Tackling the hard questions and quandaries of Faith

Well look, Baha'i and Muslims have their beliefs, and that's for them to tell and me to learn. But when they outright attack my beliefs, and tell me to modify my beliefs -- the Trinity for instance because they say so -- that's for me to defend and sparks may fly -- especially Baha'i when they pay lip-service to respecting the beliefs of others? Then I will go in and point out the problems and inconsistencies with their own beliefs, as I perceive?

Leave my religion alone. Tell me about yours?
I wish @theMadJW were in this thread. Sort of...
Or equally, that either a couple of non Trinitarian Christians were in this thread or that, at least for the purpose of this conversation, that I were more thoroughly catechized in / invested in the nonTrinitarian theologies that I lean towards. Interested in what someone who was devoutly in the camp of a nonTrinitarian denomination would make of these same things. The challenges to the Trinity wouldn't bother them, but, the expansion of prophecy and message beyond the Bible, where they would feel that revelation was closed... would be an interesting take.
 
@Tony Bristow-Stagg

To me the Father symbolises in human terms the pure, unchanging and eternal vertical axis of Spirit, while the Son represents Christ crucified between heaven and earth on the horizontal axis of nature limited by time and space, ever changing and bound fo death.

There's so much mystery and wisdom in the incarnation of Jesus the Christ. None of the other prophets including Muhammad (pbuh) made themselves messiah Christ, equal to Jesus.

This is great, it makes Trinitarian theology not make my head spin... comprehensible rather than incomprehensible...
 
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What if.. have you asked what if you're wrong?
my own personal experiences with Him would never allow me to question what if I'm wrong.
???

What if everyone wondered sometimes if they're wrong?
I wrote a little about my beliefs/approach in another thread, Absolute Truth, post #130.
I like my theory, but I generally used to assume that it was, if not wrong, under-informed. I hypothesized that one or several religions might "have it right" somehow. If only I could understand their claims enough to recognize they were right? If only they could answer my quizzing or challenges with enough info to make them make sense to me? To make it clear they had it right and other religions didn't?
What if instead of my theory being true, some religions or several really do have it right?
(Because that was my other theory, that some religion, probably Judaism, "had it right")
But never able to find enough evidence from anyone that anybody's 'theory' (my word) emerged a clear winner over other "theories"
 
should imagine he dismissed this as did everyone else it addresses, as another example of a self-declared prophet.
Oh wherefore didst not thou Pope give ear unto that which the Dove of Eternity* warbleth upon the twigs of the Divine Lote-Tree?

Didst not the inebriation of the wine of My* verses seize thee?

*Baha'u'llah

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That is difficult. Will that happen, maybe eventually, but it would not be for a long while. This key to a Lesser Peace is a unity in our diversity.
I'd say that is a categorical assumption.

I'd say the greater peace is unity in diversity, which would reflect the wondrous theophany of God at this level of manifestation.

If it be God's will that everything be the same, then it would be the same, but the Book of Nature, the First Revelation, shows us that God does not just bring one flower into existence, but all manner of flowers. Here, in this world, there is never one thing – everything speaks of diversity, and yet there is one nature, one sun to which all life turns its face.

That is the wonder of nature, and that is the wonder – the theophany of God.

And this perhaps why the rainbow is a fitting emblem of God's love of creation, being composed of not one colour but a diversity of colours, every colour under the sun.

The unity God seeks is unity of brotherhood – as one people – a unity that transcends the phenomenal. I think your error is assuming 'unity' means 'sameness' – it doesn't, it's more, and greater, than that.

"Say: If ye deny this Revelation, by what proof have ye believed in God?"
I see that challeng would be impossible, for all people, of all Faiths, as to deny one, is the denial of all, to prove one,is to use that proof for all.
Logical flaw ... You saying we have to accept everyone who comes along and says they are a prophet, because they say so?

t is written in prophecy, that humanity as a whole will try to do away with religion and ultimately find that does not work, that Faith is needed for unity. It is then that humanity as a whole will turn back to scriptures to find what teachings are more suited to this age.
The assumption that the Scriptures are suited more or less to a given age is flawed – Scripture is the voice of the eternal, and speaks eternal truths, it speaks to all, everywhere, in every age, without distinction.

If we follow the Kali Yuga, then those teachings speak of a greater and lesser opacity – that perhaps the message of Christ need be watered down even more because if Paul's audience could only accept 'milk, not meat' (1 Corinthians 3:2) – the case is moreso now. Humanity is more self-oriented now than we were then, and thus less receptive.

That is the only ground for the Baha'i dismissal of the doctrine of the Trinity – not that it is wrong, but that it is a truth too rich for the audience – what Buddhism calls a upaya, an expediency. But we're too far down the line for that, so it's a strategem that's destined to fail.

what is recorded in the Baha'i Writings is as valid as any of the Holy Books. The arguments of Faith are as valid as any other.
My point is that the Writings say nothing new, just repeat what has already been said ...

Many years ago there was a terrorist incident in the East. Men entered a hotel complex and were shooting people. A Hindu, who managed to escape, then crawled back into the hotel, to drag the wounded to safety. When asked why, he said that his beliefs required it of him.

I know that belief is the same as my belief. We both believe in God, although we express it in utterly different ways. He is a different religion to me, a different colour, different build, different voice, different in courage, different in every way (except species and gender), and yet, in our hearts we harbour the same faith, hope and love.

That, my brother, is a unity that transcends the phenomenal world. That is something wonderful to behold – it speaks of the Higher.
 
Whis is a quandary I see the Tablet has produced. A quote from that Tablet.
"...Beware lest human learning debar thee from Him Who is the Supreme Object of all knowledge, or lest the world deter thee from the One Who created it and set it upon its course..."
Yeah – Our Guy said that before yours, too.
 
Yeah – Our Guy said that before yours, too.
I see the same Spirit reminded us of what God will teach us from the First to the Last, from the Beginning to the End, the eternal Covernant of God that transcends a flesh body, the Spirit that is Christ.

It is no I that makes them different "Guy's as God is One.

Regards Tony
 
Oh wherefore didst not thou Pope give ear unto that which the Dove of Eternity* warbleth upon the twigs of the Divine Lote-Tree?

Didst not the inebriation of the wine of My* verses seize thee?

*Baha'u'llah

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You are just pointing out the Oneness of the Messenger with God. Baha'u'llah explains this in great detail, I will refrain from posting, but will offer a link to a section of writings that gives this explanation.

Twofold Station of the Messengers

You have chosen to pick these verses out to indicate it is the man Baha'u'llah offering this, yet there is no doubt, yes an absolute, that these are 'Words from God' to the Pope, the Church and humanity as a whole.

Regards Tony
 
I'd say that is a categorical assumption.

I'd say the greater peace is unity in diversity, which would reflect the wondrous theophany of God at this level of manifestation.

If it be God's will that everything be the same, then it would be the same, but the Book of Nature, the First Revelation, shows us that God does not just bring one flower into existence, but all manner of flowers. Here, in this world, there is never one thing – everything speaks of diversity, and yet there is one nature, one sun to which all life turns its face.

That is the wonder of nature, and that is the wonder – the theophany of God.

And this perhaps why the rainbow is a fitting emblem of God's love of creation, being composed of not one colour but a diversity of colours, every colour under the sun.

The unity God seeks is unity of brotherhood – as one people – a unity that transcends the phenomenal. I think your error is assuming 'unity' means 'sameness' – it doesn't, it's more, and greater, than that.
As to what I stated about the Lesser Peace, yes indeed it is a categorical assumption on my part as the greater details are unknown.

I base that statement on what I have read and understood from many other writings given by Baha'u'llah on the topic. So I can support my assumption, but only if you want me to. The Most Great Peace foretold by Baha'u'llah, from what I understand is a universal acceptance of the Message given by Baha'u'llah, Which may be the unity in our diversity) The Lesser Peace is a political unity where we build the foundations of the Most Great Peace, a universal auxiliary language will be chosen, boundaries of Nations will be set, disarmament of weapons of mass destruction will be implemented.

Logical flaw ... You saying we have to accept everyone who comes along and says they are a prophet, because they say so?
That is not what is being said. What is offered by Baha'u'llah is Justuce. That all people take upon themselves and honest and just search of anyone that makes such a claim. The Bible gives the criteria we need to use in our search and judgement.

The assumption that the Scriptures are suited more or less to a given age is flawed – Scripture is the voice of the eternal, and speaks eternal truths, it speaks to all, everywhere, in every age, without distinction.

If we follow the Kali Yuga, then those teachings speak of a greater and lesser opacity – that perhaps the message of Christ need be watered down even more because if Paul's audience could only accept 'milk, not meat' (1 Corinthians 3:2) – the case is moreso now. Humanity is more self-oriented now than we were then, and thus less receptive.

That is the only ground for the Baha'i dismissal of the doctrine of the Trinity – not that it is wrong, but that it is a truth too rich for the audience – what Buddhism calls a upaya, an expediency. But we're too far down the line for that, so it's a strategem that's destined to fail.
That is explained in this link sections 1 to 10

Not that long, but it is a full and valid explanation given by Baha'u'llah.


I posted that link in RJM's reply as well.

My point is that the Writings say nothing new, just repeat what has already been said ...

Many years ago there was a terrorist incident in the East. Men entered a hotel complex and were shooting people. A Hindu, who managed to escape, then crawled back into the hotel, to drag the wounded to safety. When asked why, he said that his beliefs required it of him.

I know that belief is the same as my belief. We both believe in God, although we express it in utterly different ways. He is a different religion to me, a different colour, different build, different voice, different in courage, different in every way (except species and gender), and yet, in our hearts we harbour the same faith, hope and love.

That, my brother, is a unity that transcends the phenomenal world. That is something wonderful to behold – it speaks of the Higher.
Yes Faith in action, in the times of calamity are the greatest indication of our oneness.

The link posted above explains why the Message can be seen in the same light, but also differs.

But to be fair an just, we must acknowledge that there are new concepts.

That all the Messengers are One is a start. Jesus and Muhammad preciously alluded to this, but the detail was not given until Baha'u'llah disposed it in greater detail. Baha'u'llah had many Tablets destroyed, stating that humanity was not yet ready for what was disclosed.

What an opportunity we have missed. One might say the regrets of an immature humanity. (Me included)

Regards Tony
 
You have chosen to pick these verses out to indicate it is the man Baha'u'llah offering this,
Not really. I picked them to show the Glory of God* 'intoxicated with the exuberance of his own verbosity'.

I can just imagine the busy Pope glancing at it and thinking: "Sheesh! Dude! Am I expected to waste half my morning trying to wade through all this stuff? Cut to the chase!"
there is no doubt, yes an absolute, that these are 'Words from God' to the Pope, the Church and humanity as a whole.
Oh, there's no doubt Baha'u'llah genuinely believed himself to be speaking the words of God, like many another crazy narcissist new messiah believing himself to be the the latest incarnation of the Christ, imo

The point is there IS doubt, Tony. There's a world of doubt!

But I think you and I should agree to disagree as my response was addressed to Thomas, but obviously for anybody to read.

* Real name: Ḥusayn`Alí Núrí
 
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Ok, I will stay in the game, for now. Sorry I know I sound harsh, to dearly held Baha'i beliefs, but it is mostly towards the often condescending manner of address by which they are presented, and the dismissive attitude towards others, particularly Trinitarians. So hoping that can be avoided, to prevent arousing emotional reaction:

The Kitáb-i-Aqdas,* the most holy book of the Baha'I faith, written by Bahá’u’lláh, which Baháʼí regard as "revealed" and part of scripture that makes up a revelation from God, places a lot of importance on these principles (amongst others too, of course):

* The transcendent character of the Bahá'í Revelation

* The exalted station of the Author of the Faith

* The supreme importance of the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, "The Most Holy Book"

* The doctrine of the "Most Great Infallibility"

* The twin duties of recognition of the Manifestation and observance of His Laws, and their inseparability

* The end of all learning is the recognition of Him Who is the Object of all knowledge

* The blessedness of those who have recognized the fundamental verity "He shall not be asked of His doings"


Obviously terms like 'the Author of the Faith' and the 'Manifestation' etc, refer to Baha'u'llah himself.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence

We have Baha'u'llah making these claims about himself, and non-Baha'i are asked to take them as true. Why? That is the question? The fact that Baha'u'llah suffered mistreatment and imprisonment is sad, but it is not a justification to accept his claims, or to compare his sufferings to those of Jesus.

Hopefully this will be treated as a concrete question in need of a concrete response, not as an opening to post tracts?

* https://www.bahai.org/library/authoritative-texts/bahaullah/kitab-i-aqdas/
 
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As to what I stated about the Lesser Peace, yes indeed it is a categorical assumption on my part as the greater details are unknown.

I base that statement on what I have read and understood from many other writings given by Baha'u'llah on the topic. So I can support my assumption, but only if you want me to. The Most Great Peace foretold by Baha'u'llah, from what I understand is a universal acceptance of the Message given by Baha'u'llah, Which may be the unity in our diversity)
Then can you not accept diversity of religion, and yet unity of humanity?

The Lesser Peace is a political unity where we build the foundations of the Most Great Peace, a universal auxiliary language will be chosen, boundaries of Nations will be set, disarmament of weapons of mass destruction will be implemented.
Good luck with that.

That is not what is being said. What is offered by Baha'u'llah is Justuce.
No, the logical error is prior to that. It's not about what's said, it's about the requirement to accept everyone who says they're a prophet, or whatever.
 
With due respect, was that called for?

You disagree, I get that, but this seems to me a rather cheap shot.
You're probably right

I would think the same of any radical evangelist of any faith or religion, using these forums as a soapbox to proselytize across multiple threads
 
Ok, I will stay in the game, for now. Sorry I know I sound harsh, to dearly held Baha'i beliefs, but it is mostly towards the often condescending manner of address by which they are presented, and the dismissive attitude towards others, particularly Trinitarians. So hoping that can be avoided, to prevent arousing emotional reaction:
What we can consider, if we are to discuss this RJM, in the light you offer, is that that the trinity and other subjects are addressed by using the Words of other books that people see are from God, being either from the Quran or the Baha'i Writings, thus it is not condescending, but it is indeed a challenge to popular Christian beliefs. This would be exactly what was faced by people in every age that God sent a Messenger.

like many another crazy narcissist new messiah believing himself to be the the latest incarnation of the Christ, imo

Comments such as those are disrespectful, condescending, said without going to the effort to know the person, a key component of Justice. The quality of the person of Baha’u’llah was known by the Muslims, he was highly respected and the popularity he encountered was of great concern to those whose only desire was power over the masses. The issue is, like all Messengers before Him, there came a time when He was called upon to give the Voice (Word) of God to Humamity. The noble and respected character of Baha’u’llah did not change. Stands to reason that such a person would be chosen to give a Message. Jesus was also known for such quality of person, yet there are not as many records for Jesus as there are in support of the person of the Bab and Baha’u’llah.
We have Baha'u'llah making these claims about himself, and non-Baha'i are asked to take them as true. Why? That is the question?
The answer to that question is that with a God given Message, no one is compelled to investigate, no one is being asked to take them as true without and individual investigation of the proofs given, in fact we are asked by Baha'u'llah to investigate, to make sure Baha'u'llah is not a person that would tell an untruth.

If one examines the given Message it can be seen Baha'u'llah does not claim anything for his own self. The Kitab-i-Iqan explains all this in detail.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence

Hopefully this will be treated as a concrete question in need of a concrete response, not as an opening to post tracts?

A quandary for a person with a just heart. The evidence is in the over 100 hundred volumes left by Baha'u'llah and in the myriad of records left to prosperity about the life he lived. If one wants to know if Baha'u'llah is true, how does one do that if they have no interest in looking at the evidence?

What would happen to the zeal of the search, If this evidence contains great challenges to popular held beliefs and the need to reconsider long held doctrine?

Regards Tony
 
quandary for a person with a just heart. The evidence is in the over 100 hundred volumes left by Baha'u'llah and in the myriad of records left to prosperity about the life he lived. If one wants to know if Baha'u'llah is true, how does one do that if they have no interest in looking at the evidence?

What would happen to the zeal of the search, If this evidence contains great challenges to popular held beliefs and the need to reconsider long held doctrine?
That's the point. State them concisely. Don't ask me to read 101 books in convoluted language -- lose the screen of words. Try to use plain words?

Why should anyone believe Baha'u'llah?
 
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Then can you not accept diversity of religion, and yet unity of humanity?
That is not what I am thinking Thomas. I accept humanity as it is, I will submit to the whole by being the most loving and peaceful servant I can find within my own self.

I see oneness contains all our diversity. No two people are identical, no two people see life through the same eyes.

What I personally cannot vision is a Most Great Peace without a majority offering submission unto God's Counsel's, which would mean a universal acceptance and submission to those Councels. Is that not really how both the birth of Christianity and Islam came about on a global scale?

My understanding is that the Lesser Peace is not built on that foundation, it will be built on a political unity, forced upon them by increasing world shaking convulsions and a conflict to end all global conflict.

A lifetime of study will always still leave us with many unanswered questions.

Sorry running out of time, off to work.

Regards Tony
 
That's the point. State them concisely. Don't ask me to read 101 books in convoluted language -- lose the screen of words. Try to use plain words?

Why should anyone believe Baha'u'llah?
I would offer RJM that is answered by asking the same question of Jesus. Why should anyone beleive in Jesus as the Christ? What answer we can provide to that question, is applicable to Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah and all the Prophets.

I see it is submission unto our One God, it is submission unto Love, Justice, Truthfulness and Trustworthiness, it is taking up the cross and following Christ and not our own perceptions.

Regards Tony
 
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