Do serve God...or a 'Trinity'?

[RabbiO]

@moralorel - re: your post, #351, point 2. Where did you get the idea that the Pharisees were, as a group, wealthy?

 

[Faithfulservant]

1. You have stated previously that you follow the Bible literally. Show me. As nice and knowledgeable of a person that you are, you are not a follower of literal biblical texts. Anything that literally defies your religious opinion conveniently goes out the window. So show me that you literally follow the Bible.

Show me that I don't take the bible literally. I've just listed scriptures showing many times the triune nature of man as many us created in the likeness of God. I have yet to hear an argument that changes my thinking.

2. You can NOT easily argue that the comma is in the correct spot. Here's why.

Did Jesus ascend to heaven or paradise that day? Literally? Nope. No scripture will defend that stance at all. If He went to heaven or paradise he would be a liar (or someone who felt that a tomb was somehow paradise). He told Mary that He hadn't yet ascended to heaven.

On the third day He received His glorified body. In the book of Acts He appeared and disappeared at will. He didn't ascend to heaven until 40 days after His resurrection

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Yet 8 days later He told Thomas to touch the holes of His wounds as proof. So I challenge your translation as John 20:17 should read cling to me not.. the word translated “touch” is a Greek word which means “to cling to, to lay hold of.” This wasn’t just a touch; it was a grip. when Mary recognized Jesus, she immediately clung to Him. records the other women doing the same thing when they saw the resurrected Christ

Matt 28:9 And behold, Jesus met them and said, "Greetings!" And they came up and took hold of his feet and worshiped him.

John 29:17 Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’"

Jesus also described paradise. He said that the Tree of Life will be there next to the Father.

Revelation 2:7 "To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God”

And where is this tree? The New Jerusalem, which hasn't been created yet.

Revelation 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and His servants shall serve Him.

John was taken in the Spirit.. can we really use these passages to determine the present or the future? I don't understand how this is proof that Jesus didn't go to Hades ( not hell) after He died.

1 Peter 3:18 or Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit.
19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits—
20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,
21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
22 who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

Eph 4:8 Therefore it says,

“When he ascended on high he led a host of captives,
and he gave gifts to men.”[a]

9 (In saying, “He ascended,” what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower regions, the earth? 10 He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.)

3. Today? Jesus used the word with its proper meaning. We have very few examples of Jesus even using the word "today", so I think your logic here is found wanting. How many times did Jesus even use the word "today".... maybe 5? Using this logic to overturn the fact that the Bible never said Jesus went to heaven or paradise immediately after crucifixion? Maybe just move the comma.

That was my point. Why create a logic based on little evidence. Jesus was consistent He wouldn't just randomly say I tell you something today.. He would however say I tell you something.. today you will be... I can't and won't accept that idea .

But if you believe that Jesus was the God of the OT, then Jesus did use the word "today" like I said He did. When the Israelites were told of curses and blessings, God told them what would happen to them if they obeyed Him and if they disobeyed Him.

Deut. 30:16 For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to Him, and to keep His commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess. 17 But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them, 18 I declare to you TODAY that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess.

He didn't say they would die today. I doubt any Israelites were killed that day by God.

The speaker in Deuteronomy 30 was Moses not the pre incarnate Jesus.

4. I've already addressed the word "soul". The Bible literally, and I repeat, literally uses the word "soul" to mean a physical entity. It does mention humankind having a spirit. Spirit and soul are not literally the same. Literally.

That also makes no sense. To refer to a body which is a physical entity and in the same phrase say soul meaning the same thing?

5. I am quite familiar with Ecc 12:7. Solomon wrote that scripture. But he didn't believe that the dead knew of anything going on.

"For who knows what is good for a person in life, during the few and meaningless days they pass through like a shadow? Who can tell them what will happen under the sun after they are gone?"
Ecclesiastes 6:12

Well yeah.. they wouldn't know what happens under the sun if they were in Sheol. I feel you are taking the wisdom of Solomon out of context.

And...
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten” Ecclesiastes 9:5.

Doesn't sound like Solomon, a man considered to be one of the wisest men of the bible, believed that people went to heaven or paradise after death. But he acknowledged that God took back their spirit.

I feel that you are taking this out of context to prove your point.

5 For the living know that they will die, but ithe dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for jthe memory of them is forgotten. 6 Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun.

I assume you know that the same thing happened to Jesus when He died. His spirit went to God. But Jesus was still dead and said He never ascended to heaven.

I refer you back to Ephesians and 1 Peter above

6. The apostles never mentioned Jesus going to heaven or paradise immediately after crucifixion. You would think they would. But instead they say that He was dead and buried.

Once again.

I Corinthians 15:3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that He was buried, that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

Yes His body was buried.. we aren't disputing that

Note: We also don't know when the thief died. Jesus was already dead when the soldiers started breaking the thieves' legs. Unlike the thieves, Jesus was scourged which would have caused Him to lose a lot of blood before crucifixion. So that is probably why He died before them. Criminals were known to live for days after their legs were broken. So if the thief was still alive the next day... move that comma.

John 19:31-33
31 Since it was the day of Preparation, and so that the bodies would not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken and that they might be taken away. 32 So the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first, and of the other who had been crucified with him. 33 But when they came to Jesus and saw that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.

The thieves deaths were hastened. They were removed from the cross the same day Jesus was. So no I won't move that comma

 

[juantoo3]

Actually they were first added by Greeks. When the Bible was translated to English, they kept the commas in the same place. If they moved the comma back to where it belonged, they most likely would've been arrested. You can't translate a Bible to English and not keep it in agreement with church doctrine. Just ask William Tysdale.

Now I'm confused. So the commas are in the Greek, and the New Testament being quoted was written in Greek, but the commas are not in the original Greek?

How is this not contradictory?

These are the kinds of dead end arguments that polarize some and drive others away.

Can you explain how the comma issue impacts on keeping the Ten Commandments, doing, behaving, performing "love thy neighbor as thyself?" Not as a mental exercise, rather as an essential function of day to day life?

 

[juantoo3]

I am well aware that some people claim that Jesus went to Hell after crucifixion. But there isn't scriptural evidence to support this claim.

According to some there is scriptural evidence.

I'm not fussed about it, to me it is simply another point of contention to divide.

 

[Faithfulservant]

This one is easy.

1. It's a parable. It is telling a hypothetical story. Not literal.

It's referencing what happens when we die . Why would a Jesus make up some random fairy tale with no truth or hidden meaning.

2. It was a lesson for the Pharisees. They believed that their status and wealth made them righteous. In Satan's world, they were correct. But not in God's mind.

He wasn't speaking to the Pharisees. This was directed to His disciples.

16 He also said to the disciples

2. It is speaking of life when everyone is resurrected. So everyone is alive, including sinners. So the 1st and 2nd resurrections have already happened. But the 2nd death has not happened. As you see, the sinner is being warned of his eventual punishment. The resurrections easily can be their own thread. But as many figures have mentioned in the Bible, in this life everything is practically opposite. The meek inherit the Earth. Who is first originally ends up finishing last. Those who are great today will be the lowest in the resurrection. The rich man and his family have done nothing to change this. They haven't observed the Feasts or obeyed God. So they are on their way to death (or are already dead).

This is your interpretation. Not mine.

3. If the story were considered to be true and literal then it would contradict what the apostle John said:

John 3:13 "No one has ascended to heaven, but He who came down from heaven, that is the Son of Man who is in heaven."

Jesus told the story like as if it had already happened. John would have heard this story, so therefore John didn't interpret it as already happening. So neither should you.

I didn't say it was literal but the lesson is literal.

You are taking what Jesus said out of context. We know Elijah and Enoch were taken up to heaven without seeing death. Also Jacobs dream..

Genesis 28:12 And he dreamed, and behold, there was a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven. And behold, the angels of God were ascending and descending on it!

4. The rich man's fate, assuming he doesn't change, will be his eventual casting out of God's kingdom.

I don't agree with this interpretation.

"There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out" (Luke 13:28)

Taken out of context. This is the narrow door teaching and you are taking one small part out of the entire story.

 

[muhammad_isa]

It's referencing what happens when we die . Why would a Jesus make up some random fairy tale with no truth or hidden meaning..

I agree .. parables have a relevant meaning.
..and 'the sheep & the goats' is fairly clear .. that our destination after we die is dependent
on our actions and intentions.

 

[juantoo3]

I agree .. parables have a relevant meaning.
..and 'the sheep & the goats' is fairly clear .. that our destination after we die is dependent
on our actions and intentions.

Bingo.

Arguing over this and that accomplishes nothing. What we do with our beliefs is what matters. We will know more conclusively when the time comes, if it even matters at all.

 

[juantoo3]

And
καὶ

said
εἶπεν

unto him,
αὐτῷ

(definite article)
ὁ

Jesus
Ἰησοῦς

Verily
Ἀμήν

I say
λέγω

unto thee,
σοι

To day
σήμερον

with
μετ

me
ἐμοῦ

shalt thou be
ἔσῃ

in
ἐν

(definite article)
τῷ

paradise.
παραδείσῳ

Luke 23:43 Interlinear

To my way of thinking, whether it was "today" or some future moment in time, the repentant thief would be going home. And that is the important bottom line. Whether today, tomorrow, or when the dead are raised to stand before the Throne, it makes no difference if one still arrives at "paradise."

 

[talib-al-kalim]

No.

I'm saying that the Bible literally equates a soul with a physical body. So your soul dies. The immortal soul creed is not biblical and is a Greek religious concept

However, if you replace the word "soul" with "spirit", then I think you and I are much closer to an agreement.

Lk 1:46 (Magnificat of Mary) contains
Greek ψυχή,
Latin Vulgata anima,
English soul
Arabic Bible روح (usually translates spirit)
The parallel 1Samuel 2:1 (Magnificat of Hannah) contains
Hebrew לִבִּי֙
Greek LXX καρδία
Latin Vulgata cor
English heart

The word soul doesn't exist in Semitic languages. The concept of Anima is Roman, not even Greek.
We have to look for different expressions in Hebrew, Arabic or Greek.

 

[moralorel]

Lk 1:46 (Magnificat of Mary) contains
Greek ψυχή,
Latin Vulgata anima,
English soul
Arabic Bible روح (usually translates spirit)
The parallel 1Samuel 2:1 (Magnificat of Hannah) contains
Hebrew לִבִּי֙
Greek LXX καρδία
Latin Vulgata cor
English heart

The word soul doesn't exist in Semitic languages. The concept of Anima is Roman, not even Greek.
We have to look for different expressions in Hebrew, Arabic or Greek.

A true translation or even conception of soul would not have existed at the time of the original writings, so yes you are correct.

 

[moralorel]

@moralorel - re: your post, #351, point 2. Where did you get the idea that the Pharisees were, as a group, wealthy?

Let me be specific.

The Pharisees who were criticizing Jesus were rich, were very proud of their wealth, and they looked down on those who were poor.

I wasn't trying to say that every single Pharisee who ever existed was rich and critical of the poor.

 

[moralorel]

Show me that I don't take the bible literally. I've just listed scriptures showing many times the triune nature of man as many us created in the likeness of God. I have yet to hear an argument that changes my thinking.

On the third day He received His glorified body. In the book of Acts He appeared and disappeared at will. He didn't ascend to heaven until 40 days after His resurrection


Yet 8 days later He told Thomas to touch the holes of His wounds as proof. So I challenge your translation as John 20:17 should read cling to me not.. the word translated “touch” is a Greek word which means “to cling to, to lay hold of.” This wasn’t just a touch; it was a grip. when Mary recognized Jesus, she immediately clung to Him. records the other women doing the same thing when they saw the resurrected Christ

Matt 28:9 And behold, Jesus met them and said, "Greetings!" And they came up and took hold of his feet and worshiped him.

John 29:17 Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’"

John was taken in the Spirit.. can we really use these passages to determine the present or the future? I don't understand how this is proof that Jesus didn't go to Hades ( not hell) after He died.

1 Peter 3:18 or Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit.
19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits—
20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,
21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
22 who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

Eph 4:8 Therefore it says,

“When he ascended on high he led a host of captives,
and he gave gifts to men.”[a]

9 (In saying, “He ascended,” what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower regions, the earth? 10 He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.)



That was my point. Why create a logic based on little evidence. Jesus was consistent He wouldn't just randomly say I tell you something today.. He would however say I tell you something.. today you will be... I can't and won't accept that idea .


The speaker in Deuteronomy 30 was Moses not the pre incarnate Jesus.


That also makes no sense. To refer to a body which is a physical entity and in the same phrase say soul meaning the same thing?


Well yeah.. they wouldn't know what happens under the sun if they were in Sheol. I feel you are taking the wisdom of Solomon out of context.


I feel that you are taking this out of context to prove your point.

5 For the living know that they will die, but ithe dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for jthe memory of them is forgotten. 6 Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun.

I refer you back to Ephesians and 1 Peter above


Once again.


Yes His body was buried.. we aren't disputing that


John 19:31-33
31 Since it was the day of Preparation, and so that the bodies would not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken and that they might be taken away. 32 So the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first, and of the other who had been crucified with him. 33 But when they came to Jesus and saw that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.

The thieves deaths were hastened. They were removed from the cross the same day Jesus was. So no I won't move that comma

1. On your post about your faith being literal, I brought up the feast of the Lord. You said you don't observe them, even though you couldn't provide scripture that stated that the feasts were done away with. You can feel free to reply to that matter on that thread. I'll meet you there.

You are also trying to push this belief that people go to heaven/paradise right after death. But the Bible literally does not say this. But it literally tells us over and over that we haven't ascended to heaven.

2. So you agree? Jesus didn't ascend to heaven right away. So why are we even debating? Why are you not moving the comma?

3. My point was that Jesus said that He had not yet ascended. You seem to agree, so once again why are we debating about this? If you want to talk about Jesus and the wave sheaf offering, feel free to start a new thread for that matter. We're already off subject seeing as this thread is all about the trinity. I already gave my two cents on that matter.

4. It all correlates with what Solomon said. You die. Your spirit returns to God, but you're still dead and know nothing. Jesus's spirit went to God, but He was dead just like any human. He wasn't watching from heaven or paradise. He was dead and buried. Some people assume that God holds onto an individual's spirit so that He has a blueprint for resurrecting that person. Spirit is also translated as wind or breath, and ironically God says He will breathe on the dead to bring them back to life (We had this discussion on the recent Ezekiel thread). But of course, this belief is not literal. I don't know if the Bible tells us what God does with the dead individual's spirit.

As for Ephesians 4:8, Paul was directly quoting Psalm 68:18. Not sure what this has to do with my claim. It's a prophecy for the future. I must be missing something because I don't see how any of this proves that Jesus and the thief went to heaven that day.

5. So we agree about the word today? Not sure where you're going with this. You based your claim about "today' on your belief that Jesus never used the word in that manner before. But now you agree that the point is moot. That's what I was saying.

6. He was giving God's message. If he was conversing with Jesus, then he was conveying his message. Either way, I did show you an example of one of the highest biblical prophets using "today" in the manner I described. And he was conveying, might have even been quoting, the words of Jesus. If not, they were words of the Father. Put a comma in the same place as during the crucifixion, and you get a lot of dead people in one day.

7. It makes perfect sense. The word translated to "soul" is the same thing as the physical body. We just literally talked about the literal meaning of "soul" in the Bible. Literally.

8. Um, yeah. Solomon said that they were buried and dead. What am I taking out of context? Dead. Buried. Know nothing.

9. Yep, once again. Dead. Buried. Know nothing. Literally is saying that. I'm not using scripture to defend a belief. I'm using scripture to form a conclusion. If I claimed that I followed the Bible literally, that is what I would do.

10. My point still stands. Show me scripture that states that Jesus immediately went to "paradise' immediately after death. You haven't. Not one scripture.

11. I brought up the thief's death timeline as an added note. I'm not basing any argument on it. I would assume he died that day or evening. But I was just adding a "note" for an extra thought. There is absolutely nothing biblical to base this note on, just historical research.

 

[moralorel]

Now I'm confused. So the commas are in the Greek, and the New Testament being quoted was written in Greek, but the commas are not in the original Greek?

How is this not contradictory?

These are the kinds of dead end arguments that polarize some and drive others away.

Can you explain how the comma issue impacts on keeping the Ten Commandments, doing, behaving, performing "love thy neighbor as thyself?" Not as a mental exercise, rather as an essential function of day to day life?

The Greeks were the first to add the comma to scripture. That is what I'm saying. So let me break this down for you. There is absolutely no contradiction.

During Jesus's lifetime Greeks didn't use commas.

Centuries later Greeks started using commas.

Greeks who were copying the Bible then ADDED commas.

No contradiction.

In 1929 an American invented sunglasses.

In 1937 an American invented polarization for sunglasses.

Why weren't the original sunglasses polarized? The same reason why commas weren't used previously.... they hadn't been invented.

 

[moralorel]

According to some there is scriptural evidence.

I'm not fussed about it, to me it is simply another point of contention to divide.

There does not exist a scripture that Jesus went down to Hell and hung out for 3 days. Or even for 5 minutes. I see the scriptures that are being cherry picked, but they are not in context not do they literally say that Jesus hung out in Hell. And if they did, then unless Hell is paradise, that comma has to move. So it doesn't affect my original point one bit.

 

[juantoo3]

There does not exist a scripture that Jesus went down to Hell and hung out for 3 days. Or even for 5 minutes. I see the scriptures that are being cherry picked, but they are not in context not do they literally say that Jesus hung out in Hell. And if they did, then unless Hell is paradise, that comma has to move. So it doesn't affect my original point one bit.

If that's what works for you, and helps you to treat others as you wish to be treated, then I am not one to argue with it.

Nice dodge on the other post.

 

[Faithfulservant]

1. On your post about your faith being literal, I brought up the feast of the Lord. You said you don't observe them, even though you couldn't provide scripture that stated that the feasts were done away with. You can feel free to reply to that matter on that thread. I'll meet you there.

Romans 14:5 5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.

Colossians 16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. 17 These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.

You are also trying to push this belief that people go to heaven/paradise right after death. But the Bible literally does not say this. But it literally tells us over and over that we haven't ascended to heaven.

The bible does say this you just won't acknowledge it was it doesn't confirm to your opinion.

3. My point was that Jesus said that He had not yet ascended. You seem to agree, so once again why are we debating about this? If you want to talk about Jesus and the wave sheaf offering, feel free to start a new thread for that matter. We're already off subject seeing as this thread is all about the trinity. I already gave my two cents on that matter.

Ok then. When He died He descended into Hades then the resurrection and then He ascended. That's my 2 cents based on scripture

4. It all correlates with what Solomon said. You die. Your spirit returns to God, but you're still dead and know nothing. Jesus's spirit went to God, but He was dead just like any human. He wasn't watching from heaven or paradise. He was dead and buried. Some people assume that God holds onto an individual's spirit so that He has a blueprint for resurrecting that person. Spirit is also translated as wind or breath, and ironically God says He will breathe on the dead to bring them back to life (We had this discussion on the recent Ezekiel thread). But of course, this belief is not literal. I don't know if the Bible tells us what God does with the dead individual's spirit.

You've said this and I don't agree. I don't recall posting in the Ezekiel thread.

As for Ephesians 4:8, Paul was directly quoting Psalm 68:18. Not sure what this has to do with my claim. It's a prophecy for the future. I must be missing something because I don't see how any of this proves that Jesus and the thief went to heaven that day.

Don't forget Ephesians 4:9.. you conveniently forgot to address this lol
9 (In saying, “He ascended,” what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower regions, the earth? 10 He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.)

5. So we agree about the word today? Not sure where you're going with this. You based your claim about "today' on your belief that Jesus never used the word in that manner before. But now you agree that the point is moot. That's what I was saying.

J23 said it's moot not me. For me it's a foundational belief. I corrected you on who was speaking in Deut 30. The grammar used by Moses and Jesus would be different. Paul didn't write like Matthew and Mark didn't write like Peter. Jesus never used today in all of His assuredly statements. I doubt my Lord would accidentally place the word today in anything He spoke that would cause such confusion 2000 years later. You either believe Him or you don't.

7. It makes perfect sense. The word translated to "soul" is the same thing as the physical body. We just literally talked about the literal meaning of "soul" in the Bible. Literally.

I don't agree because in multiple places of Scripture we are Body Soul and Spirit. You either believe it or you don't.

8. Um, yeah. Solomon said that they were buried and dead. What am I taking out of context? Dead. Buried. Know nothing.

in Sheol/ Hades they would know nothing of the living.

9. Yep, once again. Dead. Buried. Know nothing. Literally is saying that. I'm not using scripture to defend a belief. I'm using scripture to form a conclusion. If I claimed that I followed the Bible literally, that is what I would do.

If you don't take the bible literally then why are we discussing this at all? This is my faith and I take it very seriously. I use scripture to make my conclusions you however don't like the scriptures I'm providing.

10. My point still stands. Show me scripture that states that Jesus immediately went to "paradise' immediately after death. You haven't. Not one scripture.

I posted the scriptures in the previous thread . I also would add the souls of the innocent in Revelation. But I'm getting weary of having to repeat myself like you are I'm sure!

11. I brought up the thief's death timeline as an added note. I'm not basing any argument on it. I would assume he died that day or evening. But I was just adding a "note" for an extra thought. There is absolutely nothing biblical to base this note on, just historical research.

Not sure why you are defending the note as an extra thought when scripture clearly proved it wrong. Remember that this is a foundational belief that I myself will defend.

 

[moralorel]

It's referencing what happens when we die . Why would a Jesus make up some random fairy tale with no truth or hidden meaning.

He wasn't speaking to the Pharisees. This was directed to His disciples.

16 He also said to the disciples



This is your interpretation. Not mine.


I didn't say it was literal but the lesson is literal.

You are taking what Jesus said out of context. We know Elijah and Enoch were taken up to heaven without seeing death. Also Jacobs dream..

Genesis 28:12 And he dreamed, and behold, there was a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven. And behold, the angels of God were ascending and descending on it!

I don't agree with this interpretation.

Taken out of context. This is the narrow door teaching and you are taking one small part out of the entire story.

1. Parable ≠ fairy tale.
2. Luke 16:14 The Pharisees, who were lovers of money, heard all these things, and they ridiculed him. 15 And He said to them, “You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is exalted among men is an abomination in the sight of God.

The Pharisees were there listening to what He had to say.
3. Now you are accusing me of doing what you are actually doing... taking verses out of context. Most of our debate has been me trying to put your examples into context. Ephesians is a good example of that.

4. John 3:13 is where John said that no one has ascended to heaven. So are you calling John a liar? I'll listen to him over you. If Elijah died and went to heaven, it's odd that he wrote a letter years later (2 Chronicles 21:12-15). Perhaps another thread is needed for that one too.

5. "I don't agree" is not an argument. If you can't prove your point and also can't prove my point to be incorrect, your opinion doesn't matter. If you claim to believe the Bible literally, then you should be able to literally prove your point. You have not.

6. I didn't take anything out of context. Are you saying that Abraham won't be in the Kingdom of God? Are you saying that sinners won't be cast out? It's quite literal that my claim is based on scripture.

7. You have yet to stay on point nor prove your point. You claim that Jesus and the thief went to paradise/heaven that very day of crucifixion. Prove it. You haven't.

 

[moralorel]

If that's what works for you, and helps you to treat others as you wish to be treated, then I am not one to argue with it.

Nice dodge on the other post.

It's not about me. What did I dodge?

 

[Faithfulservant]

1. Parable ≠ fairy tale.
2. Luke 16:14 The Pharisees, who were lovers of money, heard all these things, and they ridiculed him. 15 And He said to them, “You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is exalted among men is an abomination in the sight of God.

What's the point of this one? Different parable. I never said that Jesus didn't speak to the Pharisees just not in the parable previously referenced. Would you be confusing our thread to Rabbios question to you?

The Pharisees were there listening to what He had to say.
3. Now you are accusing me of doing what you are actually doing... taking verses out of context. Most of our debate has been me trying to put your examples into context. Ephesians is a good example of that.

Because you forgot to read Eph 4:9? Who is taking what of context?Jesus said He spoke to His disciples .. remember about taking the bible literally and not assuming.

4. John 3:13 is where John said that no one has ascended to heaven. So are you calling John a liar? I'll listen to him over you. If Elijah died and went to heaven, it's odd that he wrote a letter years later (2 Chronicles 21:12-15). Perhaps another thread is needed for that one too.

Don't forget Enoch. Are you calling Elisha a liar as he witnessed it.
I find it interesting that this one statement is how you are basing noone has ascended into heaven. Reading the entire text it's clear you aren't understanding what is being said

If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.[g] 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.[h]

5. "I don't agree" is not an argument. If you can't prove your point and also can't prove my point to be incorrect, your opinion doesn't matter. If you claim to believe the Bible literally, then you should be able to literally prove your point. You have not.

You haven't posted a single scripture that proves anything you are saying to me.

6. I didn't take anything out of context. Are you saying that Abraham won't be in the Kingdom of God? Are you saying that sinners won't be cast out? It's quite literal that my claim is based on scripture.

Abraham is already in heaven that's what Jesus went to Hades for.

They weren't cast out.. in the parable they weren't let in the gates . Mind you we are all sinners.

7. You have yet to stay on point nor prove your point. You claim that Jesus and the thief went to paradise/heaven that very day of crucifixion. Prove it. You haven't.

I did prove it . You just don't accept it.

 

[juantoo3]

It's not about me. What did I dodge?

"Can you explain how the comma issue impacts on keeping the Ten Commandments, doing, behaving, performing "love thy neighbor as thyself?" Not as a mental exercise, rather as an essential function of day to day life?"

Look, I understand, folks have to believe / understand something, belief doesn't come in a vacuum. What one is taught, or learns, or seeks and finds, ultimately is irrelevant if that teaching is not put into service.

In my experience, and for every finger I point I have 3 pointed right back at me, folks, sincere folks, get so tied up into what they think, they forget to do.

Some say works won't get you to heaven, and all too often use that by itself to justify excluding anyone who sees things differently. D'frent strokes for d'frent folks, but that too often turns into hate.

I keep referencing Romans 2. I'm going to paraphrase, because I think a lot of folks don't internalize that teaching.

Speaking of the Jews, Paul was explaining how folks, not Christian folks, not Jewish folks, still kept G!d's commands, as it says elsewhere "written on their hearts." You've seen me write it doesn't matter what you believe, as long as you keep - doing! - G!d's Commands.

Every major culture on the world stage has a religious tradition founded or based on a set of moral guides that are essentially carbon copy of G!d's Commands, the finer points specific to the faith notwithstanding. I've argued before, while morality may be subjective, around the world all major cultures and no few minor ones keep the same basic set of morals, which points towards morality being objective (Proof of G!d?). And then add our particular cultural baggage.

I was born and raised into Christianity, and that is the basis for my morality. I also have Native American leanings, and I relate that to some great great aunt back when who was, we believe, Cherokee. There is also rumor of Seminole in my family tree. So I seek understanding on that path as well.

Ecclesiastes 12:13: Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

Fear can rightly be translated as "reverently trust." First, you gotta believe G!d exists. I've known since I began to be cognizant. I've known not with my head, but with my heart.

This thread was started by someone with a massive self-inflicted persecution complex...and I should state I am not a doctor, that is not a diagnosis...he holds that so tightly, he can't let go. I'm sorry for him, I mean him no harm, I hope things work out for him. We all make mistakes, and errors in judgment.

I guess the point I'm trying to make, is that we get so caught up in what we think others should think, that we don't get around to doing what we are supposed to do for them, or with them, or at the least what my Dad called "common human decency." Some would take advantage of that, "and because you're a Christian, you HAVE to take what I'm dishing out!" Ummm...no, we are not taught to be doormats. Turn the other cheek goes both ways. If a person meets me in anger or seeking to do violence...I am going to raise my guard. That's just common sense, and nowhere does G!d teach that a person cannot defend themselves.

But any person who meets me, civilly, politely, respectfully, I extend the same in return, no matter *what* they believe, as long as they *do* what they were morally taught to believe towards me and those in my charge.

To do otherwise, in extreme, leads to war. That's historical.