Do serve God...or a 'Trinity'?

Faithfulservant said:
Romans 14:5 5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.

Colossians 16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. 17 These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.




The bible does say this you just won't acknowledge it was it doesn't confirm to your opinion.




Ok then. When He died He descended into Hades then the resurrection and then He ascended. That's my 2 cents based on scripture


You've said this and I don't agree. I don't recall posting in the Ezekiel thread.


Don't forget Ephesians 4:9.. you conveniently forgot to address this lol
9 (In saying, “He ascended,” what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower regions, the earth? 10 He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.)



J23 said it's moot not me. For me it's a foundational belief. I corrected you on who was speaking in Deut 30. The grammar used by Moses and Jesus would be different. Paul didn't write like Matthew and Mark didn't write like Peter. Jesus never used today in all of His assuredly statements. I doubt my Lord would accidentally place the word today in anything He spoke that would cause such confusion 2000 years later. You either believe Him or you don't.


I don't agree because in multiple places of Scripture we are Body Soul and Spirit. You either believe it or you don't.


in Sheol/ Hades they would know nothing of the living.


If you don't take the bible literally then why are we discussing this at all? This is my faith and I take it very seriously. I use scripture to make my conclusions you however don't like the scriptures I'm providing.


I posted the scriptures in the previous thread . I also would add the souls of the innocent in Revelation. But I'm getting weary of having to repeat myself like you are I'm sure!

Not sure why you are defending the note as an extra thought when scripture clearly proved it wrong. Remember that this is a foundational belief that I myself will defend.
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1. You and I already discussed this. Do you seriously believe that those 2 verses did away with God's holy days? That God installed these holy days, then decided that they should be done away with, but then be reinstated in His Kingdom later on? Last time we discussed this, you affirmed your belief that this was true. I don't know of any verses that ordered the halting of God's holy festivals. But you can bring this back up on that thread if you wish to go further.

2. The Bible does NOT say this. That is my point, not my opinion. I can't acknowledge something that doesn't exist.

3. As long as Hades is considered the grave, then I would basically agree. Jesus died, spent 3 days dead, and then was resurrected. And even if he did somehow go to Hell and visit Satan and all of the other Taylor Swift fans, Jesus still wasn't in paradise. So my point stands.

4. I was referencing the Ezekiel thread for your own reference. I also wasn't saying that I agreed with that statement. I was just saying that some people believe this.

5. I was really hoping that you would do some research on those verses about Ephesians. LOL... seriously? I am just going to assume you didn't even read Psalms. So in summary, the Messiah was prophesied to descend from heaven, die, and then later on ascend to heaven. Paul was assuming that his audience was familiar with the psalms. Not sure why you are so obsessed with trying to prove that Jesus went to Hell.

6. But someone adding a comma to the wrong part of a sentence would screw up the meaning of both examples of Today. Different writing styles is what we are now using as a point here? A third (my approximating opinion) of the NT is people quoting scriptures from people who had different writing styles. What does that change?

7. I already explained the meaning of "soul" in the Bible. Your point never changed that.

8. Yes, Solomon was saying that the dead are buried and know nothing. They have no clue what is going on with the living.... because they're dead. Literally what he said. Did he say that some of the dead are alive? No. Did he say that some of the dead are aware? No. He said they were all dead.

9. I already explained how I interpret the Bible... as a book. It wasn't that I didn't like your scriptures. It's that YOU didn't like mine. I gave you plenty of scriptures to prove my point and you just keep saying "I don't agree". And I know you take your beliefs seriously. But to me, it appears that you are taking opinion and trying to use scripture to back it. You know that you should prove all things. That's all I am asking for.

10. I must have missed the scriptures. Which scriptures say that Jesus went straight to heaven/paradise right after crucifixion? I can't find them. Your scripture about "innocents" in Revelations says nothing about Jesus and the thief going straight to heaven/paradise right after crucifixion.

11. I already explained my note about the thief. Is there a scripture that says he died that day?

12. Juantoo3 made a very good point. As far as salvation, none of this really matters. So take a deep breath and realize that you are NOT debating with an enemy.

5.
 
Faithfulservant said:
What's the point of this one? Different parable. I never said that Jesus didn't speak to the Pharisees just not in the parable previously referenced. Would you be confusing our thread to Rabbios question to you?


Because you forgot to read Eph 4:9? Who is taking what of context?Jesus said He spoke to His disciples .. remember about taking the bible literally and not assuming.


Don't forget Enoch. Are you calling Elisha a liar as he witnessed it.
I find it interesting that this one statement is how you are basing noone has ascended into heaven. Reading the entire text it's clear you aren't understanding what is being said

If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.[g] 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.[h]


You haven't posted a single scripture that proves anything you are saying to me.


Abraham is already in heaven that's what Jesus went to Hades for.

They weren't cast out.. in the parable they weren't let in the gates . Mind you we are all sinners.

I did prove it . You just don't accept it.
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1. You said that Jesus was talking to His disciples, not the Pharisees. So I pointed out that this was not completely true, because the Pharisees were listening to Him. Glad to see you agree. This has nothing to do with the Rabbi's question.

2. I read that entire chapter of Ephesians. I also read the original source in Psalms. Still don't see anything showing that Jesus and the thief went to paradise.

3. You mean that JOHN forgot Enoch, and Elijah (who somehow wrote a letter years after he died... something you ignored). The context of the verse is still the same. Could you please explain how the context of that verse changed John's statement? Elisha saw Elijah get taken up into the air. He saw Elijah get taken away. No dishonesty there. Research the different words used for "heaven" in the OT and you will find your answer to that one. Again, probably good for another thread. Again, doesn't claim that Jesus went to paradise after crucifixion.

4. So I DIDN'T provide any verses that defend any of my points? Hmmmm.

5. The Bible literally never says that Abraham is in heaven right now. And are you seriously going to tell me that the Bible says that the sinners are "left in the gates" and aren't thrown out?

6. Aside from a misplaced comma, you don't have any scripture that states that Jesus went to paradise immediately after His crucifixion. You even agreed to this eventually and instead started up some fascination with Jesus going to Hell. Not sure why.
 
juantoo3 said:
"Can you explain how the comma issue impacts on keeping the Ten Commandments, doing, behaving, performing "love thy neighbor as thyself?" Not as a mental exercise, rather as an essential function of day to day life?"

Look, I understand, folks have to believe / understand something, belief doesn't come in a vacuum. What one is taught, or learns, or seeks and finds, ultimately is irrelevant if that teaching is not put into service.

In my experience, and for every finger I point I have 3 pointed right back at me, folks, sincere folks, get so tied up into what they think, they forget to do.

Some say works won't get you to heaven, and all too often use that by itself to justify excluding anyone who sees things differently. D'frent strokes for d'frent folks, but that too often turns into hate.

I keep referencing Romans 2. I'm going to paraphrase, because I think a lot of folks don't internalize that teaching.

Speaking of the Jews, Paul was explaining how folks, not Christian folks, not Jewish folks, still kept G!d's commands, as it says elsewhere "written on their hearts." You've seen me write it doesn't matter what you believe, as long as you keep - doing! - G!d's Commands.

Every major culture on the world stage has a religious tradition founded or based on a set of moral guides that are essentially carbon copy of G!d's Commands, the finer points specific to the faith notwithstanding. I've argued before, while morality may be subjective, around the world all major cultures and no few minor ones keep the same basic set of morals, which points towards morality being objective (Proof of G!d?). And then add our particular cultural baggage.

I was born and raised into Christianity, and that is the basis for my morality. I also have Native American leanings, and I relate that to some great great aunt back when who was, we believe, Cherokee. There is also rumor of Seminole in my family tree. So I seek understanding on that path as well.

Ecclesiastes 12:13: Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

Fear can rightly be translated as "reverently trust." First, you gotta believe G!d exists. I've known since I began to be cognizant. I've known not with my head, but with my heart.

This thread was started by someone with a massive self-inflicted persecution complex...and I should state I am not a doctor, that is not a diagnosis...he holds that so tightly, he can't let go. I'm sorry for him, I mean him no harm, I hope things work out for him. We all make mistakes, and errors in judgment.

I guess the point I'm trying to make, is that we get so caught up in what we think others should think, that we don't get around to doing what we are supposed to do for them, or with them, or at the least what my Dad called "common human decency." Some would take advantage of that, "and because you're a Christian, you HAVE to take what I'm dishing out!" Ummm...no, we are not taught to be doormats. Turn the other cheek goes both ways. If a person meets me in anger or seeking to do violence...I am going to raise my guard. That's just common sense, and nowhere does G!d teach that a person cannot defend themselves.

But any person who meets me, civilly, politely, respectfully, I extend the same in return, no matter *what* they believe, as long as they *do* what they were morally taught to believe towards me and those in my charge.

To do otherwise, in extreme, leads to war. That's historical.
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Soooo what am I dodging again? I never said that any of this had anything to do with someone's salvation. Never judged anyone here to be a bad person.

We all love Faithful Servant, including me. But the argument here is quite simple. Did Jesus and the thief go straight to paradise after death? Apparently the answer takes more detours than a Minnesota highway in the summer.
 
Faithfulservant said:
Abraham is already in heaven that's what Jesus went to Hades for.
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But according to the scriptures of both Islam and Christianity there can be no human inhabitants of either heaven or hell until the last day resurrection and judgement when the sheep will be sorted from the goats and the souls of men assigned to either heaven or hell?

It creates contradictions.

Were Moses and Elijah especially raised to appear with Jesus on the mountain during the transfiguration of Christ? If Jesus descended into hell during the three days and nights in the tomb -- was there anyone in hell?

Or was His harrowing of hell rather a descent into the 'limbo' realm of the dead where the spirits of men await the final judgement in an unconscious state of suspended animation -- to confer the liberty of Christ upon all those who had died before He came to save the world?

What do these sorts of passages really mean? It's an attempt to wrap spiritual realities in human words. Folks get hung-up on the words. But the words are the shell of nut. Like the parables of Christ, they go on to ever deeper levels. It is part of the mystery of Christ, imo
 
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moralorel said:
Let me be specific.

The Pharisees who were criticizing Jesus were rich, were very proud of their wealth, and they looked down on those who were poor.

I wasn't trying to say that every single Pharisee who ever existed was rich and critical of the poor.
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I don't think so. They were proud of their obedience of the law. Some Pharisees were even ascetic.
 
RJM said:
What do these sorts of passages really mean? It's an attempt to wrap spiritual realities in human words. Folks get hung-up on the words. But the words are the shell of nut. Like the parables of Christ, they go on to ever deeper levels. It is part of the mystery of Christ, imo
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Yeppir...menus and meals, fingers pointing and the moon. The symbols are not the thing.
 
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talib-al-kalim said:
I don't think so. They were proud of their obedience of the law. Some Pharisees were even ascetic.
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So if you decide Jesus did not make those comments, which words of Jesus will you select and which will you reject? Or was he just wrong?
 
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moralorel said:
For salvation? Not important. Doctrine and tradition? That's another story. If one challenges both doctrine and tradition, they get what you see here.
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Every Christian denomination is a fractured challenge to doctrine and tradition.

Seriously? Arguing over a comma? Mind, there are other commas to argue over as well. How many other jots and tittles to find with a magnifying glass to argue over? How much more so arguments over fundamental issues of the faith???

The Devil is in the details.

Icons and idols, or no? G!d in substance made flesh, or an eccentric wandering Rabbi at the right place and time? Risen, or stolen and hidden? Rapture, or resurrection? And fractures splinter into sub-denoms, cults form, lines are drawn, and hatred slings across the lines. We're right, you're not - so you're going to hell, and we'll help you get there.

What is the purpose of all of this? The prosecuting attorney we know as Satan is ecstatic with the results of his handiwork.
 
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RJM said:
So if you decide Jesus did not make those comments, which words of Jesus will you select and which will you reject?
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Which words of Jesus contradict "What is hateful to you do not do to your neighbor, all the rest is commentary,"?
 
juantoo3 said:
Which words of Jesus contradict "What is hateful to you do not do to your neighbor, all the rest is commentary,"?
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Not the issue. Will you decide what Jesus said and did not say, based in whether or not you like it?

He'd surely have a go at many of the religious leaders around today, if he returned...
 
RJM said:
He'd surely have a go at many of the religious leaders around today, if he returned...
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But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea. -Matthew 18:6 KJV

Many are the ones who speak or write authoritatively at length, ad nauseum, pretending to know about matters they have no experience of.
 
talib-al-kalim said:
Which comment?
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Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean” (Matthew 23:25-26).

etc

On my phone but will provide more later if required?
 
Jews don't believe in Jesus or regard the Gospels as authentic or authorative. That is their belief, and no issue with it.
 
RJM said:
Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean” (Matthew 23:25-26).

etc

On my phone but will provide more later if required?
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I know that and many more. But it doesn't say that they were rich.
I think the main issue is in Mt 23:23-24:
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others. You blind guides, straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel!"
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We are all addressed by this admonition, to understand the most important message and give priority to the minor commands.

I'm a bit concerned about the Pharisee bashing because it hides this message. We are all not Pharisees, and not all Pharisees forgot the most important things. Hillel was a Pharisee and a great teacher.
 
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