The consequences of our neglect.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
The argument is that it perfect to acheive that outcome. I quoted two passages from Baha'u'llah where he quotes the Quran above to RJM and posted the link below. They are the source of my thoughts.
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Well it's not for me to explain the deeper meaning of the Baha'i symbolism to you.

Suffice to say that, on this occasion, the texts say what I have been saying.
 
Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
Shoghi Effendi studied English from his early childhood, for the sole aim that he could translate the writings into English in the best way possible.
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There's two sides to this.

wikki:
"Early Modern English is a stage in the evolution of the English language from the late 15th to mid-to-late 17th century."

Whether a 200-year moment in the evolution of the English language was "the best English" is a matter of taste, but certainly the deftness and profound simplicity of a Shakespearean text, for example, is a million miles away from the – to anglicised eyes – florrid and verbose style of Arabic and Persian poetic forms – although William had his moments!

The second side, and far more important, is that if your audience does not speak Early Modern English, they won't understand its nuance – then much of the meaning is lost. Which is a pity ...

Unless you know the distinction between 'you', 'thee' and 'thou' (as Shakespeare did) – you've missed something significant in the text. To assume 'thee' or 'thou' interchangeable for 'you', is wrong. And if you don't know the rule, you won't get it.

(As, for example, the rule concerning 'eth' at the end of words, eg standeth or sitteth.)

The same critique applies to the KJV, by the way – so the Baha'i are not alone.

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If I were in charge of Baha'i texts, I'd employ two forms:
1: A 'scholars' version' – ideally an interlinear translation for those who don't read the text in the original;
2: A 'common' or 'plain English' version more accessible to the everyday reader.
Both with explicatory notes and annotations.

Hopefully, at some future point, a Baha'i scholar will render the community such a service.

+++
 
Thomas said:
If I were in charge of Baha'i texts, I'd employ two forms:
1: A 'scholars' version' – ideally an interlinear translation for those who don't read the text in the original;
2: A 'common' or 'plain English' version more accessible to the everyday reader.
Both with explicatory notes and annotations.

Hopefully, at some future point, a Baha'i scholar will render the community such a service.
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From what I've read, I don't think the Baha'i hierarchy allows this. There doesn't seem to be much theological or scholarly freedom for Baha'i scholars.
 
Thomas said:
If I were in charge of Baha'i texts, I'd employ two forms:
1: A 'scholars' version' – ideally an interlinear translation for those who don't read the text in the original;
2: A 'common' or 'plain English' version more accessible to the everyday reader.
Both with explicatory notes and annotations.

Hopefully, at some future point, a Baha'i scholar will render the community such a service.
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Firstly there are many provisional translations of writings yet to have an official translation. (Also many available that have subsequently had an official translation).

Secondly, I see the time will come when the wrirings will be translated from Arabic and Persian into the 'World Auxiliary Language'.

Shoghi Effendi always offered his translations were not final.

Meanwhile, I see there was adequate reasons supplied as to why Shoghi Effendi chose the style he did. As the Universal House of Justice has chosen to continue that style, then that is what the standard will be, until it is not. 😉

This is an example of a provisional translation by two different people.

bahai-library.com

Wisdom of Burying the Dead in the Earth: Tablet of Cremation

Tablet to Laura Clifford Barney regarding the wisdom of burying the dead in the Earth, also known as Tablet of Cremation, in two translations: one by Marzieh Gail, one by 'Ali Kuli Khan.
bahai-library.com bahai-library.com

The research and scholarship for an official translation are undertaken by the 'Centre of the Study of the Texts'. A team of Academics appointed ro this task.

Regards Tony
 
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Modesty said:
From what I've read, I don't think the Baha'i hierarchy allows this. There doesn't seem to be much theological or scholarly freedom for Baha'i scholars.
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It was done on purpose (to fool people). Shoghi in all probability did know better English.
 
Modesty said:
Can officially translated texts be translated into simpler/modernized English? I’ve never enjoyed reading 17th century or 17th century-esque English. Anything pre 1700 gives me a headache lol.
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I can not answer for future decisions yet ro come. I do not see alternate translations happening any time soon. 😃👍

All the best Regards Tony
 
Aupmanyav said:
If there was a God to give us love, we would have found unity by now. This proves non-existence of any God.
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We all have love, or don't you have any love? Some people have it hidden behind anger or disappointment, sure, and some few people have a dissocial disease I don't know how that feels, but at least the possibility to love is given to us.
We all who are discussing here have love, and most of us are aware of this treasure. Nevertheless, we don't have unity in religion.
 
Thomas said:
Unless you know the distinction between 'you', 'thee' and 'thou' (as Shakespeare did) – you've missed something significant in the text.
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There's also "ye". But that's a distinction that is only made by some educated people of that time. It doesn't contribute to translations from other languages, be it Hebrew, Greek, Arabic, Latin (nor any modern language I know); many even omit the personal pronoun unless it's emphasised. It's even an advantage of modern English that such interpretation of the pronouns is unnecessary because a translation is better if it leaves the ambiguities of the original text as long as they are the same in the target language.
 
Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
I can not answer for future decisions yet ro come. I do not see alternate translations happening any time soon. 😃👍

All the best Regards Tony
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Anyone is allowed to translate the Quran or the Bible, and the users would decide whether it's helpful. There's no "official" Quran translation, and the one that is cited most (Sahee International) is quite bad in my eyes because it contains a lot of questionable interpretations.
 
talib-al-kalim said:
There's also "ye". But that's a distinction that is only made by some educated people of that time...
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I disagree. As I mentioned, it's still the case in some old dialect (common-folk) forms ...

I would still say there's no valid reason to use Early Modern English to translate a text.
 
Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
Thank you RJM. I understand that the kingdom of heaven is an inner state.

I put it too you. If every human obtained that inner state of Love, then would not the earth also reflect that inner kingdom?

Was not Jesus a perfect example of what we can be on earth!

All the best and Regards Tony
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On the Kingdom inside and outside, the Gospel collection "of Thomas" cites (3:1-3),


"If those who lead you say to you: ‘Look, the kingdom is in the sky!’
then the birds of the sky will precede you.
If they say to you: ‘It is in the sea,’ then the fishes will precede you.
Rather, the kingdom is inside of you, and outside of you."
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Indeed, all understanding of His message comes short if you don't have it in your own soul, and it comes short as well if you think it is only an individual matter within yourself.
 
Thomas said:
I disagree. As I mentioned, it's still the case in some old dialect (common-folk) forms ...

I would still say there's no valid reason to use Early Modern English to translate a text.
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I won't play the specialist in 16th century English. I found "ye" in a kind of vocative.
In Continental Anglo-Saxon dialects, the forms are mainly found in declinations (dou/du/dū, dīn, jē, je), western dialects use "je" also in the nominative case. "You" is somehow in the middle between "je" and "dou/du (aways pronounce "j" as "y")

Early 20th century example (Pickthall): "O ye who believe! Choose not your fathers nor your brethren for friends if they take pleasure in disbelief rather than faith."
 
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talib-al-kalim said:
Peace on earth is a good teaching but there are many who don't listen to the Teacher.
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There will never be peace on earth. It is a false teaching. The lion will always hunt the zebra and powerful men and armies and nations will always rise and rule for a time.

There is only the peace in the heart that is in the world but not of the world that passes all understanding, imo
 
RJM said:
There will never be peace on earth. It is a false teaching. The lion will always hunt the zebra and powerful men and armies and nations will always rise and rule for a time.

There is only the peace in the heart that passes all understanding, in the world but not of the world, imo
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So you discard the Message from Jesus?
None of the Kingdom of God has come true...
 
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