Absolute Truth

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Lol I'm not going even going to try to tear this down. You are taking one sentence out of an entire chapter and creating a falsehood. The 70th week of Daniel doesn't start until a peace treaty is signed with Israel... Jews didn't return to their home until 1948.

One must not laugh at the plausible explanations, but they should have the courage to discuss.

The Edict of Toleration, dated 1844 opened the door for the Jews ro return, it was seen as a fulfillment of Prophecy by many in that age.

Edict of Toleration (1844) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Amazing, another 1844 coincidence.

Regards Tony

 

[TheLightWithin]

AH1260 means 1844. That's the year Ali Muhammad declared himself the Bab, which is what he was referring to in his comment.

And the reference to William Miller was the SDA movement in the US.
Interestingly Joseph Smith of the LDS movement was a bit earlier.
How does that fit in? (does anybody have theories on that?)

 

[Aupmanyav]

The outcome is to embrace God in all God given Names.
That does not include false prophets.

What if there are more than one and Goddesses too?
Who certifies that? The Bahais? What if Bahaollah made a story with the 'Heavenly maiden'?

 

[Aupmanyav]

The Edict of Toleration, dated 1844 opened the door for the Jews ro return, it was seen as a fulfillment of Prophecy by many in that age.

Many Bahai proselytizers, those who could see the Emperor's new clothes.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

And the reference to William Miller was the SDA movement in the US.
Interestingly Joseph Smith of the LDS movement was a bit earlier.
How does that fit in?

Personally I see that the coming of a Messenger reflects the Dawn of a new day. There are always a few up to meet the dawn in the darkness of the night as the light is approaching, as the light gets closer a few more are up and awaiting the dawn, some get inspired by the light, and are not aware that the inspiration comes from the Sun and not from themselves. I see Joseph Smith was most likely inspired, but did not receive a direct Revelation. There is actually quite a bit offered on this topic.

There were many waiting around the World and even before the Birth of the Bab and Baha'u'llah there was people up prior to dawn full of expectation of the imminent rise of the Sun.

There was a branch of Islam that was teaching that the Day was soon to dawn. Sheikh Ahmad was the head followed by Sayyid Kazim Rashti.

Shaykh Ahmad - Bahaipedia, an encyclopedia about the Bahá’í Faith

bahaipedia.org

Siyyid Kazim Rashti – Bahai Chronicles

bahaichronicles.org

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

What if there are more than one and Goddesses too?
Who certifies that? The Bahais? What if Bahaollah made a story with the 'Heavenly maiden'?

We all get to choose.

Regards Tony

 

[RJM]

The LOL emoji used as an insult. I see that tactic used far too often.

One wonders why people are not attracted to forum discussions.

Regards Tony

You have too much invested Tony to ever accept that people who believe that Donald Trump or Amadiyya Mirza Ghulam Ahmad are the new messiah have as much ability to find Biblical authority for their guy as you for yours -- from the New Testament and Daniel or Revelation -- by manipulating and cherry-picking the parts that suit and rejecting or ignoring what does not.

Nothing will ever get through your iron-clad certainty. That's your choice. But attempts to find justification for a new Christ from Christian scripture are a non- starter by definition, whatever claim of outdated doctrine and seeing with new eyes.

It's not the evidence you believe it to be. However there's no point going on because your own new eyes will never see anything but what they want to see -- that Baha'u'llah's claim is genuine and binding upon the whole of humanity for nearly a thousand years ahead.

The point is: if so, let it be. Let it happen. Relax and let God take over. Let Baha'u'llah stand on his own legs. Why spend so much time in Christian scripture trying to make it say the opposite of what it does say about Jesus the Christ? It is certainly not the way to bring many to your way of thinking, imo

 

[RJM]

It's not about your own Baha'i belief, but the need to convince Christians to adopt it -- that Baha'u'llah as the new Christ, not just equal to Jesus, but in a higher station as the Father -- is nothing they should have a problem with and compatible with their holy scripture.

I cannot speak for other faiths.

Certainly you have no cause to feel aggrieved or insulted that they take umbrage.

Anyway ... it just goes round and around

 

[talib-al-kalim]

Interesting thought, good to share ideas on. Faith can become certitude, to me it enables action. Hope does not seem to be a path to certitude, it is like a longing, it does not foster action. Maybe certitude could be our relative truth.

Early Martyrs of a God given Faith, in a certitude of Faith in the Messengers, give their lives for the promises given by the Messengers. So is there any hope there?

Regards Tony

Definitely, hope plays a significant role for anyone who takes disadvantages for himself, up to sacrificing the own life.
- Hope on Jannah
- Hope that the Kingdom of God on earth may grow
- Hope of overcoming evil with good
- Hope to encourage others to resist the evil

 

[talib-al-kalim]

Another great prophecy, thanks for posting. Notice the Great and Dreadful Day of the Lord, can also be considered as a Woe.

I found some interesting thoughts on that passage in the Book "Thief in the Night".

The research was on the Dark Day of 1780 and I quote a section by William Sears.

"The event was so unique that it was placed in the 1883 edition of Webster’s Unabridged Dictionary, as follows: “The Dark Day, 19 May 1780—so called on account of a remarkable darkness on that day extending all over New England … The true cause of this remarkable phenomenon is not known.” In his Collections for the Massachusetts Historical Society 1792, Samuel Tenny writes: “This gross darkness held till about one o’clock, although the moon had filled but the day before.”
Uriah Smith, writing of Tenny’s statement says: “This statement respecting the phase of the moon proves the impossibility of an eclipse of the sun at that time. Whenever on this memorable night the moon did appear, as at times it did, it had … the appearance of blood.” Many of the scholars made much of the uniqueness of this event, pointing out that it was not a natural eclipse of the sun—but a sudden darkening of the sky, with the moon having the appearance of blood. The more conservative scholars explained that it did not matter whether the happening was a natural one or a mysterious one. The important thing was that the sun was darkened and the moon turned into blood. What caused it was of no importance they said. Many explanations were advanced for this phenomenon, but the millennial scholars were at least agreed that it was the fulfilment of the prophecy which was important, and not the manner it which it came to pass. Some protested that the ‘dark day’ was not seen by the whole world. Others replied that the ‘Star of Bethlehem’ was seen only in the Middle East, and that half the world is dark each day—how could all see it at once? The excitement and debates were vigorous. Excitement over Christ’s return grew in ratio to the intensity of the disputes..."

Another interesting fact is that in Persia there was already Scholars who were teaching that the promises were about to be fulfilled. In America William Miller prediction for 1844 was also just about to be realised.

There is much, much more. Happy to keep linking these back to scripture.

Regards Tony

There have been many who saw the signs of the end of time, but time continues...
How can we know if even Jesus didn't?
Maybe, the sudden end of time is even a myth (i.e. something that is not literally true but helps to act positively): be prepared at any time, do well wherever you are, in the precise moment, and do not give up, but be confident that your mistakes can be forgiven...

 

[Faithfulservant]

I've decided to try to understand where you are coming from because I think it might be to humanize you as other than a mouthpiece for your religion. I know nothing about you other than what you say about your religion and maybe that's my problem.

I looked up Baha'i from a respected source for my faith and found this. #9 was interesting to me.

The core doctrines of the Baha'i faith can be attractive in their simplicity:

1) Adoration of one God and the reconciliation of all major religions.
2) Appreciation of the diversity and morality of the human family and the elimination of all prejudice.
3) The establishment of world peace, equality of women and men, and universal education.
4) Cooperation between Science and Religion in the individual’s search for truth.
To these may be added certain implicit beliefs and practices:
5) A Universal Auxillary Language.
6) Universal Weights and Measures.
7) God who is himself unknowable nevertheless reveals himself through manifestations.
8) These manifestations are a kind of progressive revelation.
9) No proselytizing (aggressive witnessing).
10) The study of different Scriptures besides simply Baha'i books.
11) Prayer and worship is obligatory and much of that according to specific instructions.

For a fuller description

What is the Baha'i faith? | GotQuestions.org

What is the Baha'i faith / Bahaism? What are the core beliefs of the Baha'i faith?

www.gotquestions.org

 

[RJM]

Baha'u'llah the Christ and the Baha'i House of Justice laying down the law for all humanity for 1000 years. How could a reasonable person reasonably have a problem?

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

The point is: if so, let it be. Let it happen. Relax and let God take over. Let Baha'u'llah stand on his own legs. Why spend so much time in Christian scripture trying to make it say the opposite of what it does say about Jesus the Christ? It is certainly not the way to bring many to your way of thinking, imo

Did the early Christains go out to all Nations and spread the Word, or did they Just let Jesus stand on His own legs? What the Bible says about this, is found in the Baha'i Writings.

The most important way would be this passage.

Hebrews 12:14 Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.

If one searches the Gospels about the obligation to share the Word, there is many passages to consider.

Mark 16:15-16 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage —with great patience and careful instruction.

Mark 16:15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

There have been many who saw the signs of the end of time, but time continues...
How can we know if even Jesus didn't?
Maybe, the sudden end of time is even a myth (i.e. something that is not literally true but helps to act positively): be prepared at any time, do well wherever you are, in the precise moment, and do not give up, but be confident that your mistakes can be forgiven...

Yes it is not a sudden occurrence, the end of times, or ages, is the dawn of a New Message. History has shown that not all embrace the New Message from God. There are many that still do not embrace Muhammad, who brought a new day of God in AD622.

I do suspect we will see a global event that will shake the limbs of mankind, how else are we going to unite as one people on one planet, if it is not through immense suffering? We have had years to do it peacefully, yet we still choose war, tyranny and gross materialism.

It may now be that the many dire Biblical warnings of the "Great and Dreadful Day of the Lord" will be seen to have unfolded and still unfolding, as nothing but the hand of God will change the error of our ways.

Regards Tony

 

[RJM]

Did the early Christains go out to all Nations and spread the Word, or did they Just let Jesus stand on His own legs? What the Bible says about this, is found in the Baha'i Writings.

The most important way would be this passage.

Hebrews 12:14 Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.

If one searches the Gospels about the obligation to share the Word, there is many passages to consider.

Mark 16:15-16 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage —with great patience and careful instruction.

Mark 16:15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.

Regards Tony

Point I'm making is STOP IMITATING THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION AND ABUSING THE CHRISTIAN SCRIPTURE AND STAND ON YOUR OWN LEGS -- don't you get it?

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

I've decided to try to understand where you are coming from because I think it might be to humanize you as other than a mouthpiece for your religion. I know nothing about you other than what you say about your religion and maybe that's my problem.

I looked up Baha'i from a respected source for my faith and found this. #9 was interesting to me.

The core doctrines of the Baha'i faith can be attractive in their simplicity:

1) Adoration of one God and the reconciliation of all major religions.
2) Appreciation of the diversity and morality of the human family and the elimination of all prejudice.
3) The establishment of world peace, equality of women and men, and universal education.
4) Cooperation between Science and Religion in the individual’s search for truth.
To these may be added certain implicit beliefs and practices:
5) A Universal Auxillary Language.
6) Universal Weights and Measures.
7) God who is himself unknowable nevertheless reveals himself through manifestations.
8) These manifestations are a kind of progressive revelation.
9) No proselytizing (aggressive witnessing).
10) The study of different Scriptures besides simply Baha'i books.
11) Prayer and worship is obligatory and much of that according to specific instructions.

For a fuller description

What is the Baha'i faith? | GotQuestions.org

What is the Baha'i faith / Bahaism? What are the core beliefs of the Baha'i faith?

www.gotquestions.org

Good on you Faithfulservant. My wife knows how you feel. I have always been a black and white let's get to the point type of person. My Christian Mother, God bless her soul, said I was always on the go, always a handful, always a bull at the gate. They both love me though, thank God for that.

I am very impatient person, God knows that negative virtue has its good times and usefulness, but mostly it gets me in trouble. I do not seem to be able to suppress the urgency of getting the Job done, though age has brought greater procrastination.

Your number 9 is kind and I would offer applicable. The Baha'i Writings have given a definition to what is a law in the Baha'i Faith, which is No proselytizing which is a difficult line to determine. This is a snippet from the guidance from the Universal House of Justice. "Proselytizing implies bringing undue pressure to bear upon someone to change his Faith. It is also usually understood to imply the making of threats or the offering of material benefits as an inducement to conversion.."

The challenge is, introducing topics and replies on an open forum. One is not able to control who chooses to read and how they will respond.

I think it is not unreasonable to assume, that if the Baha'i Faith starts to be embraced by the multitudes, that all the conflicting topics will eventually be raised.

I personally do not want any conflict, but at the same time I know I am a bull at the gate.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Point I'm making is STOP IMITATING THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION AND ABUSING THE CHRISTIAN SCRIPTURE AND STAND ON YOUR OWN LEGS -- don't you get it?

Wheras I see it is not abuse, but the Love of What was from Jesus the Christ, I see it is embracing the Essence of those teachings.

We can agree to disagree, but I stand before you and turn the other cheek.

Regards Tony

 

[Modesty]

Point I'm making is STOP IMITATING THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION AND ABUSING THE CHRISTIAN SCRIPTURE AND STAND ON YOUR OWN LEGS -- don't you get it?

I don't think this is an issue that you'll ever resolve with him. Baha'i have their interpretation of Christian, Muslim, etc. scriptures and they kind of rely on that interpretation to back up their own beliefs. I do understand why you're getting irritated though.

 

[Modesty]

I looked up Baha'i from a respected source for my faith and found this

The former Catholic in me isn't a huge fan of GotQuestions but this part: "the world’s religions are too varied and too fundamentally different to be reconciled. Given that the world’s religions obviously teach and practice contrary things, the burden is on the Baha'i to salvage the world’s major religions while dismantling almost everything foundational to those religions" is spot on. I don't think this applies just to Baha'i though, a lot of new religions/spiritualities do this unfortunately.

 

[RJM]

I don't think this is an issue that you'll ever resolve with him. Baha'i have their interpretation of Christian, Muslim, etc. scriptures and they kind of rely on that interpretation to back up their own beliefs. I do understand why you're getting irritated though.

Thanks Midesty, That actually does make me feel better about losing it here in public, lol

He thinks he's making converts by using IO as a soapbox, but in fact it is showing everyone how empty of any original truth this new Jesus wannabe messiah really is -- and the blind irony of trying to use Christian scripture to back it up, imo

However I'm not going to let my peace be disturbed by this Orwellian doublespeak or continue to provide the reaction he needs to play the martyr. It just becomes a repeating circle from now on, so ...