Follow Christ but not Christian

I agree with this because it's not like the population of Jerusalem during His time of execution was like the DFW population of 6.5 million . It is estimated at 20,000 by archeologists prior to it's destruction in 70 AD. Everyone would have known who Jesus was and His ministry and His death. In a 40 day period He appeared many times and once to a group of 500 people.. another point is that all of His disciples except for John were martyred and died painful deaths. Honestly if He wasn't resurrected and appeared to them on so many occasions I can't help but believe they wouldn't have been so on fire proclaiming Him. Christianity would not have survived without this miracle because that is the pivotal moment for our faith.
 
I have been asking about these crucifixion and census records that many non-believers go on about. Where are they? As you say, the Romans kept excellent records. So where are all of these records of commoners being crucified and being part of the census? They must exist, as you all seem to claim. So where are they? Because there isn't some long list of crucifixions and citizens of Judah from that time period. But you will give evidence of this, right? I'm definitely assured that the Romans, in a recently conquered part of Rome, would definitely keep record of a man executed without crime and from an illegal trial.... right? The Romans would definitely keep that record front and center... right?

So show me the complete records of the executions and census from that time period in the area of Judea and I promise to show you Jesus's crucifixion. I've been waiting 20 years for this list. Not one non-believer has been able to provide it.
I'm not in the habit of doing someone else's work but here is a starting point.

I have a vast library of books including the Roman era, there are records for thousands of executions and crucifixions . . . I'm going on my memory and would have to do some research as to where I know this to be true. Which I do not have the time to do right now.

As for all the names your listed . . . all of them are well documented throughout history. No one, in the time of Yeshua's life ever mentioned Him, even in passing. I'll stick to my guns and reinstate that Yeshua the Nazarene never existed and He certainly didn't exist as the Son of Yahweh, or some kind of Messiah (as there were many failed Messiahs before Him)
 
Paul was writing within about 25 yrs after the crucifixion, and says he met with Peter and James, the brother of Jesus. How likely is it that a non-existent Jesus has already gained such a following within that time?
Without a doubt in my mind, Paul IS the inventor of Christianity . . . and it wasn't based on anyone else's philosophy (like Yeshua), it was a religious fabrication.
 
I'm not in the habit of doing someone else's work but here is a starting point.
Begging pardon, but you made the claim...onus is on you.

And the reference is, politely, misdirection. There are no records of crucifixions at all at the link, nor are any even referenced or alluded to.
 
I'm just more and more grateful that I blocked that guy.i can just imagine what he is saying. Nonetheless Psalm 22 predated Roman crucifixion as it had not been invented yet.

Psalm 22:16 For dogs have surrounded Me;
The congregation of the wicked has enclosed Me.
They pierced My hands and My feet;
17 I can count all My bones.
They look and stare at Me.
18 They divide My garments among them,
And for My clothing they cast lots.
 
The extant manuscripts of the book Antiquities of the Jews, written by the first-century Jewish historian Flavius Josephus around AD 93–94, contain two references to Jesus of Nazareth and one reference to John the Baptist.[1]

The first and most extensive reference to Jesus in the Antiquities, found in Book 18, states that Jesus was the Messiah and a wise teacher who was crucified by Pontius Pilate. It is commonly called the Testimonium Flavianum.[2] Almost all modern scholars reject the authenticity of this passage in its present form, while most scholars nevertheless hold that it contains an authentic nucleus referencing the life and execution of Jesus by Pilate, which was then subject to Christian interpolation or alteration.[3][4] However, the exact nature and extent of the Christian addition remains unclear.[5][6]

Modern scholarship has largely acknowledged the authenticity of the second reference to Jesus in the Antiquities, found in Book 20, Chapter 9, which mentions "the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James."[7] This reference is considered to be more authentic than the Testimonium.[8][9][10]

Almost all modern scholars consider the reference in Book 18, Chapter 5 of the Antiquities to the imprisonment and death of John the Baptist also to be authentic and not a Christian interpolation.[11] A number of differences exist between the statements by Josephus regarding the death of John the Baptist and the New Testament accounts.[12] Scholars generally view these variations as indications that the Josephus passages are not interpolations, since a Christian interpolator would likely have made them correspond to the New Testament accounts, not differ from them.[13] Scholars have provided explanations for their inclusion in Josephus' later works.[14]

emphasis mine - jt3

Josephus, Antiquities, Book 20 Chapter 9:

1. AND now Caesar, upon hearing the death of Festus, sent Albinus into Judea, as procurator. But the king deprived Joseph of the high priesthood, and bestowed the succession to that dignity on the son of Ananus, who was also himself called Ananus. Now the report goes that this eldest Ananus proved a most fortunate man; for he had five sons who had all performed the office of a high priest to God, and who had himself enjoyed that dignity a long time formerly, which had never happened to any other of our high priests. But this younger Ananus, who, as we have told you already, took the high priesthood, was a bold man in his temper, and very insolent; he was also of the sect of the Sadducees,[23] who are very rigid in judging offenders, above all the rest of the Jews, as we have already observed; when, therefore, Ananus was of this disposition, he thought he had now a proper opportunity [to exercise his authority]. Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrim of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, [or, some of his companions]; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned: but as for those who seemed the most equitable of the citizens, and such as were the most uneasy at the breach of the laws, they disliked what was done; they also sent to the king [Agrippa], desiring him to send to Ananus that he should act so no more, for that what he had already done was not to be justified; nay, some of them went also to meet Albinus, as he was upon his journey from Alexandria, and informed him that it was not lawful for Ananus to assemble a sanhedrim without his consent.[24] Whereupon Albinus complied with what they said, and wrote in anger to Ananus, and threatened that he would bring him to punishment for what he had done; on which king Agrippa took the high priesthood from him, when he had ruled but three months, and made Jesus, the son of Damneus, high priest.

emphasis mine - jt3

Josephus, Antiquities, Book 18, Chapter 5:
2. Now some of the Jews thought that the destruction of Herod's army came from God, and that very justly, as a punishment of what he did against John, that was called the Baptist: for Herod slew him, who was a good man, and commanded the Jews to exercise virtue, both as to righteousness towards one another, and piety towards God, and so to come to baptism; for that the washing [with water] would be acceptable to him, if they made use of it, not in order to the putting away [or the remission] of some sins [only], but for the purification of the body; supposing still that the soul was thoroughly purified beforehand by righteousness. Now when [many] others came in crowds about him, for they were very greatly moved [or pleased] by hearing his words, Herod, who feared lest the great influence John had over the people might put it into his power and inclination to raise a rebellion, (for they seemed ready to do any thing he should advise,) thought it best, by putting him to death, to prevent any mischief he might cause, and not bring himself into difficulties, by sparing a man who might make him repent of it when it would be too late. Accordingly he was sent a prisoner, out of Herod's suspicious temper, to Macherus, the castle I before mentioned, and was there put to death. Now the Jews had an opinion that the destruction of this army was sent as a punishment upon Herod, and a mark of God's displeasure to him.

Jospehus:

Flavius Josephus[a] (/dʒoʊˈsiːfəs/;[7] Greek: Ἰώσηπος, Iṓsēpos; c. AD 37 – c. 100) was a Roman–Jewish historian and military leader. Best known for writing The Jewish War, he was born in Jerusalem—then part of the Roman province of Judea—to a father of priestly descent and a mother who claimed royal ancestry.

He initially fought against the Roman Empire during the First Jewish–Roman War as general of the Jewish forces in Galilee, until surrendering in AD 67 to the Roman army led by military commander Vespasian after the six-week siege of Yodfat. Josephus claimed the Jewish messianic prophecies that initiated the First Jewish–Roman War made reference to Vespasian becoming Roman emperor. In response, Vespasian decided to keep Josephus as a slave and presumably interpreter. After Vespasian became emperor in AD 69, he granted Josephus his freedom, at which time Josephus assumed the Emperor's family name of Flavius.[8]

Flavius Josephus fully defected to the Roman side and was granted Roman citizenship. He became an advisor and friend of Vespasian's son Titus, serving as his translator when Titus led the siege of Jerusalem in AD 70. Since the siege proved ineffective at stopping the Jewish revolt, the city's pillaging and the looting and destruction of Herod's Temple (Second Temple) soon followed.

 
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Begging pardon, but you made the claim...onus is on you.

And the reference is, politely, misdirection. There are no records of crucifixions at all at the link, nor are any even referenced or alluded to.
I understand not everyone has the capacity for scholarly research, but unfortunately, I am on the road with my band right now and getting ready for load-in and soundcheck . . . so, I do not have access to my library nor do I care to perform the multiple internet searches.

There are so many reasons for the fabrication of the Christ Messiah, it is hysterical. I just don't get why any logical person would even consider this story.
 
Without a doubt in my mind, Paul IS the inventor of Christianity . . . and it wasn't based on anyone else's philosophy (like Yeshua), it was a religious fabrication.
Not quite:

 
Not quite:

Quite
 
The fact that Jesus didn't leave a script is really a spurious argument. Same goes for Judaism, same for Buddhism, Hinduism, and so on.
Those of us who pick and choose the sayings, allegory, platitudes from those texts and disregard the problematic ones agree.
 
Interesting reading this thread...and for me...it.doesnt matter.whether he existed or not, since I am not married to proving every jot and tittle...but prefer to take those red and pink lettered phrases...that are found in the Bible AND gospel of Thomas and find them extremely valuable to guide me, or at least consider in various moments in my life.

I have said it before...007, McGiver and Tom Sawyer did not exist either...but that does not mean I cannot consult or consider that archetype when making decisions in this life.
 
Interesting reading this thread...and for me...it.doesnt matter.whether he existed or not, since I am not married to proving every jot and tittle...but prefer to take those red and pink lettered phrases...that are found in the Bible AND gospel of Thomas and find them extremely valuable to guide me, or at least consider in various moments in my life.

I have said it before...007, McGiver and Tom Sawyer did not exist either...but that does not mean I cannot consult or consider that archetype when making decisions in this life.
Finally, some common sense! I have no qualms (other than I disagree with some it) for someone taking the existing texts and basing their faith on it. Isn't that what 'most' of us do in all faiths?

If Christianity is a Judaic/Gnostic-inspired Paulian device (as I believe it to be) and someone gets something beneficial from it then good for them.
 
I'm not in the habit of doing someone else's work but here is a starting point.

I have a vast library of books including the Roman era, there are records for thousands of executions and crucifixions . . . I'm going on my memory and would have to do some research as to where I know this to be true. Which I do not have the time to do right now.

As for all the names your listed . . . all of them are well documented throughout history. No one, in the time of Yeshua's life ever mentioned Him, even in passing. I'll stick to my guns and reinstate that Yeshua the Nazarene never existed and He certainly didn't exist as the Son of Yahweh, or some kind of Messiah (as there were many failed Messiahs before Him)
An excerpt from a census long after Jesus is NOT what I am talking about. Supposedly there are some immaculate records that can be found that show the complete censuses and crucifixions from the time of Jesus. So YOU need to back up your claim. That means YOU need to do your homework. So do YOUR work and prove your claim. You will be the first. Yes, there are records of certain famous executions and some random excerpts of census records. Complete concise records from the land of Judea that would back up your claim? Nope. Do your work and prove your claim. Or stop making the claim. It's a common "Google expert" claim that has never been proven.
 
I'm not in the habit of doing someone else's work but here is a starting point.

I have a vast library of books including the Roman era, there are records for thousands of executions and crucifixions . . . I'm going on my memory and would have to do some research as to where I know this to be true. Which I do not have the time to do right now.

As for all the names your listed . . . all of them are well documented throughout history. No one, in the time of Yeshua's life ever mentioned Him, even in passing. I'll stick to my guns and reinstate that Yeshua the Nazarene never existed and He certainly didn't exist as the Son of Yahweh, or some kind of Messiah (as there were many failed Messiahs before Him)
All of the names I listed have zero or sketchy evidence from their lives to prove their existence. According to you, many historical figures didn't exist (by your logic). If we don't have writings proven to be from them from their lifetime, then they obviously didn't exist. Other posters here have mentioned other names as well. Sad to say, I guess these guys never existed.... according to you.
 
Me thinks this thread supports another adage being true...

For some no proof is required, and for others, no proof is enough.
I find that for most people, the proof needed to back up their opinion can be scant... but no matter how true the evidence is against their opinion, their opinion will always stay the same. It's the same with politics. A news network can simply say that politician A is corrupt and followers of politician B will believe it. Show a video clip of politician B murdering someone and the followers of politician B will fight that evidence to the end. Evidence is only evidence to most people if it backs up their beliefs.
 
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