The Mystery of God’s Will Unfolding in this Matrix

[Modesty]

The cause is the neglect of God given advice.

It is like boils, no one knows where they will pop up, but they are symptoms of an unhealthy body.

God gives the remedies for a prosperous and healthy life.

Regards Tony

You didn't answer my question. If not the sexual abuse crisis, what controversy were you referring to, and what does it have to do with monks not marrying? To me this sounds again like you're saying that monks were 'neglecting God given advice' to marry, and thus the sexual abuse crisis resulted? Monks not marrying has nothing to do with rape within the Church.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

You didn't answer my question. If not the sexual abuse crisis, what controversy were you referring to, and what does it have to do with monks not marrying? To me this sounds again like you're saying that monks were 'neglecting God given advice' to marry, and thus the sexual abuse crisis resulted? Monks not marrying has nothing to do with rape within the Church.

I suspect many would not have the courage to explore these topics, I would offer many would not share your view, so I am not pursuing the topic, as it seems it only attracted dissenting views, on the example given.

Here is but one alternative view.

Why Celibacy is Perverse - The Naked Monk

I was taught and trained by Catholic monks and nuns for twelve years. Later on, I became a monk in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition. I have experience of celibacy. I took my vow willingly, and for several reasons. First, it was the price of admission to the spiritual elite of Tibetan Buddhism...

www.thenakedmonk.com

Bye for now. Regards Tony

 

[RJM]

I suspect many would not have the courage to explore these topics, I would offer many would not share your view, so I am not pursuing the topic, as it seems it only attracted dissenting views, on the example given.

Here is but one alternative view.

Why Celibacy is Perverse - The Naked Monk

I was taught and trained by Catholic monks and nuns for twelve years. Later on, I became a monk in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition. I have experience of celibacy. I took my vow willingly, and for several reasons. First, it was the price of admission to the spiritual elite of Tibetan Buddhism...

www.thenakedmonk.com

Bye for now. Regards Tony

A monk is always free to leave @Tony Bristow-Stagg

It's not the life for everyone, but for the few who are called by their vocation.

It is not a sin to leave A Benedictine monk can leave twice and return and renew his vows of poverty, chastity and obedience. On the third time he may not return. The problem would be breaking his vows while still a monk; that would be regarded as sinful.

Jesus Christ was celibate, as was John the Baptist. Was Jesus perverse?

 

[Craz]

If monks of any religion had families and children and material debts and committments to worry about, then they wouldn't be monks.

Distinction between themselves as monks -- to whom Buddha addressed many of his discourses -- and the 'householders' with their worldly commitments -- is central to Buddhism, imo

(I'm not sure if this post fits into this thread, but it is in response to your post.)
When I had my big spiritual experience, I immediately became a celibate and after a year joined an ashram which I suppose is equivalent to a monastery in Christianity/Buddhism.
It was a simple lifestyle for those who had no wordly responsibilities, the alternative lifestyle was householder.
I only left the lifestyle when the guru closed the ashrams.
(Believe it or not, it was not easy to become un-celibate.)
Although, I eventually left religion/guru, those years in the ashram were amongst the most enlightening in relation to self discovery and what I believed God to be.

 

[Niblo]

A monk is always free to leave @Tony Bristow-Stagg

It's not the life for everyone, but for the few who are called by their vocation.

It is not a sin to leave A Benedictine monk can leave twice and return and renew his vows of poverty, chastity and obedience. On the third time he may not return. The problem would be breaking his vows while still a monk; that would be regarded as sinful.

Jesus Christ was celibate, as was John the Baptist. Was Jesus perverse?

Yes.

St. Benedict writes:

‘If a brother, who through his own fault leaveth the monastery or is expelled, desireth to return, let him first promise full amendment of the fault for which he left; and thus let him be received in the last place, that by this means his humility may be tried. If he should leave again, let him be received even a third time, knowing that after this every means of return will be denied him.’ (‘The Rule; Chapter 29’; my emphasis).

The brother is first received at the start of his time in the Community. He is received a second time after his first leaving - having promised full amendment. He is received a third, and final time, should he leave yet again, and then return.

Blessings.

 

[RJM]

Here is but one alternative view.

Why Celibacy is Perverse - The Naked Monk

I was taught and trained by Catholic monks and nuns for twelve years. Later on, I became a monk in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition. I have experience of celibacy. I took my vow willingly, and for several reasons. First, it was the price of admission to the spiritual elite of Tibetan Buddhism...

www.thenakedmonk.com

What an incredibly shallow little punt this is at celibacy in Buddhism and Christianity, imo. Be sure to read the comments after the blog article, lol

 

[Modesty]

I suspect many would not have the courage to explore these topics, I would offer many would not share your view, so I am not pursuing the topic, as it seems it only attracted dissenting views, on the example given.

Here is but one alternative view.

Why Celibacy is Perverse – The Naked Monk
Bye for now. Regards Tony

I actually don't think celibacy is necessary or even a virtuous thing and I agree that some religions have a serious issue with elevating celibacy as the 'purest' way of living and the celibate as some kind of spiritual elite HOWEVER being celibate has NOTHING to do with the sex abuse scandals. There's a massive difference between the rape crisis in the Church and clergy having affairs. Maybe some people can't handle celibacy and so choose to have sexual relationships and break their vows. But there's nobody who can't handle celibacy and therefore commit sexual violence. People who commit sexual violence (which is what the sex abuse crisis in the Church is about) do not do so because they just can't handle the celibate life. They do so because they're predators who need intensive help.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

A monk is always free to leave @Tony Bristow-Stagg

It's not the life for everyone, but for the few who are called by their vocation.

It is not a sin to leave A Benedictine monk can leave twice and return and renew his vows of poverty, chastity and obedience. On the third time he may not return. The problem would be breaking his vows while still a monk; that would be regarded as sinful.

Jesus Christ was celibate, as was John the Baptist. Was Jesus perverse?

This OP was not looking to tarnish all those that lived their life for God in Love, purity and high morals.

My thought was when God joined the letters B and E together, creation came into being.

Thus when God says we give the Monks Leave to marry, this sets a path for the future that can not to be neglected, as it contains a wisdom beyond our understanding. One aspect I consider is that Gid has again ordained that a strong family unit is required is humanity is to progress. Neglect of this will bring about a myriad of conflicting issues.

Much can be discussed. To explore where it all went wrong, is to enable a path of change, but to explore this, one would have to also explore how an institution kept this in-house for many hundreds of years and under what authority was this done? In the end there has been no justice for many victims. It appears this may not be a place to discuss these issues.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

What an incredibly shallow little punt this is at celibacy in Buddhism and Christianity, imo. Be sure to read the comments after the blog article, lol

I agree you are correct with that observation. It was shallow, a post born from frustration.

Now you can be honest, how deeply are you looking at this topic?

Regards Tony

 

[RJM]

Thus when God says we give the Monks Leave to marry, this sets a path for the future that can not to be neglected,

No. When Baha'u'llah represents himself as the word of God, and then tries to talk about married monks it shows a total misunderstanding of what the life of a monk is -- marriage, children and material attachments are the antithesis of everything a monk is. Talk about married priests if you like, and it may soon come -- but to talk about married monks is like talking about women being slightly pregnant.

It's a contradiction in terms.

It has nothing to do with sexual abuse in the Church. Or elsewhere. You are barking up the wrong tree, Tony, by trying to get rid of monks, imo

 

[RJM]

You are supposed to accept and embrace the traditions of other religions, not to keep hammering on at the Catholic Church. I really don't believe that your attacks against other religious beliefs and traditions are representative of the Baha'i philosophy, actually

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

I actually don't think celibacy is necessary or even a virtuous thing and I agree that some religions have a serious issue with elevating celibacy as the 'purest' way of living and the celibate as some kind of spiritual elite HOWEVER being celibate has NOTHING to do with the sex abuse scandals. There's a massive difference between the rape crisis in the Church and clergy having affairs. Maybe some people can't handle celibacy and so choose to have sexual relationships and break their vows. But there's nobody who can't handle celibacy and therefore commit sexual violence. People who commit sexual violence (which is what the sex abuse crisis in the Church is about) do not do so because they just can't handle the celibate life. They do so because they're predators who need intensive help.

This is important, it takes a lot to cover all this up for centuries. It means perpetrators and victims where handled by those who based themselves in righteousness. The victims for centuries saw no justice.

What the OP is suggesting, is that when God gives new commands, that the old way which was instigated by men, not by God becomes manifested in its error.

Regards Tony

 

[RJM]

This is important, it takes a lot to cover all this up for centuries. It means perpetrators and victims where handled by those who based themselves in righteousness. The victims for centuries saw no justice.

What the OP is suggesting, is that when God gives new commands, that the old way which was instigated by men, not by God becomes manifested in its error.

Regards Tony8

No it misses the point that only a small segment of celibates commit sexual abuse. Like any other part of the population. Using sexual abuse as an argument against religious celibacy is not the proper argument. The fact it was covered up is a separate issue.

Baha'u'llah wants more people born to praise himself, at a time of unmanageable population crisis

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

You are supposed to accept and embrace the traditions of other religions, not to keep hammering on at the Catholic Church. I really don't believe that your attacks against other religious beliefs and traditions are representative of the Baha'i philosophy, actually

I do not see how change can happen without recognition of the mistakes we have made in the past.

In Australia it started with a 'Sorry to the Australian Aboriginals. Now we are having a referendum on 'The Voice', a xhange to our constitution.

The Catholic Church also needs to identify where it has made mistakes, yet it will be difficult, as many years have moulded an Institution that does not like change.

None of us like change. We need to acknowledge the mistakes made, to learn from them. It wipe them under the carpet.

Discussion on tgese issues is not attacks. Only if there is something to hide, should this be an issue.

As a Baha'i I am willing to discuss a lot about the emerging Faith of the Babiand Baha'i, as many have made mistakes, which in turn tarnished the growth of the Babi and Baha'i Faith.

Regards Tony

 

[RJM]

do not see how change can happen without recognition of the mistakes we have made in the past.

They are recognized

None of us like change. We need to acknowledge the mistakes made, to learn from them. It wipe them under the carpet.

Discussion on tgese issues is not attacks. Only if there is something to hide, should this be an issue.

This has nothing to do with the monks

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

No it misses the point that only a small segment of celibates committ sexual abuse. Like any other part of the population. Using sexual abuse as an argument against religious celibacy is not the proper argument. Baha'u'llah wants more people born to praise himself, at a time of unmanageable population crisis

Look deeper. The way this was handled was also a great miscarriage of justice.

The advice of Baha’u’llah goes beyond the acts committed by a few, right to the heart of the institution that investigated and determined the outcomes. The people in control.

It boils down to the pillar of Justice. Every one of us cries out for justice for all those that are wrongly accused, abused, persecuted and oppressed

Regards Tony

 

[RJM]

Look deeper. The way this was handled was also a great miscarriage of justice.

The advice of Baha’u’llah goes beyond the acts committed by a few, right to the heart of the institution that investigated and determined the outcomes. The people in control.

It boils down to the pillar of Justice. Every one of us cries out for justice for all those that are wrongly accused, abused, persecuted and oppressed

Regards Tony

Right. So how does this affect Buddhism or Hinduism?

Are you talking about religious celibacy, or tilting at the Catholic Church?

Your slip is showing, Tony

Whatever ... lots of people read this stuff

 

[RJM]

Baha'u'llah didn't even really know about the existence of Buddhist and Hindu celibates as of any relevance to his parochial middle eastern Abrahamic concerns, imo

 

[Modesty]

The Improbability of Converting Everyone to the Baha’i Faith

This article was originally published on another blog, Ex-Baha’i, which I removed from the web. The original publication date was December 9, 2014. … Are you still waiting for “en…

christianexbahai.wordpress.com

I found this blog from an ex-Baha'i that provides an interesting perspective on people not heeding Baha'ull'ah. Her whole blog is interesting. Disclaimer that she is coming from a Christian perspective and so of course its not unbiased, and I'm not posting this to target Baha'i. I just found she's echoed some of the complaints other people have addressed here on Baha'i attempts to convert others. She explains Baha'i doctrines in a way I found easier to comprehend, as well.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Right. So how does this affect Buddhism or Hinduism?

Are you talking about religious celibacy, or tilting at the Catholic Church?

Your slip is showing, Tony

Whatever ... lots of people read this stuff

I see it is addressing all Monks in the Tablets, no matter what Faith, all that call on God, even if only addressed to the Pope..

".....O concourse of monks! The fragrances of the All-Merciful have wafted over all creation. Happy the man that hath forsaken his desires, and taken fast hold of guidance. He, indeed, is of those who have attained unto the presence of God in this Day, a Day whereon commotions have seized the dwellers of the earth and filled with dismay all save those who have been exempted by God, He Who layeth low the necks of men...."

Regards Tony