Tony Bristow-Stagg
One Planet One People Please
Apparently a topic of Absolute Truth, does not really want to explore the possibilities
Regards Tony
Regards Tony
Absolute Truth
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talib-al-kalim
Well-Known Member
talib-al-kalim
Well-Known Member
Can you cite the source?
If you want to believe the New Testament predicts a new Christ update in the elevated station of the Father, go ahead.
I don't think Muslims are fond of anyone belittling their prophet? But Christians just have to smile and put up with strings of farcical new Jesus clones turning their holy scriptures upside down.
Anyway, I'm responding to you because I respect you but I've blocked @Tony Bristow-Stagg and will not respond to any more posts addressed to me in this thread
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talib-al-kalim
Well-Known Member
According to my belief, all prophets are individual humans. The Quran, and Muhammad according to hadith, affirm that Jesus is a messenger of God (together with others) and the Messiah (the only Messiah). Some Christians don't content with this (don't want to start a new trinity discussion), and many Muslim treat Muhammad as the Messenger (the only one to follow), although this is not the message of the Quran.
The New Testament predicts the return of Jesus before the end of time, but imo it doesn't predict réincarnations or similar, it doesn't predict Muhammad, and even less Baha'i ullah.
I let them believe what they want, at least they are not doing harm to others. May God judge, not me.
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
With all due respect, B'hai is only one more in a long list of *subjective* truths. There is nothing unique to B'hai faith to warrant "objective" truth. Objective Truth is by definition Absolute Truth.
Perhaps you are thinking B'hai is "Absolute" subjective truth, but then every religion promotes that very same thing, not realizing all of them are arguing over the menu and forgetting to taste the meal.
Ahanu
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I'm curious about your reading of the following:
". . . those who follow the Messenger the unlettered Prophet, whom they find inscribed in the Torah and the Gospel that is with them, who enjoins upon them what is right, and forbids them what is wrong, and makes things lawful for them, and forbids them bad things, and relieves them of their burden and the shackles that were upon them. Thus those who believe in him, honor him, help him, and follow the light that has been sent down with him; it is they who shall propser" (7.157).
My understanding is this led some Muslims to conclude Muhammad was in those books, but they were later corrupted. This seems to be the most popular approach?
Some Muslims believe the Qur'an is taking a typological approach. It is similar to how Christians read OT passages - such as Isaac carrying wood for the sacrifice typifies Jesus carrying the cross.
Tony Bristow-Stagg
One Planet One People Please
The source is from the Baha'i Writings.
"..Thus hath Muḥammad, the Point of the Qur’án, revealed: “I am all the Prophets.” Likewise, He saith: “I am the first Adam, Noah, Moses, and Jesus.” Similar statements have been made by Imám ‘Alí. Sayings such as these, which indicate the essential unity of those Exponents of Oneness, have also emanated from the Channels of God’s immortal utterance, and the Treasuries of the gems of Divine knowledge, and have been recorded in the Scriptures...."
Also in the Kitab-i-iqan pages 162-164
" ...how many are those who, through failure to understand its meaning, have allowed the term "Seal of the Prophets" to obscure their understanding, and deprive them of the grace of all His manifold bounties! Hath not Muhammad, Himself, declared: "I am all the Prophets?" Hath He not said as We have already mentioned: "I am Adam, Noah, Moses, and Jesus?" Why should Muhammad, that immortal Beauty, Who hath said: "I am the first Adam" be incapable of saying also: "I am the last Adam"? For even as He regarded Himself to be the "First of the Prophets" - that is Adam - in like manner, the "Seal of the Prophets" is also applicable unto that Divine Beauty. It is admittedly obvious that being the "First of the Prophets," He likewise is their "Seal."
This topic requires an extensive exploration of Hadith.
Regards Tony
Tony Bristow-Stagg
One Planet One People Please
I understand we are faced with subjectivity.
Baha'u'llah offered all the Messengers of God are for us Absolute Truth. The call is to unite all the God Given Religions, we make no distinction between any of the Messengers.
Regards Tony
Modesty
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I don't think that's a fair statement. Why would you say that, just because some of us reject Baha'i? I've explored Baha'i as a possibility and I have decided to reject it. That doesn't mean I don't want to "explore the possibilities" of absolute truth, it just means I haven't come to the same conclusion as you. This is an interfaith forum, of course we'll disagree on a lot of stuff.
Tony Bristow-Stagg
One Planet One People Please
Absolute Truth is a challenge to all of us, we are human and cannot really grasp innate infallable knowledge.
The concept is, if we reject one of God's Messengers, we reject them all, inclusive of Jesus. If this is the apex of our knowledge, Is this a position one would want to maintain?
It's worth pursuing, that is, the oneness of the Messengers, if it is the foundation to the unity of humanity.
All the Messengers have something to say about it, Jesus said, in John 8:58 “Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.” Jesus also said I am the First and the Last.
Regards Tony
@Faithfulservant
Don't be fooled. Women are not allowed to be members of the Baha'i leadership, the Universal House of Justice -- for 800 years ahead by Baha'u'llah"s own unchangeable decree.
Sorry, but it's necessary to correct this ...
Bahá'í Library Online
Baha'i articles, books, translations, and historical materials
Corinne True, who appealed to Abdu'l-Bahá to rescind the directive confining membership on the House of justice to men. She received a reply from Abdu'l-Bahá in June 1902 but refrained from sharing it with the Chicago Bahá'ís until the fall of that year. The letter read:
"Know thou, O handmaid, that in the sight of Bahá, women are accounted the same as men, and God hath created all humankind in his own image, and after His own likeness. That is, men and women alike are the revelers of His names and attributes, and from the spiritual viewpoint there is no difference between them.... The House of justice, however, according to the explicit text of the Law of God, is confined to men, this for a wisdom of the Lord God's, which will ere long be made manifest as clearly as the sun at high noon. As to you, O ye other handmaids who are enamored of the heavenly fragrances arrange ye holy gatherings, and found ye Spiritual Assemblies, for these are the basis for spreading the sweet savors of God, exalting His Word, uplifting the lamp of His grace, promulgating His religion and promoting His Teachings, and what bounty is there greater than this."
EDIT: Women and men are equal, but men are more equal than women?
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Craz
Well-Known Member
How will you get people to agree who are the Messengers?
For instance, the closest person to a Messenger I have, is Kabir who has admirers/followers/devotees who are non-theists (like myself) as well as strong believers (in God/gods).
I love Kabir because he spoke directly to the people around him. His speaking can be harsh in it's directness and criticism of their way of life and is also very devotional. He never quoted anyone preceding him. He just spoke from his own experiences.
For me Kabir trumps* all the Messengers, because his poetry taken from the 15th century speaks to me today in this 21st century. I have loved Kabir from the time when I was a theist to being a non-theist.
Why not accept that everyone has their own relative truth and enjoy the party together? (a rhetorical question).
(Incidentally, in my small town, I know several Bahais, one of which I introduced to Kabir. I gave her a booklet of his poems which she has enjoyed. She is still a Bahai and I am still me
)Take care,
Craz
*no pun intended
Tony Bristow-Stagg
One Planet One People Please
We can consider that women since the mid 1800's have been slowly gaining equality. One of the first Women Martyrs for Equality was Tahirih, who removed her veil amongst a congregation of Bab'i, the commotions were numerous.
"The status of woman in former times was exceedingly deplorable, for it was the belief of the Orient that it was best for woman to be ignorant. It was considered preferable that she should not know reading or writing in order that she might not be informed of events in the world. Woman was considered to be created for rearing children and attending to the duties of the household. If she pursued educational courses, it was deemed contrary to chastity; hence women were made prisoners of the household. The houses did not even have windows opening upon the outside world. Bahá’u’lláh destroyed these ideas and proclaimed the equality of man and woman. He made woman respected by commanding that all women be educated, that there be no difference in the education of the two sexes and that man and woman share the same rights. In the estimation of God there is no distinction of sex. One whose thought is pure, whose education is superior, whose scientific attainments are greater, whose deeds of philanthropy excel, be that one man or woman, white or colored, is entitled to full rights and recognition; there is no differentiation whatsoever...." — The Promulgation of Universal Peace
Yet for reasons yet to be known, (we are told it will be as plain as the noonday sun in the duture) God did make the election to the Universal House of Justice an exemption for women.
Personalty I see it is a bounty so they can commit to building strong united communities in an age that morals have declined and war still rages around the plant.
The key is, that there are no individual leaders in the Baha'i Faith, there is the Universal House of Justice, who is currently nine members, who are elected 5 yearly by both men and women from the representativesof all the National SpiritualAssemblies that Women do seeve on, this is yearly and not 4 yearly.
Regards Tony
Tony Bristow-Stagg
One Planet One People Please
Thanks for the input, that is great.
I think one day we will all decide to sit down and talk about it, free of prejudices, so who know what that consultation will bring about.
Regards Tony
Tony Bristow-Stagg
One Planet One People Please
I see it is about enabling women to serve where they are most needed. The women are the compassionate, the women are the peacemakers. They will be the bringers of Universal Peace, not by being elected to the Universal House of Justice, but by having open to them many paths to National and local service.Bahá'í Library Online
Baha'i articles, books, translations, and historical materialsbahai-library.com
Corinne True, who appealed to Abdu'l-Bahá to rescind the directive confining membership on the House of justice to men. She received a reply from Abdu'l-Bahá in June 1902 but refrained from sharing it with the Chicago Bahá'ís until the fall of that year. The letter read:
"Know thou, O handmaid, that in the sight of Bahá, women are accounted the same as men, and God hath created all humankind in his own image, and after His own likeness. That is, men and women alike are the revelers of His names and attributes, and from the spiritual viewpoint there is no difference between them.... The House of justice, however, according to the explicit text of the Law of God, is confined to men, this for a wisdom of the Lord God's, which will ere long be made manifest as clearly as the sun at high noon. As to you, O ye other handmaids who are enamored of the heavenly fragrances arrange ye holy gatherings, and found ye Spiritual Assemblies, for these are the basis for spreading the sweet savors of God, exalting His Word, uplifting the lamp of His grace, promulgating His religion and promoting His Teachings, and what bounty is there greater than this."
EDIT: Women and men are equal, but men are more equal than women?
Regards Tony
When I worked as a salesman we were given a list of possible objections to the product as an essential part of the training and how to answer them. The object mostly was to gloss over the issue and close the sale
Tony Bristow-Stagg
One Planet One People Please
Let's hope, given that choice, a person remained Christain and honest.
I actually tried to be a homeware salesman well before I was a Baha'i and they tried ro sell that rubbish to me, the obvious dishonesty of the approach made me say I am Out-of-here, but unfortunately it took a few days and my Sister and Mother had been sold the package first. Yet my mother had them for 50 years and the cupboards are now only free of them as my mother passed on and my father is in age care.
So after 40 years of reflecting on these passages and Laws, I offered an honest and reasoned reply.
I know there are people that will dwell on this and will not ever look to see what the wisdom is, so this is the last reply I will offer to you on this topic.
I thought I was on ignore. Regards Tony.
Faithfulservant
Well-Known Member
There are several things for me that I cannot accept based on scripture one is saying that God is unknowable.. that Jesus was just a manifestation of God and the progressive revelation making Him the least of the manifestations... That sin does not have eternal consequences... That God would simply do away with nearly 4000 years of bible history and Jesus reason for coming all for what?? That we should all reconcile under one religion.
Revelation speaks of a one world religion and the false prophet. I would still point out that Baha'i picks and chooses what to take from the bible and discards the rest. There is a reason that the bible is the number 1 bestseller.
Mostly I cannot accept anything that makes Jesus a liar. Baha'i would make Jesus a liar.
Revelation speaks of a one world religion and the false prophet. I would still point out that Baha'i picks and chooses what to take from the bible and discards the rest. There is a reason that the bible is the number 1 bestseller.
Mostly I cannot accept anything that makes Jesus a liar. Baha'i would make Jesus a liar.