.
 
I understand that Islam does not have a doctrine of original sin, but I'm wondering ... are all children guaranteed heaven according to Islam?
 
muhammad_isa said:
Thankyou .. so you and @Thomas believe this?
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You need to stop telling me what I believe, Muhammad.

No book tells me what I believe. I have discussed what I believe this very day, and you have read it.

For the record I don't believe physical baptism is all that important. I can't believe it matters to God. That is why I do not say the Nicene Creed. I prefer the Apostles Creed that I was raised with by Jesuits.

I am truly shocked by how your Christian grandmother was treated by the Anglican(?) Church 100+ years ago, and the lasting effect it has had on your life.

Of course it's not fair to take it out on the Christians here. We have all endured all kinds of things in life and imo we have the inner choice to get beyond stuff in an adult way.

But I am truly sorry your grandmother was treated that way.
 
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Thomas said:
I understand that Islam does not have a doctrine of original sin, but I'm wondering ... are all children guaranteed heaven according to Islam?
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Yes .. without doubt. That is why:

2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
- Matthew 18 -

It is at puberty when sin becomes accountable.
 
RJM Corbet said:
That is why I do not say the Nicene Creed. I prefer the Apostles Creed that I was raised with by Jesuits.
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Oh OK. That's interesting.

RJM Corbet said:
Of course it's not fair to take it out on the Christians here. We have all endured all kinds of things in life and imo we have the inner choice to get beyond stuff in an adult way.
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I'm not taking it out on anybody. I don't bear a grudge.
I was just pointing out that I think it's wrong to think of baptism in that way, and
citing a very relevant example.
 
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muhammad_isa said:
Yes .. without doubt.
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OK.

It seemed to me this Islamic reference site, and wiki, is not so definitive.

To explain the Catholic position:
Our Lord affirmed that Baptism is necessary for salvation (Mark 16:16, John 3:5). Because no other explicit teaching was given, the Church cannot affirm other means of assuring entry into heaven without it, without contradicting the word of Scripture.

However, Christ died for all, that sins may be forgiven, and since all are called to the one and the same destiny (cf 1 Timothy 2:4), holds that it is within the gift of the Holy Spirit to baptise whomsoever the Spirit wills (cf John 3:8).

As for children, we trust in the mercy of God that they be saved, as we do in the funeral rites for them. Indeed, Jesus said: "Suffer the little children to come unto me" (Mark 10:14), and in this we hope and believe in the salvation of those without Baptism.

So this is one of those instance where the letter is the letter, but the spirit transcends the letter.
 
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The overwhelming evidence (from the Qur'an) is:

Allah SWT forgives whomsoever He wills, and punishes whomsoever He wills.
..and a new born baby is not likely to go to hell, surely???
 
Thomas said:
The relevance is Jesus Christ is the Messiah and God; man and God.


No, I was holding a mirror to yourself, that's all. Your comment I was responding to was similarly bigoted and abusive.


Their error, and then a case of the blind leading the blind.


I'm not insisting in that view. I'm saying the objection is erroneous.
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May l remind you of your own words - this is an interfaith forum, don't impose your views on others. It's about how you reason it. You have no reasoning, just repeated negative assertions without integrating feedback aka trolling.

As l say, the two terms are mutually exclusive.

Mirroring me? Yes you are, no you aren't, my objection is erroneous JUST BECAUSE OKAY!!! ner ner ner. Nah .... l don't want this style of discussion Thomas.


May you find peace, Thomas.
 
muhammad_isa said:
Well, I hate to disagree with my learned Saudi brother, but that is a lot of nonsense :D
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Agree, but Thomas will cherry pick. It's just one (frankly surprising) hadith he picked out in that entire page, and it is at odds with every other thing and with logic. There's no way infants will enter hell, even though God could send the good to hell and the bad to heaven, God has declared himself just instead - and he never had to do that, and moreoever, his mercy predominates his wrath so he actually has a bias toward mercy, more than even our own mothers have.
 
SufiPhilosophy said:
You have no reasoning, just repeated negative assertions without integrating feedback aka trolling.
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Explain what you're talking about? Thomas was posting here when you were probably in short pants. You are just being abusive.

Make your case without personal abuse
 
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RJM Corbet said:
Explain what you're talking about? Thomas was posting here when you were probably in short pantss. You are just being abusive.

Maybe the hardest wisdom to know/accept in life -- what's gone forever.

Make your case without personal abuse
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Length of tenure means nothing and also don't be so personal about it, it's not about me or my age but specific violations of logic and reason as l have shown. QED.
I'm sorry to hear he's been here so long.
I'm not being abusive l'm pointing out logical fallacies and pointing out that he is strictly speaking trolling which you yourself agreed to the definition of elsewhere.

He is spearheading an argument along the lines of "Jesus is God and Messiah ner ner ner l can't hear you ner ner ner". I am clearly calling him out on that and my post was self contained, it was self explanatory. Read it? Bye ! I hope you find peace.
 
The question is, do ALL children go to heaven, according to Islam? We do not know your scriptures. An answer will suffice. That's all that is required.
 
RJM Corbet said:
The question is, do ALL children go to heaven, according to Islam? We do not know your scriptures. An answer will suffice. That's all that is required.
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That was a separate matter.
I say yes, all infants do, if it is God's will, and clearly he wills it. I consider infants his friends, a sort of proto-saint status.
 
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