Absolute Truth

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
Thanks for the input, that is great.

I think one day we will all decide to sit down and talk about it, free of prejudices, so who know what that consultation will bring about.

Regards Tony
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Hmmm :>)....I should have put the word 'rhetorically' after the question.
ETA
My point was that the disagreements about messengers seem to be a big stumbling block to discussions about truth/peace.
 
Would anyone want the truth as it is? Or would the truth that just sounds 'good enough' be preferred?

What about the potential truth that we are a species of ape, but also the only animal that can question existing reality and imagine alternative ones? (Even chimps that were taught ASL could answer questions but never made any.) That we also had the skill of communication to bring imagined ideas to be understood by others of our species? And that aided by them or solely by ourselves , we were able to bring those ideas into realization in the shared world? Either as objects created by our limbs directly or indirectly, and as beliefs that we can agree to share and follow or to wage war on varying levels, with others?

After all, in the case of human conversation, isn't it basically a human using their physical body to say something and then seeing if another human agrees/disagrees/questions it?
 
Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
The source is from the Baha'i Writings.

"..Thus hath Muḥammad, the Point of the Qur’án, revealed: “I am all the Prophets.” Likewise, He saith: “I am the first Adam, Noah, Moses, and Jesus.” Similar statements have been made by Imám ‘Alí. Sayings such as these, which indicate the essential unity of those Exponents of Oneness, have also emanated from the Channels of God’s immortal utterance, and the Treasuries of the gems of Divine knowledge, and have been recorded in the Scriptures...."


Also in the Kitab-i-iqan pages 162-164

" ...how many are those who, through failure to understand its meaning, have allowed the term "Seal of the Prophets" to obscure their understanding, and deprive them of the grace of all His manifold bounties! Hath not Muhammad, Himself, declared: "I am all the Prophets?" Hath He not said as We have already mentioned: "I am Adam, Noah, Moses, and Jesus?" Why should Muhammad, that immortal Beauty, Who hath said: "I am the first Adam" be incapable of saying also: "I am the last Adam"? For even as He regarded Himself to be the "First of the Prophets" - that is Adam - in like manner, the "Seal of the Prophets" is also applicable unto that Divine Beauty. It is admittedly obvious that being the "First of the Prophets," He likewise is their "Seal."

This topic requires an extensive exploration of Hadith.

Regards Tony
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But if all arguments are based on fabricated hadith, it has no value.
 
It's my job to keep tabs on comments on the forums, and to point out @Tony Bristow-Stagg proselytizing here on an interfaith website that unless everyone believes that Baha'u'llah has laid down absolute truth for all mankind for 800 years into the future, that they reject Jesus Christ (or Muhammad, or Moses or Krishna, etc)

The concept is, if we reject one of God's Messengers, we reject them all, inclusive of Jesus
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RJM said:
It's my job to keep tabs on comments on the forums, and to point out @Tony Bristow-Stagg proselytizing here on an interfaith website that unless everyone believes that Baha'u'llah has laid down absolute truth for all mankind for 800 years into the future, they reject Jesus Christ (or Muhammad, or Moses or Krishna, etc)


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I have noticed over my years online that super-zealots of various groups actually like being severely criticised, even banned. In their own minds it makes them a martyr.
 
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Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
The concept is, if we reject one of God's Messengers, we reject them all, inclusive of Jesus. If this is the apex of our knowledge, Is this a position one would want to maintain?

It's worth pursuing, that is, the oneness of the Messengers, if it is the foundation to the unity of humanity.
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I disagree that we reject Jesus (or any other "Messenger") if we reject Baha'u'llah. But there are people who reject all of the figures that Baha'i labels Messengers; that doesn't make them uninterested in absolute truth. There are people who are Shinto, for example. I also don't accept any of the "Messengers".
 
RJM said:
It's my job to keep tabs on comments on the forums, and to point out @Tony Bristow-Stagg proselytizing here on an interfaith website that unless everyone believes that Baha'u'llah has laid down absolute truth for all mankind for 800 years into the future, that they reject Jesus Christ (or Muhammad, or Moses or Krishna, etc)


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Such is life, It is not I that revealed that concept, it was something I shared to discuss. Islam also has this concept.

It is indeed a challenge to us all, it is something I had to consider in my own path to find what purpose life has for us.

I do long to leave this world, hopefully it will be soon, my impatient is my suffering.

God bless all, Regards Tony
 
Craz said:
How will you get people to agree who are the Messengers?
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I have started a thread on this topic, which has so far not resulted in a wide discussion:

Prophecy

There are many prophets of the past. Adam - Prophecy to any human? According to the Muslim teachings, Adam is the first prophet because he received the Word of God. In my understanding, on the background of our present scientific knowledge, Adam is the only person in the traditional row of...
www.interfaith.org www.interfaith.org
Craz said:
For instance, the closest person to a Messenger I have, is Kabir who has admirers/followers/devotees who are non-theists (like myself) as well as strong believers (in God/gods).

I love Kabir because he spoke directly to the people around him. His speaking can be harsh in it's directness and criticism of their way of life and is also very devotional. He never quoted anyone preceding him. He just spoke from his own experiences.

For me Kabir trumps* all the Messengers, because his poetry taken from the 15th century speaks to me today in this 21st century. I have loved Kabir from the time when I was a theist to being a non-theist.

Why not accept that everyone has their own relative truth and enjoy the party together? (a rhetorical question).

(Incidentally, in my small town, I know several Bahais, one of which I introduced to Kabir. I gave her a booklet of his poems which she has enjoyed. She is still a Bahai and I am still me :cool:)

Take care,

Craz
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I didn't even know Kabir so far, just read Wikipedia now. I think I should read something from him.
 
talib-al-kalim said:
I didn't even know Kabir so far, just read Wikipedia now. I think I should read something from him.
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The whole intention of my post was to say that quarrelling about Messengers/Saints etc is really not interfaith(imo).

Surely the messages are more important. There are many other forums where people can argue that their messenger is the one true messenger.

I only mention Kabir as an example. I do not worship him in any way, but think he is a good example of raising the consciousness of humanity above their differences.
 
I think the line of annointed messengers concept may be at root a Twelver Shia doctrine, adapted in Baha'i beyond Islam, to create a more universal (unending) global line of divine messengers?
 
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Peace of God in humility and quietness, imo
 
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Craz said:
The whole intention of my post was to say that quarrelling about Messengers/Saints etc is really not interfaith(imo).
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I totally agree with you. People don't care what I believe, they prefer to know that I care.

Craz said:
Surely the messages are more important. There are many other forums where people can argue that their messenger is the one true messenger.
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We should be able to agree on 'Moral Truths' these are universal, people of all faiths and no faiths can understand morality, and how we should treat each other.
 
Response moved to Prophecy thread:

Prophecy

There are many prophets of the past. Adam - Prophecy to any human? According to the Muslim teachings, Adam is the first prophet because he received the Word of God. In my understanding, on the background of our present scientific knowledge, Adam is the only person in the traditional row of...
www.interfaith.org www.interfaith.org
 
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Craz said:
Surely the messages are more important. There are many other forums where people can argue that their messenger is the one true messenger.
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A point to consider. The Message cannot in any way be separated from the Messenger, they are the embodiment of what they teach, the perfect example of the Message they give, the Word made Flesh, the Absolute Truth, the Apex of understanding we can obtain to in this Matrix.

Without the Messengers, we do not get any choices, we do not get the capacity of rational thought.

So Baha'u'llah has told us we should make no distinction between the Messengers There is absolutely no argument a Baha'i will bring to the discussion, that will offer that only X is a true Messenger.

If all were ro sit down and discuss what criteria we will use to judge a true Messemger, then using those same guidelines for each Messenger, then every True Messenger will stand out from the false.

Regards Tony
 
Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
A point to consider. The Message cannot in any way be separated from the Messenger, they are the embodiment of what they teach, the perfect example of the Message they give, the Word made Flesh, the Absolute Truth, the Apex of understanding we can obtain to in this Matrix.

Without the Messengers, we do not get any choices, we do not get the capacity of rational thought.

So Baha'u'llah has told us we should make no distinction between the Messengers There is absolutely no argument a Baha'i will bring to the discussion, that will offer that only X is a true Messenger.

If all were ro sit down and discuss what criteria we will use to judge a true Messemger, then using those same guidelines for each Messenger, then every True Messenger will stand out from the false.

Regards Tony
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You will never get me to believe that the great messengers/holymen etc are but people who had higher consciousness than the majority around them.

I think many abused this and allowed themselves to be worshipped as higher-than-human beings.
 
Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
I understand we are faced with subjectivity.

Baha'u'llah offered all the Messengers of God are for us Absolute Truth. The call is to unite all the God Given Religions, we make no distinction between any of the Messengers.

Regards Tony
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OK, but like everyone else you are so absorbed in the messenger that the message itself and the application of same seems an aside, or afterthought, if even a thought at all.

This also is not unique to B'hai, it is pretty well universal across religions.

With all due respect, we are still dwelling in the difference between knowledge and wisdom. Knowledge being the understanding that tomato is a fruit, Wisdom being the understanding not to put tomato in a fruit salad.

I will choose Wisdom over Knowledge every time.
 
Faithfulservant said:
I've decided to try to understand where you are coming from because I think it might be to humanize you as other than a mouthpiece for your religion. I know nothing about you other than what you say about your religion and maybe that's my problem.
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We are already human. Your help is not to needed to humanize us.
You are being one of the mouth pieces of your religion.
That is what Bahaollah also did. Collected a few saying that will impress people and published them under his name.
That is what even the earlier messengers did. Nothing new.
Claim of his being a messenger supported his family for four generations till his lineage ended.
His son and great-grandson ex-communicated all members of their own family.
 
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