Do serve God...or a 'Trinity'?

harmonicat said:
Hebrews 2:17 says, Jesus was fully human in every way." Can you quote a passage that says Jesus is "FULLY" God?

The OT says more than once that "God cannot be a man."
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When God identified Himself as I AM WHO I AM He said that, no matter when or where He is there. It is similar to Revelation 1:8, “‘I am the Alpha and the Omega,’ says the Lord God, ‘who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.’”

God is the only One who can describe Himself as I AM Jesus claimed the title I AM for Himself in John 8:58. And all the doubters about what that meant? The Pharisees knew what that meant which is why they wanted to kill Him right then and there which was unlawful for them to do for anything other than what Jesus claimed to be.

I am saying that Jesus was fully man AND fully God.
 
harmonicat said:
Thousands were murdered for rejecting trinity. People were also tortured and murdered over Baptism. Even Calvin murdered a few non-trinitarians. He even murdered a young boy for disobeying his parents.
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This is a long frustrating issue for me. Many evil acts were done in the name of God. This is not God's fault and it doesn't in itself discount the Trinity which we saw established at Jesus' baptism. Satan is our accuser day and night.
 
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muhammad_isa said:
More logical contradiction..
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Light is both a particle and a wave. Time and space form a dimensional matrix that causes space curvature and represents gravity, which can collapse into infinity.

Just because it seems like a logical contradiction to you ... with human words and human limitations

Christ is Emmanuel -- God with us

Reality is strange and illogical and counter intuitive. God isn't required to conform to whatever limitations man decides
 
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harmonicat said:
So you believe in something you cannot understand. For me and most others, it's the contradictions in Trinity that causes people to disbelieve it.

Jesus was fully human...

Hebrews 2:17 For this reason he had to be made like them,[k] FULLY HUMAN IN EVERY WAY, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. 18 Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

What you need to realize is the hypostatic union destroys the atonement. If Jesus was God that makes him a fraud and the cross a hoax.

The bible says he was tempted IN EVERY WAY AND THAT HE KNEW TEMPTATION. It also says that "God cannot be tempted and therefore cannot sin."

If Jesus was God that means he could not have sinned anyway. (Back to the only Trinitarian answer of TWO NATURES) That makes the Word of God totally contradictory - makes Jesus a fraud because he never would have to overcome sin since he also being God couldn't have been tempted to sin anyway - ultimately making him a fraud and the cross a complete hoax and the atonement for sin a complete hoax - think about it.
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Who did Abraham meet and worship? Who did Moses meet and pray to at Mt. Sinai? Who did Joshua speak to and pray to at Jericho? Isn't this God who they spoke to? If not, who was it? You don't have to believe in the Trinity to know that Jesus claimed to be God. Even His brother Thomas referred to Him as God.
 
Christ is the bridge, the narrow way between the eternal divine and temporal man, imo -- fully Spirit and fully nature -- perfectly both. Is it a mystery and difficult to understand? Yes.

Does that mean it's false?
 
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moralorel said:
Who did Abraham meet and worship? Who did Moses meet and pray to at Mt. Sinai? Who did Joshua speak to and pray to at Jericho? Isn't this God who they spoke to? If not, who was it? You don't have to believe in the Trinity to know that Jesus claimed to be God. Even His brother Thomas referred to Him as God.
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Thomas referred to Jesus as "HIS" God which was a common way of speaking and shows a broader meaning

The word 'theos' is used multiple ways. Its primary definition is, "a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities.

God is distinguished from Jesus, and Jesus has a God, John 20:17 reads, "Jesus said to her, ‘Do not touch me, because I have not yet gone up to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, “I am going up to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God." How would ‘God’ (Jesus) have a ‘God’ (the Father) if there is only one God (Deut. 6:4; Isa. 44:6; John 17:3)? So, it would be rather strange for us to confuse God and Jesus here in John 20:28, making them one and the same.
 
Faithfulservant said:
The three verses in the OT are taken out of context.. He was saying He was not a man with mans failings. You can't dissemble the entire doctrine of Christ divinity based on that.
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If they are equal, why did Jesus say in John 14:28

"Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: FOR MY FATHER IS GREATER THAN I."

Why did he say in John 10:29,

"My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."

And why did Jesus say in John 13:16

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him."
 
Folks get hung up on the literal words. God isn't a Father individual up there personally creating the universe. God is eternal Spirit.

There is no actual Father, no actual Son. They are human words to describe a relationship between eternal Spirit and changing nature. Spirit weaves nature. The greater house of Spirit surrounds and contains and permeates the room (dimension) of nature, that is bounded by walls of time and space and ends in death. There are many other dimensions within the house of spirit -- perhaps infinite other dimensions -- beside our present dimension of nature.

My Father's house has many mansions.
 
harmonicat said:
If they are equal, why did Jesus say in John 14:28

"Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: FOR MY FATHER IS GREATER THAN I."

Why did he say in John 10:29,

"My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."

And why did Jesus say in John 13:16

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him."
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They are equal as they are all God but there is a relational subordination. The Father sent the Son and Jesus sent the Holy Spirit. The roles are never reversed but are consistent with what Jesus told us. The Holy Spirit points us to Jesus and Jesus points us to the Father. All are worthy of praise and receive such in Scripture but only God is worthy of praise.
 
harmonicat said:
God is distinguished from Jesus, and Jesus has a God, John 20:17 reads, "Jesus said to her, ‘Do not touch me, because I have not yet gone up to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, “I am going up to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God." How would ‘God’ (Jesus) have a ‘God’ (the Father) if there is only one God (Deut. 6:4; Isa. 44:6; John 17:3)? So, it would be rather strange for us to confuse God and Jesus here in John 20:28, making them one and the same.
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Can you provide where you are copying and pasting from? Thanks!
 
Faithfulservant said:
They are equal as they are all God but there is a relational subordination. The Father sent the Son and Jesus sent the Holy Spirit. The roles are never reversed but are consistent with what Jesus told us. The Holy Spirit points us to Jesus and Jesus points us to the Father. All are worthy of praise and receive such in Scripture but only God is worthy of praise.
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So the holy spirit is an unnamed person. Haven't you ever wondered why this 'third person' has never been identified? You say they are equal yet Jesus' own words LITERALLY debunks that!

The holy spirit is the power of God...

"For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind."
But truly I am full of power by the spirit of the LORD, and of judgment, and of might, to declare unto Jacob his transgression, and to Israel his sin.

My bible says Jesus' ministry began "in the power of the Spirit."

In Luke 1:35 the Holy Spirit is identified as "the power of the Highest."

Speaking of the Holy Spirit, which would be given to His followers after His death, Jesus told them, "You shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you..." (Acts 1:8).

"And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God."

Another verses...
"How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him."

"Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost."

"Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ."
If you would do a little footwork, you would also see that to identify the holy spirit the word HE was added by translators. The interlinear words it like this, "it-shall-be-guiding" - That's correct - IT! You can't dispute it. The KJV adds and removes more than you think.


Whenever the power of the holy is present, a being is likely present. It could be the spirit of Jesus or a divine being angel. IOW - a holy being is often present to administer this POWER. This is NOT a third person of a man-made trinity.
 
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Faithfulservant said:
Now you are reaching. How can you get around baptizing in the name of the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit.
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The thinking that simply because the three are mentioned constitutes a co-equal trinity is unfounded. Even the big-shot trinitarians know that proves absolutely NOTHING!
 
Young children are protected by nursery walls and guardians from traffic and the greater reality of the world that would destroy them because they're not yet equipped to handle it -- so is man sheltered by coats of skin, within a nursery dimension, imo
 
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